Why is the snooker stance different?

[mosconiac]

Patrick, it sounds like insufficient rotation of your shoulders (and maybe hips). If I had pics or video, I would/could help.

Next time, try letting your left hip fall "inward" (down & forward), which will help your shoulders turn in (your left knee will feel like its tipping to the right a bit). Your left shoulder should be approaching (if not touching) your left jaw. Your right shoulder will feel like its sliding behind your ear (which will pull your elbow around into alignment with your cue & chin).

The snooker stance is easier to fall into when its all one movement. That's why you see the players setup behind the CB with their cue low (usually on the cueing line) and step into the shot...step into the right foot position (on the cueing line), step into the left foot position (even with or slightly ahead of the right foot...look at Ronnie above for sideways distance) with your hips & shoulders beginning to turn, and set hand/complete shoulder turn/raise the cue to their chin & chest.

I'd ignored an important point early on in my transition to a snooker-like stance (I'm still working on it). The right foot, right elbow, right shoulder, both hands, & dominant eye/chin should all be on the same vertical plane. Look at Ronnie above. I struggled with my right foot...it was always outside the shot line. I was fighting the sensation of the left leg being stuck way out there to the left. It felt odd. I was kinda "centering" my feet a bit. Then I saw that pic of Ronnie & said..."Eureka, it's OK that it's way out there".

 

[Bambu]

Just wanted to say thanks to all for all the great info, very helpful.

 

[sfleinen]

Bambu:

If you're ever at a NYC (or NY area, in general) event, let me know. E.g. the Tony Robles Predator ProAm, or Joss tour stop, or something like that. I'll meet you there. I'd welcome the opportunity to *show* you why the snooker stance is different, and why it's considered superior to the traditional / Lance Perkins pool stance.

What folks like mosconiac describe above is very true:

1. The snooker stance, by design, places all the appropriate body joints in-line (and on-line!) with the shot line. Those body joints FACE INTO the shot line, rather than "across" the shot line as the pool stance lends to. And, contrary to popular belief, there is NO "hip interference" with the snooker stance (i.e. that if you step onto the shot line with your foot and your hip pointing into it, that your grip hand will "bump" into your hip).

2. One thing which players that adopt the snooker stance find out immediately, is that the grip hand's arm is not "out there flapping in the wind back there" as is the case with the pool stance. That is, the arm is locked-in, and it's like it's on train tracks -- you can stroke easily forward and backward, but you have restricted range of motion for the arm and elbow to "wobble around" side-to-side.

3. Another thing that mosconiac describes which is KEY to the snooker stance, is "balancing on one side of the body" thing -- i.e. placing most of your weight on the planted leg (i.e. the leg on the same side as your grip hand, and in-line/on-line with the shot line). You'll [properly] have a feeling that the right side of your body (for a right-handed player) feels like a "derrick" (crane), sitting atop the shot line, starting from the foot, then the knee, then the hip, then your rib cage, then your shoulder, and finally, your head. The left foot (for a right-handed player), at first, feels like it's "stuck out there," like it's not part of this crane device at all. That's normal to feel that way. But like those peripheral feet that lower down to stabilize the crane, that left leg serves that purpose. The ratio of weight to put on that stabilizing leg varies, but if I had to take an educated guess, it would be 70/30 or 60/40 in favor of the right leg.

4. Any indications of "chicken wing" is indicative that the stance is not correct. Chicken wing indicates that the "derrick device" (crane) is not set up correctly, as the following conditions might lend to:
a. It might be that the shoulder is jutting too far "over" the cue. Usually, a pool player that has been playing side-arm for many years finds that his/her first attempts at a snooker stance result in a chicken wing, because the player is conditioned to shooting ACROSS his/her body, and not alongside his/her body.
b. Or, it may be that the player is focusing TOO HARD on getting his/her face and shoulders square to the shot. When you think about this, your natural tendency is to attempt to place/locate the cue under the center of the chest -- your brain, after all, is looking for that "perfectly center" feeling. In order to do that, your grip hand has to move inwards under your chest, causing you to compensate by moving your body outwards over the cue, causing the shoulder to be located way over to the right of the cue. Presto -- instant chicken wing. One key to learning a proper snooker stance in the beginning, is to ignore this notion of "perfectly center." Rather, focus on stepping on the shot line, bearing your weight on that planted leg, and "building the crane" on top of that leg -- with all your joints and body parts on that side of the body on-and-facing-into the shot line, to include the grip hand and arm. The alignment of the head and shoulders will almost take care of itself.

With a quick search (didn't spend much time on this -- you can probably find more), here are a couple posts I offered in the past about the snooker stance, and how to implement it:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=3207984#post3207984
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2782801#post2782801
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2604410#post2604410
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2196502#post2196502

Hope this is helpful. Again, let me know if you're going to be at an event in our area, and I'd welcome the opportunity to show you!
-Sean

 

[Bambu]

Thanks Sean, very nice of you. I am a listed predator tour player, but have not played lately. I hope to play in another event soon, I will let you know when.

 

[mosconiac]

Another item to add: I mentioned that in my transition from a pool to snooker stance, I struggled to pull my right foot onto the shot line. I also (for reasons Sean pointed out above) would place my bridge hand according to my pool stance habit...too far left. When I pushed it to the right (onto the same line as my right foot/shoulder/elbow/hand), my shoulder turn was completed & the cue was on those rails that Sean mentioned.

It took time to get all of them on the shot line (right foot/shoulder/elbow/hand), but now I'm very happy. To help the learning process, its good to lay your cue down on the shot line (tip on the felt) & move your body in to it.

BTW, I can play all day with no more discomfort than I got with my old stroke...the same old aches & pains set in, but that's to be expected now that I'm an old man.

 

[HueblerHustler7]

I play with a more "open" snooker stance. It all comes down to personal preference. I feel as if I have more control with an open stance and with sighting the ball being im left eye dominate. It also works with both style of strokes in my experience, then again I kind of have a "hybrid" stroke and stance.

 

[sfleinen]

Another item to add: I mentioned that in my transition from a pool to snooker stance, I struggled to pull my right foot onto the shot line. I also (for reasons Sean pointed out above) would place my bridge hand according to my pool stance habit...too far left. When I pushed it to the right (onto the same line as my right foot/shoulder/elbow/hand), my shoulder turn was completed & the cue was on those rails that Sean mentioned.

It took time to get all of them on the shot line (right foot/shoulder/elbow/hand), but now I'm very happy. To help the learning process, its good to lay your cue down on the shot line (tip on the felt) & move your body in to it.

BTW, I can play all day with no more discomfort than I got with my old stroke...the same old aches & pains set in, but that's to be expected now that I'm an old man.

Thanks, mosconiac.

That bolded part above, should be part "c" of item 4 of my bulleted list. That is 100% true -- that pool players have the tendency to want to reach "straight out" as far in front of their face with their bridge hand as possible -- almost like they're trying to make their bridge hand an extension of their face. The tendency here, of course, is to rotate the body such that the shoulder is as far in front of the face as possible so that the face is "looking down" the bridge hand's arm. (To think of an exaggeration of this point for illustration purposes, think Mike Davis' stance -- Mike's face is almost resting on his bridge arm's shoulder. That's also probably why Mike adopted that unique stroke from the shoulder; he could no longer rely on his elbow delivering the cue in a straight line, so Mike pushed that physical motion upwards -- to the shoulder -- instead.)

A proper snooker stance, in contrast, forces you to "reach across" your face, since your shoulders are relaxed and situated perpendicular (more or less) to the shot line. Pool players first adopting the snooker stance will try to resort to the old habit of "reaching directly outwards 'from' their face with the bridge hand" (causing the body to rotate accordingly such that the bridge arm's shoulder gets located closer to the front of the face), yet at the same time try to keep the cue centered "under" their body (thinking they're trying to square their shoulders, but they're moving the grip hand under the body), and voila -- instant chicken wing.

If one just builds the derrick (crane) on the shot line, and bends over from the hips -- forgetting about the bridge hand for the moment -- the shoulders will automatically be placed square to the shot. Then, it's just a matter of "reaching over from the left" with the bridge hand (in the case of a right-handed player) for bridge placement -- but keep the left shoulder in place, resisting the urge to push the shoulder forward in front of the face. At least in the beginning. After one practices for a while and gets a feel for the "derrick" construction and reaching over from the left with the bridge hand, they find out it's no longer necessary to do this as a two step, "lean over first, then reach from the left to place the bridge hand" process.

Great stuff!
-Sean <-- plays for hours -- even losing track of time -- playing with the snooker stance

 

[ronscuba]

How important is it for the right leg to be locked straight ? I used to lock it straight, but my leg got tired and would ache after long practice sessions.

 

[Ratta]

Well,

this is really nice to read here. It has been long ago, that a great question was also answered perfectly, described wonderful with well choosen words-and.........all guys were friendly.
Hope this is the *return of the real sense* of this forum

thx to all guy who posted here their thinkings.

Hats off to several guys here

a *strong believer of the baseline*,

lg from overseas,
Ingo

 

[sfleinen]

How important is it for the right leg to be locked straight ? I used to lock it straight, but my leg got tired and would ache after long practice sessions.

It's not important. In fact, if you find yourself "intentionally locking" the leg, you're placing stress there that will catch up with you over time.

When I'm in my snooker stance, the right leg (I'm a right-hander) is straight, but not "locked." The idea is to have the leg straight, such that your weight "sits" on it comfortably, but without you focusing on straightening the leg to the point of a "stressed locked" position. If you find your leg muscles pushing the knee backwards and pressing it there, that's too much stress. While it may be good in the very beginning stages of learning the snooker stance (afterall, it is not natural for a pool player to have "straight" legs -- most of them have bent knees), in the long run, you want a straight leg that is relaxed.

Hope that helps!
-Sean

P.S.: I give the same offer to you as I do Bambu; if you're going to an event in NYC (or outerlying boroughs / areas), let me know!

 

[ronscuba]

It's not important. In fact, if you find yourself "intentionally locking" the leg, you're placing stress there that will catch up with you over time.

When I'm in my snooker stance, the right leg (I'm a right-hander) is straight, but not "locked." The idea is to have the leg straight, such that your weight "sits" on it comfortably, but without you focusing on straightening the leg to the point of a "stressed locked" position. If you find your leg muscles pushing the knee backwards and pressing it there, that's too much stress. While it may be good in the very beginning stages of learning the snooker stance (afterall, it is not natural for a pool player to have "straight" legs -- most of them have bent knees), in the long run, you want a straight leg that is relaxed.

Hope that helps!
-Sean

P.S.: I give the same offer to you as I do Bambu; if you're going to an event in NYC (or outerlying boroughs / areas), let me know!

Thanks. I live in NYC. Have to check when the next tournament is in the area.