C
CrispyFish
Guest
If the UPA is so lousy, why do players join it? What's the draw? What are they promised? 
-CF
-CF
Hi Crispy.... The players join because there are no other big tournaments paying the money that is needed to survive. Therefore they are "FORCED" to join and sign Charlies exclusive contract or not play at all. The uPA has adopted a new rating of "TOURING PRO" catagory that has eliminated several players from playing. Like Earl Strickland, Keith Mc Cready, Corey Duell just to name a few. They refuse to sign his contract giving the UPA/CHARLIE WILLIAMS exclusive rights to do what ever the UPA/Charlie Williams wants to. And it also gives him the right to SUE you for money damages if you play in a non sanctioned event and he can get an injunction blocking you from playing in nothing but his tournaments. Would you sign such a contract and get nothing in return. The old Mens tour (MPBT) under Don MAckey tried this and it failed. But atleast he guaranteed all the purses by geting insurance against it happening. He , Don Mackey, also got some sponsorship/ endorsement money for the players using MEUCCI cues, which most did at the time. The UPA does not offer any guarantee anything in return for your dues it collects and the sanctioning fee money it collects. In a nutshell to simply answer your question. The players go where the money is and do what they have to to earn some type of living. As a foot note, i once asked Alan Hopkins at the last U S OPEN 14.1 in NYC what happened to the mens tour. His answer was very simple. "IT SELF DESTRUCTED".. end of subject....mike
D
Darren S.
Guest
That's not the end of the subject. You are either ignorant of the facts or purposefully trying to mislead people when it comes to the UPA. The UPA is a union of players. Players don't have to join the UPA. For example the ones you mentioned. Earl, Cory, Keith. They can join or not join.
As far as the contracts are concerned you are completely ignorant. The contract in no way reads that the UPA can sue anyone for playing anywhere else.
Also, the contract does not say that the UPA has "exclusive rights." Where do you get your facts from? Why don't you crawl out from your little hole in the ground and give the UPA a call for the facts. It's really not that hard. After speaking with a rep I see that you and manlyshot have some axe to grind with the UPA. So from here on out I'm going to do what some of you seem to neglect. I'm going to call the UPA and get the facts.
Let's be reminded of that fact that the UPA would not exist if the players did not want it. Every other top player is a member because they believe in a player's union. Every other sport has a union, it's about time pool players have woken up.
So what say you cueball? Let's have a facts debate. Oh yes, and for you to mention the UPA in the same sentence as Mackey just shows how close minded you really are. After Mackey laughing himself all the way to the bank, it set men's pro pool back another 25 years.
I'm pro both the WPBA and the UPA as long as they continue to watch out for the interest of their players. Do you have facts that say they don't? Let's have it.
cueball caught behind the eight ball...
As far as the contracts are concerned you are completely ignorant. The contract in no way reads that the UPA can sue anyone for playing anywhere else.
Also, the contract does not say that the UPA has "exclusive rights." Where do you get your facts from? Why don't you crawl out from your little hole in the ground and give the UPA a call for the facts. It's really not that hard. After speaking with a rep I see that you and manlyshot have some axe to grind with the UPA. So from here on out I'm going to do what some of you seem to neglect. I'm going to call the UPA and get the facts.
Let's be reminded of that fact that the UPA would not exist if the players did not want it. Every other top player is a member because they believe in a player's union. Every other sport has a union, it's about time pool players have woken up.
So what say you cueball? Let's have a facts debate. Oh yes, and for you to mention the UPA in the same sentence as Mackey just shows how close minded you really are. After Mackey laughing himself all the way to the bank, it set men's pro pool back another 25 years.
I'm pro both the WPBA and the UPA as long as they continue to watch out for the interest of their players. Do you have facts that say they don't? Let's have it.
cueball caught behind the eight ball...
Pool player agrees that in the event of a breach by a pool player of any provision...the UPA may obtain from any court having jurisdiction, such EQUITABLE RELIEF as may be appropriate, INCLUDING AN INJUNCTION...in addition to any OTHER REMEDIES...and that such relief includes, but is not limited to, the obtaining of an injunction PROHIBITING POOL PLAYER from participating in any billiards event, which is in conflict with a billiards tournament.Darren S. said:
Sounds like a lot of legalese and legal mumbo jumbo, Darren S. READ the contract. Cueball1950 is not "completely ignorant" as you state in your first-ever post on AzBilliards. This UPA contract is riddled with vagueries and only serves the UPA's interests, not the pool players' interests.
Good luck, Darren S. No human answers the phone, but you may leave a message. If you e-mail the UPA website, you may get a response as early as a week later. In the middle of the UPA's so-called "tour," consisiting of all Charlie Williams' events and two independent promoters he put a stranglehold on, he changes UPA eligibility requirements, a flagrant discriminatory act.Darren S. said:
Every other top player is a member because they believe in a player's union? Hogwash. And some of those "EVERY OTHER TOP PLAYER" haven't renewed their UPA contracts, as well as a high-profile pool industry executive.
You used the word "union," Darren S. In its true definition, a union is an organization made up of WAGE EARNERS designed to advance the general working conditions and the economic interests of its members. Pool players aren't wage earners, and what has the UPA "union" offered to its members? Any money? Any endorsements? Any sponsors? Any benefits, health, retirement, or life insurance? Any more independent tournaments other than Charlie Williams'? Most independent promoters have a hard enough time breaking even, much less pay the UPA $1,500 for their so-called "sanctioning." "Control" may be a better word, UPA control. Better yet, any tour with NEW and OUTSIDE sponsors?
A union has the interests of its members and is run by an elected official, not a self-appointed non-veteran. No union would require its member to sign any document like the UPA contract. The UPA contract only benefits the UPA, not the pool player.
Darren S., Mackey moved in unison. Do you remember the other participant? I remember the tournament cops. What a joke!
A facts debate, indeed. Cueball1950 is a pool enthusiast, a fan, plays pool and is one of pool's biggest supporters. If you know any positive reason for being a member of the UPA, then please post, but don't target Cueball1950. Let's hear the facts from you, Darren S. If you are a UPA member, please inform the forum readers here what are the facts. If you are a pool enthusiast, then let's hear your views on what UPA does right in your opinion.
Lawyers prepared UPA contracts for membership. If you actually READ the UPA contract, you may understand it is not a one-size-fits-all and could actually harm the pool player who signs a LEGALLY BINDING CONTRACT without benefit of counsel at commencement of tournaments. Anyone and everyone should READ any legal document they sign and be counseled, and for the UPA to hand out these contracts like fliers and expect pool players to sign on the dotted line does not look out for the interests of the pool player. That is a legal reality and a fact.
Please give us your facts.
ManlyShot
Hey Manlyshot,
C'mon, let's face it the UPA is a great organization. Great, that is, for the top 8-10 players in it.
They get the byes and the prime slots in the seeding.
How great is that? A person would have to be a fool not to want that.
Of course if you are not in the "clique" of the top 8-10 then I really don't see what the UPA offers you. Unless you want to be part of a club that has those top players as a member.
What would happen if the UPA folded today?
What would the players lose?
Would they still be able to enter the various tournaments?
Seems to me is that the only thing the players would lose is having to pay UPA dues.
And if Daren S. (most likely from the Orlando area) is a member of the UPA why don't you post the UPA contract here so that we can all have a good laugh.
C'mon, let's face it the UPA is a great organization. Great, that is, for the top 8-10 players in it.
They get the byes and the prime slots in the seeding.
How great is that? A person would have to be a fool not to want that.
Of course if you are not in the "clique" of the top 8-10 then I really don't see what the UPA offers you. Unless you want to be part of a club that has those top players as a member.
What would happen if the UPA folded today?
What would the players lose?
Would they still be able to enter the various tournaments?
Seems to me is that the only thing the players would lose is having to pay UPA dues.
And if Daren S. (most likely from the Orlando area) is a member of the UPA why don't you post the UPA contract here so that we can all have a good laugh.
jjinfla said:
Jake, let's give Darren S. (first-time poster) an opportunity to relay his facts.
Fact: Requiring a pool player to sign a legal contract without benefit of counsel at commencement of tournaments is wrong.
Fact: Charlie Williams, current UPA president, is a self-appointed non-veteran. A union consists of elected officials by its peers. Charlie Williams isn't old enough and does not have the wisdom to represent the membership of a pool "union."
Fact: Creating rules mid-tour with the sole intent of banning targeted pool players is discrimination.
Fact: UPA gives seeds and byes to pool players who are not current members of the UPA.
Fact: UPA allows seeded members to arrive at tournaments 1 and 2 days late, when all others have to be in attendance for the players meeting and incur considerable extra expense.
Fact: The UPA website is not updated, contains out-dated and incorrect information, is non-responsive to phone/e-mail inquiries.
Fact: The so-called UPA "tour" consists of Charlie Williams' tournaments and two independent tournaments the UPA put a stranglehold on.
Fact: The only folks who are affected by the UPA are pool players and independent tournament promoters, a small public.
Fact: The UPA offers NOTHING to its members other than being taken to court because the unsuspecting pool player signed a legally binding contract without benefit of counsel.
ManlyShot
ManlyShot,
If you do happen to make it up to Quincy this weekend for the Joss tournament I have to buy you a beer. Great posts and I think Darren S bit off a little more than he can chew on this one considering I have yet to read anything about the contract which even remotely seems to be trying to benefit players as a whole.
DDK
If you do happen to make it up to Quincy this weekend for the Joss tournament I have to buy you a beer. Great posts and I think Darren S bit off a little more than he can chew on this one considering I have yet to read anything about the contract which even remotely seems to be trying to benefit players as a whole.
DDK
Close minded indeed. Mackey ran the mens tour for years without any problems. He guaranteed all the purses bu buying insurance with the dues that the players paid. What does the UPA? Charlie williams guarantee. Absolutely nothing. Does he guarantee the purses if the UPA is allowed to sanction a tournament. I never said Don Mackey was a saint. I know and realize what he did in the end. And you are right, it did set pro pool back a few years. I have not been hiding under a rock as you put it. I asked MR. Williams a couple of questions last year at the Joss Tour event in Rochester at Classic Billiards. He refuses to discuss any business matters with anyone. This after i said i was thinking of joining as a non tourning pro. But his attitude more or less was. Don't join. I feel that if ANYONE Joins any organization and has to pay some type of dues they also have the right to know where the money is going. You called the UPA a "UNION" If you were to joing a union the union would explain where the money is spent. Not Charlie. All he would have had to say is that it goes towards operating expenses of the UPA. Now is that hard to do. i ask you this. And you can ask the REP that you spoke to this same question. What does the UPA Guarantee the players in return for their dues being paid. They cannot guarantee the prize fund. That was evident at the Virginia tournament last january when Brady Behrman had a cash flow problem due to the weather. Did Charlie guarantee the prize fund. I don't think so. So ,now will you please get your facts straight. Like manlyshot said. I am the biggest supporter of any game of pool and friends with alot of the "tourning Pro's". i have attended about 18 of the last 20 U S opens. as a matter of fact, I saw Charlie play in his first U S OPEN at the tender age of 14 after winning a qualifier. Barry did not have to let him play when he was asked if the kid could play. Barry bent the rules so Charlie could play. And what does Charlie do in return. Tries to ruin the U S OPEN by trying to get players to boycott it. He even showed up after the players meeting asking players to not play. mainly because of 9/11. Barry lost alot of money on that tournament and had to cut the purse. What would Charlie rather have him do. cancell it. It had already started the monday before and all the airports were shut down. so the players could not leave anyway. And as for Earl being able to join the UPA. SInce when. Charlie kicked him out by accepting his resignation. Which is funny cuz Earl never sent one to the UPA asking to be resigned. Earl and charlie had a little disagreement after the tournament in hampton VA. (yes i was there) about earl geting paid. and after charlie stalled him for a couple of hours earl got pissed and went outside and ripped the UPA patch of his shirt. Charlie took that as a resignation. After talking to earl about this myself, i agree with earl. The endorsement patches he wears he gets paid to wear. There is no rule that states he has to wear Charlies patch. Anyway, if you want to know what the players really think of the UPA. Simply take 1 aside and ask them. you will be surprised at their response. I was. Alot of them only joined so they could make some type of living. and they will tell you that................................nuff said....mike
D
Darren S.
Guest
Your "facts":
Your Fact: Requiring a pool player to sign a legal contract without benefit of counsel at commencement of tournaments is wrong.
- Not true, several pool-players have had the right to look over the contract from tourney to tourney. The contract is only for those who choose to become touring pro's. The contract has been in existence since February and discussed every player's meeting. Again, players are not forced to become touring pro's therefor not "forced" to sign a contract.
Your Fact: Charlie Williams, current UPA president, is a self-appointed non-veteran. A union consists of elected officials by its peers. Charlie Williams isn't old enough and does not have the wisdom to represent the membership of a pool "union."
On the onset of any organization pres', v.p.'s, officials, etc. must be set in order to actually have an organization. You don't start off having 150 players on tour. You start by going to local gov. agencies and filling out paperwork asking you who the officials are. Williams was the only man in pool smart enough and tough enough to do this. You claiming that he is not "old enough" is opinion not fact. You have plenty of people in the pool world twice charlie's age and still not "old enough." Obviously charlie has started the organization, grown the organization, and it is stronger not weaker than a year ago. So apparently he's doing something right.
Your Fact: Creating rules mid-tour with the sole intent of banning targeted pool players is discrimination.
-Your too vague here. Be specific. If your going to make such accusations in debate you need to give specific examples so that they can be specificaly argued. Perhaps this is good enough for forums, but not in a real world of debate.
Your Fact: UPA gives seeds and byes to pool players who are not current members of the UPA.
-Vague again, please enlighten us, so that we can confirm or deny your facts.
Your Fact: UPA allows seeded members to arrive at tournaments 1 and 2 days late, when all others have to be in attendance for the players meeting and incur considerable extra expense.
-Wow, I'm starting to see a pattern here manlyshot. Is is possible that someone has finally come and pointed out people on forums rant and rave without real facts. Please be specific, Let's just say in a court of law the judge Judy would be laughing right now.
Your Fact: The UPA website is not updated, contains out-dated and incorrect information, is non-responsive to phone/e-mail inquiries.
-see, you're on to something here. In my contact with them mentioned these problems. Web problems. Phone calls during events, and returning emails. Hardly makes them the ogre of pool, sounds like they need more help. Maybe you should answer their 100 calls a day Manly?
Your Fact: The so-called UPA "tour" consists of Charlie Williams' tournaments and two independent tournaments the UPA put a stranglehold on.
-Mid atlantic, Hopkins trade show, BCA Open, Big apple, Hopkins in vegas, capitol city classic, world summit of pool, Atlanta Open, UPA tour finals. Don't know which one your referring here to. Please be more specific. I count 9 here.
Your Fact: The only folks who are affected by the UPA are pool players and independent tournament promoters, a small public.
-If it's so ignsignificant why all the commotion? You forgot forum junkies...
Your Fact: The UPA offers NOTHING to its members other than being taken to court because the unsuspecting pool player signed a legally binding contract without benefit of counsel.
-UPA is working towards benefitting is top 64 players in many ways. They garuntee money will be paid to the players by the promoter, as well as give the player what they deserve in the industry ... power. You think it's right for promoters to throughout a $5,000 added event and get the best player to show up to fight over it? In time if promoters want the best they will have to up the money or get the short stops instead of the greats. This is why players join the upa. You act like guys like archer, souquet, immonen, etc. just show up and sign papers not knowing what the organization is all about.
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In short manlyman this newbie forum poster sees that you have no real argument other than website updates, and phone calls. Just remember that your opinion is irrelavent. Your "facts" are just vague enough to make a statement.
Your Fact: Requiring a pool player to sign a legal contract without benefit of counsel at commencement of tournaments is wrong.
- Not true, several pool-players have had the right to look over the contract from tourney to tourney. The contract is only for those who choose to become touring pro's. The contract has been in existence since February and discussed every player's meeting. Again, players are not forced to become touring pro's therefor not "forced" to sign a contract.
Your Fact: Charlie Williams, current UPA president, is a self-appointed non-veteran. A union consists of elected officials by its peers. Charlie Williams isn't old enough and does not have the wisdom to represent the membership of a pool "union."
On the onset of any organization pres', v.p.'s, officials, etc. must be set in order to actually have an organization. You don't start off having 150 players on tour. You start by going to local gov. agencies and filling out paperwork asking you who the officials are. Williams was the only man in pool smart enough and tough enough to do this. You claiming that he is not "old enough" is opinion not fact. You have plenty of people in the pool world twice charlie's age and still not "old enough." Obviously charlie has started the organization, grown the organization, and it is stronger not weaker than a year ago. So apparently he's doing something right.
Your Fact: Creating rules mid-tour with the sole intent of banning targeted pool players is discrimination.
-Your too vague here. Be specific. If your going to make such accusations in debate you need to give specific examples so that they can be specificaly argued. Perhaps this is good enough for forums, but not in a real world of debate.
Your Fact: UPA gives seeds and byes to pool players who are not current members of the UPA.
-Vague again, please enlighten us, so that we can confirm or deny your facts.
Your Fact: UPA allows seeded members to arrive at tournaments 1 and 2 days late, when all others have to be in attendance for the players meeting and incur considerable extra expense.
-Wow, I'm starting to see a pattern here manlyshot. Is is possible that someone has finally come and pointed out people on forums rant and rave without real facts. Please be specific, Let's just say in a court of law the judge Judy would be laughing right now.
Your Fact: The UPA website is not updated, contains out-dated and incorrect information, is non-responsive to phone/e-mail inquiries.
-see, you're on to something here. In my contact with them mentioned these problems. Web problems. Phone calls during events, and returning emails. Hardly makes them the ogre of pool, sounds like they need more help. Maybe you should answer their 100 calls a day Manly?
Your Fact: The so-called UPA "tour" consists of Charlie Williams' tournaments and two independent tournaments the UPA put a stranglehold on.
-Mid atlantic, Hopkins trade show, BCA Open, Big apple, Hopkins in vegas, capitol city classic, world summit of pool, Atlanta Open, UPA tour finals. Don't know which one your referring here to. Please be more specific. I count 9 here.
Your Fact: The only folks who are affected by the UPA are pool players and independent tournament promoters, a small public.
-If it's so ignsignificant why all the commotion? You forgot forum junkies...
Your Fact: The UPA offers NOTHING to its members other than being taken to court because the unsuspecting pool player signed a legally binding contract without benefit of counsel.
-UPA is working towards benefitting is top 64 players in many ways. They garuntee money will be paid to the players by the promoter, as well as give the player what they deserve in the industry ... power. You think it's right for promoters to throughout a $5,000 added event and get the best player to show up to fight over it? In time if promoters want the best they will have to up the money or get the short stops instead of the greats. This is why players join the upa. You act like guys like archer, souquet, immonen, etc. just show up and sign papers not knowing what the organization is all about.
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In short manlyman this newbie forum poster sees that you have no real argument other than website updates, and phone calls. Just remember that your opinion is irrelavent. Your "facts" are just vague enough to make a statement.
C
CrispyFish
Guest
Now look what I started, LOL.
There are so many posts bashing the UPA. I was just wondering why players would want to join in the first place. Either they're all idiots or they think there's a good reason for joining. They may end up unhappy and quit, but something compelled them to sign the first time.
cueball1950 said that's where the money is. Is that what a UPA member would say, if I asked him (and if he were being honest)?
-CF
There are so many posts bashing the UPA. I was just wondering why players would want to join in the first place. Either they're all idiots or they think there's a good reason for joining. They may end up unhappy and quit, but something compelled them to sign the first time.
cueball1950 said that's where the money is. Is that what a UPA member would say, if I asked him (and if he were being honest)?
-CF
Darren S. said:
What is a "touring pro"?
Why does a "touring pro" need to be a member of the UPA in order to play in a UPA-sanctioned tournament?
Why can't Corey Deuel compete in a UPA-sanctioned tournament, independently produced or Dragon Productions-produced or Charlie Williams-produced, by paying $25 like every other pool player in the world, except, of course, those doggone touring pros?
Are only UPA member pool players allowed to play in UPA-sanctioned events?
ManlyShot
Darren S. said:
Darren S., you're damn right, I think it is right for promoters to have a $5,000-added event and get the best players to show up.
The UPA is barking up the wrong tree when they go after the promoters.
Why can't the UPA reach outside this cash-poor pool industry instead of beating up the ones who are struggling, i.e., independent promoters and pool players?
You say "in time, if promoters want the best, they will have to up the money or get the short stops," and you sound just like Charlie Williams.
ManlyShot
Darren S. said:
And if Earl, Corey, Keith, Troy, and others don't "join" the UPA, they are BANNED from playing in tournaments that independent promoters produce, the same independent promoters the UPA puts a stranglehold on.
By the way, Darren S., are Frankie Hernandez and Kid Delicious current members of the UPA? I noticed they participated in the Fury World Summit in NYC. Did they sign the UPA contract?
ManlyShot
Joe T
New member
First off let me say I’m not sure the UPA is the answer or not. I do know what they are trying to do and I always come back to ask myself “if they don’t do what they’re trying to do, who will?”
Fact: Requiring a pool player to sign a legal contract without benefit of counsel at commencement of tournaments is wrong.
Any player can receive a copy of the contract long before attending the event and if they don’t take that privilege that’s on them.
Fact: Charlie Williams, current UPA president, is a self-appointed non-veteran. A union consists of elected officials by its peers. Charlie Williams isn't old enough and does not have the wisdom to represent the membership of a pool "union."
I know Charlie started the idea and invited others to join him and I think (I think) those players supported the idea of CW being the president of which he is stepping down from in DEC.(wishing the next guy more luck)
As far as him being old enough. I know a lot of old enough representatives that have done a fine job of screwing up their jobs (Don Mackey was great wasn’t he) and a lot of young ones that have succeeded in their endeavors.
Charlie wants pool to grow and doesn’t want to just sit back and wait for someone else to do it. I’m sure if someone has a better way, Charlie would support it whole heartedly.
I’m definitely sick of waiting around for some pool enthusiast to hit a 100 million dollar lottery or for some non pool based company to say hey lets take a shot at pool. Camel with all it’s billions failed but we can make it work.
Fact: Creating rules mid-tour with the sole intent of banning targeted pool players is discrimination.
If don’t adapt you will die. In any area of life.
Fact: UPA gives seeds and byes to pool players who are not current members of the UPA.
No comment, I don’t know the facts of where, when and how this happens but I can’t imagine tennis pro’s not supporting a seeding process. To play a top 32 player in Snooker I believe you had to work you’re way through 128-256 other players first. I love that concept, those players earned that right, they’re the best in the world.
Fact: UPA allows seeded members to arrive at tournaments 1 and 2 days late, when all others have to be in attendance for the players meeting and incur considerable extra expense.
Once again, I don’t know the facts but I do know that their intent is to cut down on all Touring Pro’s tournament expenses. Which is a definite necessity.
Fact: The UPA website is not updated, contains out-dated and incorrect information, is non-responsive to phone/e-mail inquiries.
I’m sure they’ll respond to any member but don’t have the manpower to answer just anybody and everybody’s whimsical questions.
Fact: The so-called UPA "tour" consists of Charlie Williams' tournaments and two independent tournaments the UPA put a stranglehold on.
If Charlie is smart enough promote a pool tournament and make himself and the pool players happy, why shouldn’t it be UPA sanctioned and why is that a bad thing?
Strangle hold yes. But sometimes the means can justify the end. The end they’re looking for is to have at least 128 qualified professionals be able to afford going to each and every event. If I’m a player and they make it affordable or god forbid profitable, I’m happy and if I’m a promoter and I know for sure I’m getting 128 of the best players in the country. I’m happy
Plus wasn’t it the Mid Atlantic, Valley forge, BCA, Big Apple, Gabriel in Vegas, Philly then the World Summit and Atlanta. 8 good events, they’re about 33% there.
Fact: The only folks who are affected by the UPA are pool players and independent tournament promoters, a small public.
Who else could they possible effect at this early stage? They don’t have any money. Do you think $100 a year membership from 1 or 2 hundred players can do anything else but barely keep them a float?
Fact: The UPA offers NOTHING to its members other than being taken to court because the unsuspecting pool player signed a legally binding contract without benefit of counsel.
You’re right they don’t offer much right now but once again what could they offer with no corporate sponsor. What would the PGA offer without corporate sponsors. They want to put on a professional tour of 128 solid professions. When this is accomplished they’ll have a product to market and yes they are already soliciting corporate sponsors. It would be much easier to ask for a million if we had 128 united pool players that were all looking out for each other. And they are in the process of seeking a group health plan for all members (of which many are in need).
Once again, I don’t know if they are the answer and we won’t find out till you have at least 100 top professionals all banding together to make a stand for men’s professional pool.
And if the UPA just throws in the towel right now as I’m sure you would like them to. What then? Do you have a plan you’re going to put into action? Or are you just going to criticize the next person that starts out with nothing but wants to help the sport.
I would like to see them reach 128 qualified touring professionals that can afford to travel to 20 or 30 tournament each year.
How can they do that?
By increasing added money from the average 10-25k to 60-100K or hopefully more and then decreasing or getting rid of the player entry fees for the players that have paved the way and earned that benefit, offer travel discounts, prescheduling matches to let players know which day they’ll be starting on and if they do offer that strong of a field (or product) they’ll be more likely to draw that extra money.
I don’t know much but I do know, if one doesn’t try one will not succeed. If you have an idea and are willing to donate the time these guys are, I would love to hear it and hopefully support it.
I’m not trying to be negative, I just want there to be an established pro tour that players have to earn a spot on and to be proud of that spot. Oh yeah, an earn a decent and honest living.
Joe T ranked 42nd on Camel tour before some greedy pool players decide to sue for a few bucks each and take away the best professional tour we ever had. And new UPA member.
And Cueball, Mackey was stiffing players way before the end, that's one of the reasons the Sports marketing team took over.
Fact: Requiring a pool player to sign a legal contract without benefit of counsel at commencement of tournaments is wrong.
Any player can receive a copy of the contract long before attending the event and if they don’t take that privilege that’s on them.
Fact: Charlie Williams, current UPA president, is a self-appointed non-veteran. A union consists of elected officials by its peers. Charlie Williams isn't old enough and does not have the wisdom to represent the membership of a pool "union."
I know Charlie started the idea and invited others to join him and I think (I think) those players supported the idea of CW being the president of which he is stepping down from in DEC.(wishing the next guy more luck)
As far as him being old enough. I know a lot of old enough representatives that have done a fine job of screwing up their jobs (Don Mackey was great wasn’t he) and a lot of young ones that have succeeded in their endeavors.
Charlie wants pool to grow and doesn’t want to just sit back and wait for someone else to do it. I’m sure if someone has a better way, Charlie would support it whole heartedly.
I’m definitely sick of waiting around for some pool enthusiast to hit a 100 million dollar lottery or for some non pool based company to say hey lets take a shot at pool. Camel with all it’s billions failed but we can make it work.
Fact: Creating rules mid-tour with the sole intent of banning targeted pool players is discrimination.
If don’t adapt you will die. In any area of life.
Fact: UPA gives seeds and byes to pool players who are not current members of the UPA.
No comment, I don’t know the facts of where, when and how this happens but I can’t imagine tennis pro’s not supporting a seeding process. To play a top 32 player in Snooker I believe you had to work you’re way through 128-256 other players first. I love that concept, those players earned that right, they’re the best in the world.
Fact: UPA allows seeded members to arrive at tournaments 1 and 2 days late, when all others have to be in attendance for the players meeting and incur considerable extra expense.
Once again, I don’t know the facts but I do know that their intent is to cut down on all Touring Pro’s tournament expenses. Which is a definite necessity.
Fact: The UPA website is not updated, contains out-dated and incorrect information, is non-responsive to phone/e-mail inquiries.
I’m sure they’ll respond to any member but don’t have the manpower to answer just anybody and everybody’s whimsical questions.
Fact: The so-called UPA "tour" consists of Charlie Williams' tournaments and two independent tournaments the UPA put a stranglehold on.
If Charlie is smart enough promote a pool tournament and make himself and the pool players happy, why shouldn’t it be UPA sanctioned and why is that a bad thing?
Strangle hold yes. But sometimes the means can justify the end. The end they’re looking for is to have at least 128 qualified professionals be able to afford going to each and every event. If I’m a player and they make it affordable or god forbid profitable, I’m happy and if I’m a promoter and I know for sure I’m getting 128 of the best players in the country. I’m happy
Plus wasn’t it the Mid Atlantic, Valley forge, BCA, Big Apple, Gabriel in Vegas, Philly then the World Summit and Atlanta. 8 good events, they’re about 33% there.
Fact: The only folks who are affected by the UPA are pool players and independent tournament promoters, a small public.
Who else could they possible effect at this early stage? They don’t have any money. Do you think $100 a year membership from 1 or 2 hundred players can do anything else but barely keep them a float?
Fact: The UPA offers NOTHING to its members other than being taken to court because the unsuspecting pool player signed a legally binding contract without benefit of counsel.
You’re right they don’t offer much right now but once again what could they offer with no corporate sponsor. What would the PGA offer without corporate sponsors. They want to put on a professional tour of 128 solid professions. When this is accomplished they’ll have a product to market and yes they are already soliciting corporate sponsors. It would be much easier to ask for a million if we had 128 united pool players that were all looking out for each other. And they are in the process of seeking a group health plan for all members (of which many are in need).
Once again, I don’t know if they are the answer and we won’t find out till you have at least 100 top professionals all banding together to make a stand for men’s professional pool.
And if the UPA just throws in the towel right now as I’m sure you would like them to. What then? Do you have a plan you’re going to put into action? Or are you just going to criticize the next person that starts out with nothing but wants to help the sport.
I would like to see them reach 128 qualified touring professionals that can afford to travel to 20 or 30 tournament each year.
How can they do that?
By increasing added money from the average 10-25k to 60-100K or hopefully more and then decreasing or getting rid of the player entry fees for the players that have paved the way and earned that benefit, offer travel discounts, prescheduling matches to let players know which day they’ll be starting on and if they do offer that strong of a field (or product) they’ll be more likely to draw that extra money.
I don’t know much but I do know, if one doesn’t try one will not succeed. If you have an idea and are willing to donate the time these guys are, I would love to hear it and hopefully support it.
I’m not trying to be negative, I just want there to be an established pro tour that players have to earn a spot on and to be proud of that spot. Oh yeah, an earn a decent and honest living.
Joe T ranked 42nd on Camel tour before some greedy pool players decide to sue for a few bucks each and take away the best professional tour we ever had. And new UPA member.
And Cueball, Mackey was stiffing players way before the end, that's one of the reasons the Sports marketing team took over.
Joe T said:
Joe T, sad to say, but I fail to see pool rising to the level of golf, but I hope I am wrong. To compare the PGA, even a young PGA, to the UPA isn't a good analogy (IMO).
It is nice to hear from a pool player such as yourself on the good points of UPA membership. You are absolutely correct about pool needing a product to market, but (IMO) the UPA, in an effort to create this product, is targeting the wrong folks: economically impaired pool players and independent promoters. To put a stranglehold on independent promoters, to ban pool players from tournaments who won't sign the UPA legaldocument, and to label the non-signee a "Touring Pro" to prevent this pool player from playing in a tournament is causing damage to an already suffering sport.
Indeed, if an organization such as the UPA offers health benefits, a men's tour, and/or new sponsors, ANYTHING LIKE THIS, it would certainly help its members. I don't know if you are what the UPA considers a "touring pro," but this UPA contract looks out for the interests of the UPA only, not the prospective UPA member's interests.
Enjoyed reading your post.
ManlyShot
Darren S. said:
Hundreds of calls per day, Darren S.? Somehow I find it difficult understanding how you would know that unless you work for the UPA.
As far as my opinion being irrelevant, I am respecting your opinion on this forum, but you should attempt to recognize, and try to respect, mine.
ManlyShot
Joe T
New member
Joe T, sad to say, but I fail to see pool rising to the level of golf, but I hope I am wrong. To compare the PGA, even a young PGA, to the UPA isn't a good analogy (IMO).
Just looking for it to raise at least to the level of Men’s Snooker for now. How’s that?
It is nice to hear from a pool player such as yourself on the good points of UPA membership. You are absolutely correct about pool needing a product to market, but (IMO) the UPA, in an effort to create this product, is targeting the wrong folks: economically impaired pool players and independent promoters.
I don’t think they can target anyone else (corporations) to begin with. If you don’t have the player unite, you don’t have a product.
To put a stranglehold on independent promoters, to ban pool players from tournaments who won't sign the UPA legal document, and to label the non-signee a "Touring Pro" to prevent this pool player from playing in a tournament is causing damage to an already suffering sport.
Causes damage to a few pool players that may just be worried about themselves and not worried about the future of our sport. I know they have to eat but joining the UPA wouldn’t take any food out of their mouths. I know you’re going to say but they can’t compete in any competing tournaments. Not completely true. UPA offers waivers if a player wishes to compete elsewhere during one of their events . And if they all pulled together their tour would be their priority and maybe the more profitable.
I think the players not uniting causes more damage than anything else I’ve seen so far. Beside people stiffing them. That’s pretty discouraging.
Indeed, if an organization such as the UPA offers health benefits, a men's tour, and/or new sponsors, ANYTHING LIKE THIS, it would certainly help its members. I don't know if you are what the UPA considers a "touring pro," but this UPA contract looks out for the interests of the UPA only, not the prospective UPA member's interests.
The UPA is and will just be for it’s members. I think they should publicly display their mission statement and ask for public opinion and support as to how they can reach their goals as quickly and calmly as possible. And I wish they would work that stupid incident out with one of the greatest players of all time.
Just looking for it to raise at least to the level of Men’s Snooker for now. How’s that?
It is nice to hear from a pool player such as yourself on the good points of UPA membership. You are absolutely correct about pool needing a product to market, but (IMO) the UPA, in an effort to create this product, is targeting the wrong folks: economically impaired pool players and independent promoters.
I don’t think they can target anyone else (corporations) to begin with. If you don’t have the player unite, you don’t have a product.
To put a stranglehold on independent promoters, to ban pool players from tournaments who won't sign the UPA legal document, and to label the non-signee a "Touring Pro" to prevent this pool player from playing in a tournament is causing damage to an already suffering sport.
Causes damage to a few pool players that may just be worried about themselves and not worried about the future of our sport. I know they have to eat but joining the UPA wouldn’t take any food out of their mouths. I know you’re going to say but they can’t compete in any competing tournaments. Not completely true. UPA offers waivers if a player wishes to compete elsewhere during one of their events . And if they all pulled together their tour would be their priority and maybe the more profitable.
I think the players not uniting causes more damage than anything else I’ve seen so far. Beside people stiffing them. That’s pretty discouraging.
Indeed, if an organization such as the UPA offers health benefits, a men's tour, and/or new sponsors, ANYTHING LIKE THIS, it would certainly help its members. I don't know if you are what the UPA considers a "touring pro," but this UPA contract looks out for the interests of the UPA only, not the prospective UPA member's interests.
The UPA is and will just be for it’s members. I think they should publicly display their mission statement and ask for public opinion and support as to how they can reach their goals as quickly and calmly as possible. And I wish they would work that stupid incident out with one of the greatest players of all time.