Why join the UPA?

[manlyshot]

The UPA is and will just be for it’s members. I think they should publicly display their mission statement and ask for public opinion and support as to how they can reach their goals as quickly and calmly as possible. And I wish they would work that stupid incident out with one of the greatest players of all time.

I had a little trouble following your last post, Joe T, but I figured it out.

The UPA should have publicly displayed their mission statement, ASKED for public opinion in order to get support on reaching goals quickly and calmly as possible, and done it from the start to present the image of: "The UPA is and will just be for its members."

It would have been an easier approach (IMO) than strangleholding independent tournament producers, creating categories of pool players (banning Earl, Corey, Troy and other UPA targets), and storming into the pool world unannounced that from now on, UPA contracts are MANDATORY if you want to help pool.

And, yes, definitely they should "work that stupid incident out" with Earl. Charlie and Earl will be playing in the Mosconi Cup, I read, and it could present a golden opportunity for them both.

ManlyShot

 

[bruin70]

the problem with the upa,,,or any other such org. is that they're run by pool players, and exercise in futility. well meaning as they may be, when it comes to soliciting for sponsorship, somehow the idea of williams or sigel or hopkins or whoever, sitting opposite representatives of phillip morris or coca cola eludes me.

pool needs a business man ....and a businessman who doesn't love pool but is interested in making money. because THAT kind of businessman would have to see the possibilities in pool's future and know how to get there. a businessman doesn't bring baggage to the table and would treat all problems in an objective manner. i also think players don't trust other players(as business people). i would think players would be more apt to toe the line for a business mind.

pool players don't have a clue. and that's why the upa will eventually fold.

 

[manlyshot]

the problem with the upa,,,why the upa will eventually fold.

Bruin70, you've hit the nail on the head. What eludes me is the need for a pool players union. Are other pool players making more money than these 128 selected "touring pros," so much more that a union needs to be formed?

Are manufacuters, sponsors, and independent tournament promoters pouring so much money into the industry that the UPA needs to form a union to receive their fair share?

In case anybody hasn't noticed, tournament attendance is down, vendors who pay for booths at pool events are barely making ends meet, the traveling cue-stick repairman's income is dwindling for some strange reason, and no blue-chip sponsors are interested in pouring their money into pocket billiards.

I agree with Joe T in theory, but it ain't going to happen when the UPA brings nothing to the table and injures the ones who are already hurting (IMO).

I am looking forward to any news about the Seminole Tribe of Florida, their new arena in Tampa, and what role they may decide to play in the history of pool.

ManlyShot

 

[ChalksBilliards]

One thing is a fact, if the men do not have an organized tour or union then there will never be any hope of anyone making real money.

The UPA might not be perfect and there will certainly be growing pains, but it is a whole lot better than the nothing they had before it was created. With the UPA there is a chance that they might attract a real sponsor like Budweiser or Coors or some other national company, without the UPA or some organization like it they have absolutely not a chance in hell.

I don't know Charlie Williams from a whole in the wall , but at least the kid has the balls to try and do something. Instead of ragging him and calling him the anti christ, maybe you should come up with ideas to make his job easier. Just a thought.

 

[manlyshot]

Originally posted by ChalksBilliards One thing is a fact, if the men do not have an organized tour or union then there will never be any hope of anyone making real money.

Maybe the UPA should have "organized" the tour from the start.

Originally posted by ChalksBilliards The UPA might not be perfect and there will certainly be growing pains, but it is a whole lot better than the nothing they had before it was created.

IMO, it is worse. Seeing the already-existing low attendance at tournaments, suffering vendors, nonexistence new sponsors, the UPA is sticking salt on an already festering wound by creating havoc among promoters and pool players.

Originally posted by ChalksBilliardsWith the UPA there is a chance that they might attract a real sponsor like Budweiser or Coors or some other national company.

Well, if the UPA likes Budweiser, they better start taking a liking to Earl Strickland.

Originally posted by ChalksBilliardsI don't know Charlie Williams from a whole in the wall , but at least the kid has the balls to try and do something. Instead of ragging him and calling him the anti christ, maybe you should come up with ideas to make his job easier. Just a thought.

Nobody has put Charlie Williams' name in the same sentence as "anti christ" except you, ChalksBilliards, but "the kid," as you called him, has already blackened the eye of the UPA machine with the poorly written legal contracts, the stranglehold he placed on independent promoters who have verbally said they will NEVER do business with the UPA again, and mid UPA Tour, the kid created a "touring pro" category with the sole intent to ban participation of Earl Strickland, Corey Deuel, Troy Frank, Keith McCready, and any pool player who won't join the union.

I don't desire to come up with ideas to make "his job easier," ChalksBilliards. I don't happen to agree with his business practices.

ManlyShot

 

[bruin70]

Bruin70, you've hit the nail on the head. What eludes me is the need for a pool players union. Are other pool players making ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,T in theory, but it ain't going to happen when the UPA brings nothing to the table and injures the ones who are already hurting (IMO).

I am looking forward to any news about the Seminole Tribe of Florida, their new arena in Tampa, and what role they may decide to play in the history of pool.

ManlyShot

in this case, the definition of a "union" is a bit skewed. i think it's just to give the game a sense of organization.

the seminole thing looks like a good idea. and if it flies,,,,,well,,,,,,there are lots of native american venues around the country.

 

[bruin70]

One thing is a fact, if the men do not have an organized tour or union then there will never be any hope of anyone making real money.

The UPA might not be perfect and there will certainly be growing pains, but it is a whole lot better than the nothing they had before it was created. With the UPA there is a chance that they might attract a real sponsor like Budweiser or Coors or some other national company, without the UPA or some organization like it they have absolutely not a chance in hell.

I don't know Charlie Williams from a whole in the wall , but at least the kid has the balls to try and do something. Instead of ragging him and calling him the anti christ, maybe you should come up with ideas to make his job easier. Just a thought.

i met him for over an hour, and i liked him. he seemed like a genuine indivisual. but offering up fixes wouldn't fly. having someone close to pool as head of any pro pool organization is a recipe for disaster. get a businessman who knows how to make money.

 

[Ruthless]

I said before I won't talk about CW anymore...... but I believe he has changed names here??


Other news: I was told by a friend that talks to Mr. Osceola from the Seminole tribe that there may be a possible tour that would not be sanctioned by the UPA. It may consist of 6 - $250K added events in different locations and qualifiers throughout the country. Also mentioned was a $1k payout to all qualifiers for travel. Maybe he will stick that last fork in the UPA by excluding their members.

This is what the Men need, not a burning zeppelin like the UPA.

 

[manlyshot]

I said before I won't talk about CW anymore...... but I believe he has changed names here??

As do I, Ruthless.

I enjoyed reading Joe T's posts on being a UPA member and appreciate his views.

Originally posted by Ruthless
Other news: I was told by a friend that talks to Mr. Osceola from the Seminole tribe that there may be a possible tour that would not be sanctioned by the UPA. It may consist of 6 - $250K added events in different locations and qualifiers throughout the country. Also mentioned was a $1k payout to all qualifiers for travel. Maybe he will stick that last fork in the UPA by excluding their members.

I am hoping that the Seminoles will maintain their own management activities, legislative and regulatory initiatives, and other policy developments, and if, and I hope when, the Seminoles' festivities begin, even the UPA won't be able to place a stop sign in front of an endeavor such as this.

ManlyShot

 

[manlyshot]

UPA is working towards benefitting is top 64 players in many ways. They garuntee money will be paid to the players by the promoter, as well as give the player what they deserve in the industry ... power. You think it's right for promoters to throughout a $5,000 added event and get the best player to show up to fight over it? In time if promoters want the best they will have to up the money or get the short stops instead of the greats.

Yes, a $5,000-added event in this day and age is appreciated in an already suffering pool industry, and for the UPA to think these same promoters "will have to up the money or get the shortstops instead of the greats" is damaging the already frayed fabric of pool. Will the UPA enforce injunctions and lawsuits if a UPA member decides to go to a Joss Tour event and doesn't ask Charlie Williams for his blessings first? According to the UPA contract, the UPA member could be taken to court if they are not granted a waiver by King Charles.

The promoters aren't breaking even; they are losing money. The traveling vendors aren't breaking even; they are losing money. And anybody who travels to any of these events knows how much it costs the pool player. The pool players need these independent promoters and more like them. The UPA wants to destroy the ambitions of independent promoters and charges them $1,500 for sanctioning or threatens the "union" won't attend the event.

The UPA theme is to present a united front, but against who? The UPA has created a division among pool players, is creating player categories targeted at certain pool players, and now they want to destroy the independent promoter's endeavor by charging them $1,500. They are definitely barking up the wrong tree (IMO).

ManlyShot

 

[Darren S.]

Promoters either sanction with the UPA or not. Frankie H. was allowed to play in NY as another good will offering since Frankie was in hometown. It is his last UPA event. Kid Delicious is now a upa touring pro ... contract signed and all. By the way, Corey, Frankie, T. Frank all have the same sponsor. Go figure...

 

[Darren S.]

So what promoter are now donating their time for the sake of the sport? Yea right. Promoters don't throw events to lose money. If they do lose money they don't plan on making the same mistake twice. Promoters aren't going to announce how much money they make. If everyone in the industry started bragging or even sharing how much they made then the players would be outraged. People aren't in pool to lose money. I don't care who you are. Incidently the UPA has an open policy for all events that are non-sanctioned. Meaning players can play anywhere without asking permission. Also, you keep reffering to Charlie running the show. This just shows that you have a personal problem with him, because the UPA has a board of voting members. Read articles out on the UPA and talk a little with their rep and you will find that Charlie doesn't run the show. When charlie is no longer president will you still make the same claim?

 

[Zims Rack]

I wasn't aware that Frankie, T. Frank are sponsored by CueStix Int. That is Corey's main sponsor, correct? Who else sponsors him?

Zim

 

[manlyshot]

Frankie H. was allowed to play in NY as another good will offering since Frankie was in hometown. It is his last UPA event.

A voice from the UPA communicates, FINALLY.

Let me get this straight. You're saying Frankie Hernandez was allowed to play in Fury World Summit in New York City as "another goodwill offering"? AND, it is Frankie's last UPA event.

After some hesitation, I must say that's mightly kind of you, Darren S.

Originally posted by Darren S.
Kid Delicious is now a upa touring pro ... contract signed and all. By the way, Corey, Frankie, T. Frank all have the same sponsor. Go figure...

Kid feels the same way as some of the rest of the guys who donated 100 bucks to the UPA. They just want to earn a living, in other words, play pool. Danny is a great persona, and a contracted "UPA touring pro" at that.

What is the difference between a UPA touring pro and just a plain ordinary touring pro? How does one become a touring pro?

Corey, Frankie, and Troy are lucky to have their sponsor. I am looking forward to their sponsor's future endeavors.

ManlyShot

 

[manlyshot]

So what promoter are now donating their time for the sake of the sport? Yea right. Promoters aren't going to announce how much money they make. If everyone in the industry started bragging or even sharing how much they made then the players would be outraged. People aren't in pool to lose money. I don't care who you are.

Well, now you are of the opinion that promoters are making money these days. I can think of a couple, Allen Hopkins being one of them. I can think of six major events in this year of 2003 that suffered from lack of attendance, where vendors claimed to have not made one dime, and the entry fees and hotel/travel expense for week-long events prevented some pool players from participation. And it is these folks that the UPA wants to charge $1,500 for a goodwill offering of player attendance, these money-making independent tournament promoters.

Again, I believe the UPA should be reaching outside of this cash-poor pool public to promote its organization. Don't step on the very people who keep pool alive for the rest of us.

Originally posted by Darren S.
Also, you keep reffering to Charlie running the show. This just shows that you have a personal problem with him, because the UPA has a board of voting members. Read articles out on the UPA and talk a little with their rep and you will find that Charlie doesn't run the show. When charlie is no longer president will you still make the same claim?

Charlie Williams built the UPA engine and turned the key. As far as a pool player, I would place him in the upper echelon of the current lot. But these legally binding UPA contracts, as currently written, are ridiculous, with the sole aim of benefitting only the UPA and not the pool player.

Tell me where to read articles about the UPA. I have perused the UPA website trying to gain answers on numerous occasions. I have attempted to contact the UPA, but to no avail. I have talked to UPA reps as well as UPA members, current and un-renewed UPA members, non-UPA members, independent promoters, vendors, pool media, industry execs, manufacturers, inventors, cue-stick repairmen, Hall of Famers, and the rail, and to be quite honest with you, most of them are just as much in the dark as I am. I would be interested, though, in learning more about the UPA in an effort understands its mission. Lead the way, Voice of the UPA.

I feel sorry for the poor gentleman who has to step into Charlie's shoes. Hopefully, it will be someone who has integrity, business sense, and is a seasoned person who is capable of looking out for the interests of the pool players as well as the UPA machine.

ManlyShot

 

[Darren S.]

sorry, but it's hard to keep up with all these posts. You ask questions in your posts, and I don't see them at first. I don't work for the UPA, I assume they get a great deal of phone calls, emails, etc. Between industry people, players, promoters, haters, and lovers they have to get a great deal of calls per day. I know that just in me trying to find answers I'm wearing Frank A. out with all my questions. He's nice enough to give the answers. But he was quick to remind me that he's very busy and may not answer my calls immediately. I said "we" can find the answers meaning you and me manlyshot. The seminole tribe sponsors all three players. Cuestix only sponsors Corey.

My biggest point is that when you make a statement like, "the UPA is bad for men's pro pool." That is an opinion. It has no bearing or weight on reality. If you say that the UPA website is outdated, then that is fact. My only question to you is how is it that you can speak so dilingently about something at the end of the day just end up being your uninformed/skewed opinion? After finding the answers myself I've come to the conclusion that your attacks on the UPA are without real basis. If you want my opinion ... I think you need to spend more time doing other things than spending your energy on forums.

Just my opinion...

 

[manlyshot]

My biggest point is that when you make a statement like, "the UPA is bad for men's pro pool." That is an opinion. It has no bearing or weight on reality.

My only question to you is how is it that you can speak so dilingently about something at the end of the day just end up being your uninformed/skewed opinion? After finding the answers myself I've come to the conclusion that your attacks on the UPA are without real basis. If you want my opinion ... I think you need to spend more time doing other things than spending your energy on forums. Just my opinion...

Well, Darren S., I speak diligently about the UPA because I have spent some time and energy trying to decipher what their mission is all about, something they neglected to do from the start. They are trying to ban existing pool players from earning a living, placing said banned pool players in a UPA-designated segregated category, placing UPA stop signs in front of prospective tournament promoters, and REQUIRING an uncounseled pool player to sign a LEGALLY BINDING CONTRACT that only benefits the UPA, NOT THE POOL PLAYER. And besides spending my energy on forums, I am also spending energy on finding the answer.

I have conversed with current UPA members, some un-renewed, and the banned pool players who are extremely dissatisfied with the current state of the affairs. Personally, I think the UPA is causing harm to the pool environment, and, yes, my opinion is the UPA is bad for men's pro pool, just like you have an opinion.

The UPA will continue to cause havoc, and until there is an immediate change of events, I see its demise, hopefully, and with some luck, sooner than later. Ask the industry executives, manufacturers, vendors, and pool media what their opinion is about the UPA, and you may find some more diversified opinions.

Hey, Darren S., wouldn't it have been a wonderful if the UPA could have gotten the million-dollar tournament sanctioned? Those UPA touring pros would have had to meet their financial responsibility clause and attended, subject to injunctions and the like. Maybe it's not too late, and the UPA could provide the entry fees for its union members. Now, that WOULD make a believer out of me.

ManlyShot

 

[ChalksBilliards]

Manlyshot, if I may ask, just who are you? Are you a touring pro? Are you a promoter? What is your interest in this whole thing? It is obvious to me, you feel that the only solution is for the UPA to go away. You would rather have the men's pool world in complete disarray, than have some organization try to step up and get something going. I wonder what your financial interest is in all of this.

If you were to edify us all, then maybe we would understand your anger and obssession on this subject.

By the way if you have no financial interest, then why would the UPA get in touch with you or even give you the time of day.

 

[manlyshot]

By the way if you have no financial interest, then why would the UPA get in touch with you or even give you the time of day.

What a flippant remark, ChalksBilliards, something to expect, though, in any public forum, I guess. I hope this is not how the UPA addresses inquiries.

Unfortunately for me, ChalksBilliards, the UPA's actions do affect my financial interests, in more ways than just one, which is why I endeavored to learn more about the organization. I am in a quandary, though, on how to seek a remedy, to be quite honest about it. After trying to talk to others who are more knowledgeable, current members, ex-members, non-members, UPA reps, I am at a loss as to how, and even why, the UPA has created and is still creating the ever-increasing stop signs they place at random targeting pool players who haven't joined the UPA as well as any prospective independent tournament promoter.

It is discriminatory for the UPA to say Frankie Hernandez cannot play in any more UPA events because he is what the UPA considers as a "touring pro," but yet Joe Blow from New Orleans can pay $25 and enter the same tournament.

The UPA contract as written only benefits the UPA and actually could cause harm to a pool player, by the strict letter of the law. If the UPA felt this contract necessary, they should afford the pool player a review period and not hand legally binding contracts out at commencement of tournaments like fliers. This is a business practice that, quite frankly, is astonishing: to ask a layman to sign on the dotted line, especially this UPA contract, without benefit of counsel.

By the way, ChalksBilliards, I have asked this question before, but have yet to receive the answer. Maybe you would be so kind as to provide it, if you know. What is the difference between a "touring pro" and a UPA "touring pro"?

ManlyShot

 

[Darren S.]

Manlyshot, it seems to me that the definition is obvious. One is a member of the UPA and another is not. What's the problem? If Frankie doesn't want to join the UPA that's his perogative. So what? You take guys like Bustamante, Reyes, Souquet, Putnam, Frost, and they do join. Obviously they believe and want the organization to succeed. The UPA's goal is to work to provide benefits for it's top 64 players on tour. This isn't going to happen.

It is unfair for you to accuse say that this forum must be the way that the UPA chooses to answer your questions. As though no one out in the world could agree or like the UPA. Come to think of it, I agree with Chalk. Why should the UPA take time to answer your questions? You get the answers, you don't like the answers and just criticize more. You are like a democrat who hates the Republican or vice versa. You have already determined that you don't like the UPA. If any organization spent their time on guys like you they would only be wasting their time and energy.

Sad but true...