Why Hold Tournaments?

Pushout

Pushout

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was going to post this in the main forum, but thought it might be better posted here, as room owners are usually the ones running tournaments, at least at the local level.
Now, I have to admit, I've never given much thought to why rooms have tournaments. Do you hold tournaments to make money? To give the players a chance to use their skills in a tournament setting? To give them something to do, other than sit around trying to make games? {and in some cases, just not spend money and soak up the ambiance}
I'd really like to hear some response on this one, if it doesn't go here, I'll post it in the main forum. Now I gotta go start a 12 hundred word paper for school.
 
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Pushout said:
Now, I have to admit, I've never given much thought to why rooms have tournaments. Do you hold tournaments to make money? To give the players a chance to use their skills in a tournament setting? To give them something to do, other than sit around trying to make games? {and in some cases, just not spend money and soak up the ambiance}
I'd really like to hear some response on this one, if it doesn't go here, I'll post it in the main forum.
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Tournaments CAN make money if you set them up right and you have plenty of food and drink and candy and alcohol and other things to sell. In many cases the entry fee goes back into the pot. The table time is free or greatly discounted. Plus, you lose the income you would normally be making on those tables. So it adds up. We rarely have tournaments at our room simply because we are not set up for it. We have no alcohol so tournaments and league play is a big money loser. We do it to reward the regulars and get others interested in playing. I am no expert in planning but I know with different formats dealing with green fees and kickback % from your vendor or adding a sponsor like a cuemaker or local restaurant...it can be fun AND slightly profitable. The rewards are more long term than short term. If you break even on tournaments they are worth it in the long run because people will talk about your place and who played who; which is free advertising. I always advise places to make some of the prizes cheaper and give them to more people to spread goodwill. Giving everyone that lost in the first round a coupon for free pool one day the next week is one idea. They will get free pool and invite some friend at full price and you have drinks on top of that. Wish I had more ideas but like I said. I hear everything second hand about tournaments. Just think long term in your planning. Good luck.
 
Pushout said:
I was going to post this in the main forum, but thought it might be better posted here, as room owners are usually the ones running tournaments, at least at the local level.
Now, I have to admit, I've never given much thought to why rooms have tournaments. Do you hold tournaments to make money? To give the players a chance to use their skills in a tournament setting? To give them something to do, other than sit around trying to make games? {and in some cases, just not spend money and soak up the ambiance}
I'd really like to hear some response on this one, if it doesn't go here, I'll post it in the main forum. Now I gotta go start a 12 word paper for school.
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First of all, let me say that I think tournaments are mainly to promote pool, and to bring in competition for my customers which will help them improve their games. I never made money from running a tournament, and I did not expect too. Having tournaments for me was a form of advertising a new pool hall and to give something back to my customers for their patronage of my business.

I ran tournaments the first year I was open. I had a Nine Ball tournament on Wed Nights and a Eight Ball tournament on Sat. I had a $5 entry fee, and $2 Green fee, and I matched the pot 50% if I had less than 15 players and 100% with 15 or more players. I also took an extra dollar from those who wanted to participate for a break and run pot, which I start with a$100.

I sell beer, limited Microwavable Food, Snacks, and soft drinks / coffee. After the first year I stopped having open tournaments. I learned very quickly that this type of tournament attracts people who are re-lying on placing in the tournament to eat. These people never come into my business any other time, and even during the tournament they spend no money. Now this I really expected anyway, the main problem I had with this was the same people that never spent any money, always complained about something. I would hear them say that I needed to add more money, or there were problems with the tables, or others things that pissed me off. So, finally during a tournament where things were being said openly, I told these individuals, also openly they were no longer welcome.

Since that time, I only run tournaments for my regular customers. This way I am giving something directly back to my regular customers for their support of my business. I also make the first place winner sit out for 2 weeks which spreads the wealth much more evenly. In the future I am going to rate my regulars according to their abilities and I am going to set up a handicap system that is similar to others used else where today. This way, no one needs to sit out if they take first place. I am also considering a in house pool league for my regular customers.

Since, I have stopped having open tournaments my bottom line has increased not decreased. I also have more people participating in my tournaments because of the systems I have put in place.

By the way, the customers that I lost when I went from an open tournament to a regulars tournament were not really a loss financially to my business anyway(THEY NEVER SPENT ANY MONEY) so I think things have turned out better than before.

I hope this helps!!!
 
Thanks for the replys. Someone I know opened a room locally about a year ago. He's tried several different ways to hold tournaments, including an 8 ball and 9 ball state championship. He didn't do too bad on the 9 ball, but lost at least $3500 on the 8 ball. Guaranteed 16 places in the 8 ball and had 18 players. The guy expects to make money on tournaments, and sets them up, even the weekly ones, with this in mind. Of course, his experience in pool amounted to a couple years of league play prior to opening the room. VERY big eqo, and won't listen to the people who know better. Most of his business now comes from league play, mostly bangers who don't know when they are playing on lousy tables with bad lighting and being overcharged on everything they buy. Most of the local players now avoid the place like the plague, me included. Very sad.
 
Pushout said:
Thanks for the replys. Someone I know opened a room locally about a year ago. He's tried several different ways to hold tournaments, including an 8 ball and 9 ball state championship. He didn't do too bad on the 9 ball, but lost at least $3500 on the 8 ball. Guaranteed 16 places in the 8 ball and had 18 players. The guy expects to make money on tournaments, and sets them up, even the weekly ones, with this in mind. Of course, his experience in pool amounted to a couple years of league play prior to opening the room. VERY big eqo, and won't listen to the people who know better. Most of his business now comes from league play, mostly bangers who don't know when they are playing on lousy tables with bad lighting and being overcharged on everything they buy. Most of the local players now avoid the place like the plague, me included. Very sad.
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A little off subject but you shouldnt say "Very sad" . The bangers that play on lousy tables and they pay retail for a $60 cue without haggling and trying to trade in cues all the time. Those people SUPPORT POOL. They spend more on drinks and candy and snacks. They dont have these absurd expectations that you should cash their last paycheck or give them a ride somewhere after work. They are paying the bills for room owners. Great players who nitpick every aspect of a pool table will leave a perfect pool table to play next door to save $2. Loyalty is rare in the pool world. They want a cue for 20% UNDER cost and then tell everyone you screwed them. The regulars who like to just hang out all day will complain about your air conditioning not being turned up high enough...but wont play pool to pay for it. So dont knock the bangers please. If not for them, I would not have a business for all the regulars to hang out and complain about the free Cable TV, Free Airconditioning, Free Snacks, etc etc etc. If you want to be in business in the long run. Know who is paying your bills. Their opinions mean more than anyone elses. "God Bless the Bangers" :)

Economics of todays pool rooms are different from the "old days". There are not enough serious pool players in any one market to support pool rooms. Thats why more and more pool rooms are converting to entertainment centers. Without alcohol, 80% of rooms would go under. Everyone complained when we put in smoke eaters, a juke box, video games etc. They hated when I had an air hockey game or a bumper pool table because it wasnt like "The Hustler". But all those things are needed to pay the overhead. So instead I put in candy machines. Instead I raise the price of a cue to make ends meet. The general public just has to understand something in Economics 101; one way or another THEY pay for all the expenses.

The guys and girls that are excited to play pool..but can't make a single two ball run?

There is your future. They will come back just because it is fun. No strings attached.
They will pay the bill and be happy to come back.
 
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I'm sorry, I've not been exposed to the players just hanging around all day and NOT spending money. Where I played in NY, the players ate at the pool room, sometimes more than once a day, most played or practiced EVERY DAY, complained very mildly, if at all. The sad part is that I expected much more from a guy who doesn't know jack about the game and has too big an ego to learn. My experience is, if you treat the players decent, they respect it. There are always some bums, but in my experience, most support the game and the room. When the bigger tournaments come, which is what this is about, by the way, where are the bangers? They never show up to support anything, come in once a week for an hour or so. The players were there everyday, spending money and supporting the room and the game. So don't tell me what the bangers do for you.
 
I take issue with the without alcohol thing and have for years. The rooms in NYS got by just fine for years without booze. I guess I was fortunate to play where I did all those years. Everybody in SC said they couldn't get by when they took out the poker machines, but I haven't heard of anyone closing because of it. I'm a bit harsh about the nonplayers, but I've never played where they were really the bread and butter of any room. They are necessary, to help pay the bills, I'll grant you, but a lot of people don't know how to treat the players, like the guy I spoke of. Too many people get in this business without any real understanding of what it takes. You do need to cater to both groups to really make it work. I apologize if I seemed to go off on anybody. I really had no intention of getting into this, because I feel rather strongly about it. I worked where I played, too, by the way.
 
Man, I swear you are talking about my place.Every thing you have said goes on here. I stopped having monthly $20 tournaments because the only time alot of these players would come in was to take the money and run ,not spend any money ,want free table time to gamble on, complain about being too hot ,too cold, not serve their kind of beverage (alcholol free room).I started having weekly $5 tournaments for the regulars,giving one on the wire to the ones I feel need it and so far it works. The better players (regulars) don't play every week unless someone comes in that don't usually come but think they are going to get easy money ,so far they have left emptyhanded.16-20 players every week. Going to get off topic a bit but want to know if you think a members only room would work.What Iam thinking about is closing but the regulars which have become good friends would have no place to play.They have come to me asking if I would be willing to do this instead of closing.It's not about the money ,this place has payed it's own bills but not enough to hire someone to work so I don't have be here all the time(I have a day job).It's about all the time spent here especially during the summer months.They want to do this during the summer and then I would re-open in the fall. I have in-house leagues and they enjoy that and so do I .They would pay a membership that would pay the bills while I was closed and each would have a key to play whenever they want.If your not a member you don't play.Like any other place ,it slows down in the summer ,have any of you thought of this and could it work? again sorry about getting off topic.

Paul
 
Reasons

1) Tournaments show people that Pool and Billiards are a sport, and not just an entertainment pasttime. People theat are entertainment minded will skip around and will come and go, depending on their mood.

2) Tournaments reward excellence in the sport. People are drawn to excellence in any sport, Pool is no exception.

3) People that love the sport have a respect and reverence to the sport, equipment, and other players, entertainment minded people do not.

4) Tournaments draw good players, maybe some famous, and spectators alike. Lots of high dollar money games are played around tournaments, and that has an allure for many people.

5) It gets the Pool room recognized, sometimes as a hot spot to go to, which promotes future business.

6) Pool rooms do not usually make money from a tournament other than the sales they have in drinks and food.

7) A Pool room known as a gambling room, and that has good tournaments
spreads like wildfire to all the top players.

8) Real players do not care for the banger or yuppie rooms unless, maybe, some of those yuppies have too much money and like to gamble.

9) Pool room owners should be more aware of the music on their jukebox, it affects the Pool room environment, and is a draw or deterrent for people going to their place.

10) We have 6-8 rooms here (more, but 6-8 main ones), and only 2 are known as gambling rooms.

11) Good paying Tournaments can change a room's image. And, if you don't love the sport, don't buy or start a room, cause you won't get rich.

12) If you are going to start a room and you are not a good educated
businessman, you better find someone that is, or you will have many problems down the road. If you don't know how to develop a full fledged
business plan, how to project budgets, how to track inventory, and how to reconcile financials, you are in over your head. On top on that, you have to have patience, good judgment, and a pleasing personality.
 
Well put....

Snapshot9 said:
1) Tournaments show people that Pool and Billiards are a sport, and not just an entertainment pasttime. People theat are entertainment minded will skip around and will come and go, depending on their mood.

2) Tournaments reward excellence in the sport. People are drawn to excellence in any sport, Pool is no exception.

3) People that love the sport have a respect and reverence to the sport, equipment, and other players, entertainment minded people do not.

4) Tournaments draw good players, maybe some famous, and spectators alike. Lots of high dollar money games are played around tournaments, and that has an allure for many people.

5) It gets the Pool room recognized, sometimes as a hot spot to go to, which promotes future business.

6) Pool rooms do not usually make money from a tournament other than the sales they have in drinks and food.

7) A Pool room known as a gambling room, and that has good tournaments
spreads like wildfire to all the top players.

8) Real players do not care for the banger or yuppie rooms unless, maybe, some of those yuppies have too much money and like to gamble.

9) Pool room owners should be more aware of the music on their jukebox, it affects the Pool room environment, and is a draw or deterrent for people going to their place.

10) We have 6-8 rooms here (more, but 6-8 main ones), and only 2 are known as gambling rooms.

11) Good paying Tournaments can change a room's image. And, if you don't love the sport, don't buy or start a room, cause you won't get rich.

12) If you are going to start a room and you are not a good educated
businessman, you better find someone that is, or you will have many problems down the road. If you don't know how to develop a full fledged
business plan, how to project budgets, how to track inventory, and how to reconcile financials, you are in over your head. On top on that, you have to have patience, good judgment, and a pleasing personality.
Click to expand...

Tap Tap Tap!
 
cueandcushion said:
A little off subject but you shouldnt say "Very sad" . The bangers that play on lousy tables and they pay retail for a $60 cue without haggling and trying to trade in cues all the time. Those people SUPPORT POOL. They spend more on drinks and candy and snacks. They dont have these absurd expectations that you should cash their last paycheck or give them a ride somewhere after work. They are paying the bills for room owners. Great players who nitpick every aspect of a pool table will leave a perfect pool table to play next door to save $2. Loyalty is rare in the pool world. They want a cue for 20% UNDER cost and then tell everyone you screwed them. The regulars who like to just hang out all day will complain about your air conditioning not being turned up high enough...but wont play pool to pay for it. So dont knock the bangers please. If not for them, I would not have a business for all the regulars to hang out and complain about the free Cable TV, Free Airconditioning, Free Snacks, etc etc etc. If you want to be in business in the long run. Know who is paying your bills. Their opinions mean more than anyone elses. "God Bless the Bangers" :)

Economics of todays pool rooms are different from the "old days". There are not enough serious pool players in any one market to support pool rooms. Thats why more and more pool rooms are converting to entertainment centers. Without alcohol, 80% of rooms would go under. Everyone complained when we put in smoke eaters, a juke box, video games etc. They hated when I had an air hockey game or a bumper pool table because it wasnt like "The Hustler". But all those things are needed to pay the overhead. So instead I put in candy machines. Instead I raise the price of a cue to make ends meet. The general public just has to understand something in Economics 101; one way or another THEY pay for all the expenses.

The guys and girls that are excited to play pool..but can't make a single two ball run?

There is your future. They will come back just because it is fun. No strings attached.
They will pay the bill and be happy to come back.
Click to expand...


You know Craig, these people just do not get, but it easy to make judgements without being in a position where you must also make decisions.

By the way, I love Arm Chair Quarter Backs, You have a great day man and a great Easter Sunday!!!!!
 
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It never ceases to amaze me how non-owners know it all. Both Craigs have hit it out of the park regarding this.

Generally speaking, in most places you go anywhere in the country, players get the same rap. Why do you think that is...could it be uhhh...because they earn it?

It has been my experience the past 15 years that at least half the players feel because they play 3 or 4 days in your room, that you owe them something. Well, as far as I know, they didn't just come in and hand me 40.00 for the week, walk out and not play. We created the opportunity for them to do what they do. They play for 15 minutes to one half hour each time they came in, before they even tell you to put them on time (if they tell you). Ask you for a cup of water. Miss shots and constantly blamed the upkeep of the table. Purchase a cup of coffee and ask for a second empty cup so they could share it. Request that you shape their competitor-bought tip on their competitor-bought cue because it's shrooming or too high. I could go on and on. Owners are expected to do a lot for the average $4.00 per hour paid.

On the other hand, if those same players go to Pep Boys, Home Depot, Starbucks, etc., there is no such expectation. They just pay and walk away. What the poster does not understand is we see it from the other side of the counter and it gets OLD. Bangers, as you call them, come in, play, pay for the food, drink, jukebox, candy, more food, more drink, more music, arcades, call for back up in the form of more friends, play more pool buy more food, come up and put their money together to pay the $45.00 table time. NO HASSLES. NO QUESTIONS ASKED.

Now it sounds as though you have the perfect place to play where the players are happy, the owner is happy and there is a proper mix of ball bangers. Either that, or you are looking at the pool world through rose colored glasses my friend.

Pushout, you sound like a typical whinning "player" who doesn't know a darn thing about the business of running a pool hall but has all the answers. If the actual investor doesn't do it YOUR way, you call him egotistical and go your merry way *****in' to anyone that will listen. Now I don't know you, but I would bet my 21 tables that the other room owners have or know of at least 10 more "players" just like you wherever their business is located.

This guy you know may not be doing things to your liking, but at least he's trying...to the tune of about $3500.00 plus.

I could go on and on. But I won't because to some, we sound like we are the whinners. Just try and understand that it is a constant juggling act for owners to stay afloat and make a few dollars. We all know we ain't EVER gonna to get rich from players or bangers. That's just the nature of this beast we fell in love with. Chill out and run some racks.

Gene
 
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Cuedog said:
It never ceases to amaze me how non-owners know it all. Both Craigs have hit it out of the park regarding this.

Generally speaking, in most places you go anywhere in the country, players get the same rap. Why do you think that is...could it be uhhh...because they earn it?

It has been my experience the past 15 years that at least half the players feel because they play 3 or 4 days in your room, that you owe them something. Well, as far as I know, they didn't just come in and hand me 40.00 for the week, walk out and not play. We created the opportunity for them to do what they do. They play for 15 minutes to one half hour each time they came in, before they even tell you to put them on time (if they tell you). Ask you for a cup of water. Miss shots and constantly blamed the upkeep of the table. Purchase a large cup of coffee and ask for a second cup so they could share it. Request that you shape their competitor-bought tip on their competitor-bought cue because it's shrooming or too high. I could go on and on. Owners are expected to do a lot for the average $4.00 per hour paid.

On the other hand, if those same players go to Pep Boys, Home Depot, Starbucks, etc., there is no such expectation. They just pay and walk away. What the poster does not understand is we see it from the other side of the counter and it gets OLD. Bangers, as you call them, come in, play, pay for the food, drink, jukebox, candy, more food, more drink, more music, arcades, call for back up in the form of more friends, play more pool buy more food, come up and put their money together to pay the $45.00 table time. NO HASSLES. NO QUESTIONS ASKED.

Now it sounds as though you have the perfect place to play where the players are happy, the owner is happy and there is a proper mix of ball bangers. Either that, or you are looking at the pool world through rose colored glasses my friend.

Pushout, you sound like a typical whinning "player" who doesn't know a darn thing about the business of running a pool hall but has all the answers. If the actual investor doesn't do it YOUR way, you call him egotistical and go your merry way *****in' to anyone that will listen. Now I don't know you, but I would bet my 21 tables that the other room owners have or know of at least 10 more "players" just like you wherever their business is located.

This guy you know may not be doing things to your liking, but at least he's trying...to the tune of about $3500.00.

I could go on and on. But I won't because to some, we sound like we are the whinners. Just try and understand that it is a constant juggling act for owners to stay afloat and make a few dollars. We all know we ain't EVER gonna to get rich from players or bangers. That's just the nature of this beast we fell in love with. Chill out and run some racks.

Gene
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Well said Gene!!!!!
 
I have run a room now for 16 years here in finland and the same thing has going on here too. The so call"pro players"is never happy whit anything! Evrything has to bee free for them and i dont think if you give evrything free they stil are not happy whit things!!! Now i am doing realy good. My "pro" player move and put own club for them selfes. My customers are 80% so call bangers who come in and just play for fun and they never say how expensiv things are or the taple play wrong. Then other 20% play almost every day but they are realy nice peopel and i am good frend whit them. I have made few things to keep my regulars happy and i have made this things because i want to not that i think i own them somthing! At the moment my taple are full and 3 of them are play bay regulars and 13 is play bay bangers. I am realy hapy how things are now and i think my customers is hapy too:) Whinning players is no more welcome at my place. If they dont like my place then they can go some other place to play and whinning.
 
I am not a room owner, but I would consider myself as a "regular" as you guys have labeled. I agree with everything you all have stated here. It is truly amazing that people always want something for free. I see it all the time at the hall I frequent and it is always the same people. The 'bangers' come in and have a great time (tables, food, jukebox, etc), pay their tab and leave. There is even one guy that comes in... I have never seen him pay for table time. He comes in, waits around for a free game (someone else to pay his table time), and then either finds one or leaves.

I have seen on many occasions, a regular 'whine' about paying the table time for practice 1-2 hours before a tournament starts. I can truly see where all of you are coming from.

I have even gone as far as questioning my tab when I thought it was too low. In this instance, I knew I played for 2.5 hours, but I was only charged 1.5. I kept asking are you sure? Even when the lady said I am sure, I paid the bill and tipped her with a little more than what I owed for the rest of the time. On the way home, my fiance asked me why I did that and I said it was because I owed that money and it was the right thing to do.

Sure I like to play for free, but that's when I stay home and play. The only thing I really care about when I go to a room is that the tables are clean, and they roll true.

Anyhow, I know how hard it is to run a business, especially a small business, so my hat is off to all of you that do it and have to deal with all of the day to day stuff.

Craig
 
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