Why look at the Object Ball?

[ramdadingdong]

first of all,,,,you ARE aiming(staring) at the OB when you are lining the shot up. the pivot comes afterwards. and if you have a straight stroke, you should even be able to close your eyes and still pocket a ball.

assuming that it works most of the time,,,"always"...so ginky told me, and that you have adjusted for the proper bridge length/cue shaft/deflection/etc required for an accurate execution of the pivot style,,,,and if your stroke is true, you can let go and pocket the OB. AND EVEN IF YOUR STROKE IS NOT QUITE TRUE, the theory of pivot english should work anyway because the theory says, "if you line up center ball(CB) to your chosen line of aim, and then pick your "english" point on the cb and shoot through the cb, you will make the shot with the intended english." this also means, de facto, that even if you were slightly off on where you want to hit the cb, all will be compensated for and you will STILL make the shot with english, because the point of pivot english is, "you can move the cue tip ANYWHERE(within reason and after properly lining up) on the cb and execute the shot.

of course,,,lining up on center ball is no easy task in the first place, and maybe only the better players with the better stroke and the better idea of where centerball is,,,can do it.

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Let me try and understand this, I am aiming in the center of the pocket with my cue tip on the center of the cue ball, If I hit, the ob ball splits the pocket, we all agree on this. Now I pivot, aim one tip right, hit the cue ball one tip of english, will that not now throw the OB left into the point and if you are farther away miss the pocket entirely, especially if you are using a high deflection cue? Am I missing something here or what? The throw would be the same if I slide over parallel, or just aim right, which means I am now have made a new stroke line not straight, but across that old line which will even increase the throw more.
Best Wishes,
Fast Larry

 

[Bluewolf]

____________________________________________________________
Let me try and understand this, I am aiming in the center of the pocket with my cue tip on the center of the cue ball, If I hit, the ob ball splits the pocket, we all agree on this. Now I pivot, aim one tip right, hit the cue ball one tip of english, will that not now throw the OB left into the point and if you are farther away miss the pocket entirely, especially if you are using a high deflection cue? Am I missing something here or what? The throw would be the same if I slide over parallel, or just aim right, which means I am now have made a new stroke line not straight, but across that old line which will even increase the throw more.
Best Wishes,
Fast Larry

What you are missing Larry is this. You are trying to figure this out with your left/analytical brain which will nearly always give you the wrong answers. Colin is playing and advocating letting the brain operate in a feel mode by making its own adjustments on an unconscious/feel/right brained level.

Now I never thought of it before but it is what I hear Colin saying.

Laura

 

[ramdadingdong]

Many players do this, and can learn to swipe, or hitch as you say, with great consistancy. It is like an intuition has developed to help you find the pot angle.

So I find, when I am playing with my highest accuracy, that I am staring at a line through the object ball to the pocket and my swing just naturally adjusts to shoot along the right line. I guess it's from hitting millions of balls.

The three key steps for me are:

1. See the line the obect ball must take to the pocket with this line appearing at the contact point of the ball.

2. Focus on this point while you are moving to position until it feels like you are lined up.

3. Hit the ball still focusing on the contact point on the object ball, with the intention to send the object ball along the path line you have ascertained to be correct.

If you can do these, without letting a hundred other thoughts sneak into your mind, you are on your way to developing a high accuracy potting game.

_______________________________________________________________
I agree, this is what I do, yes, to see these lines and angles, the sad news is you must pot one million balls. Most people pot about 200 balls a session. If they play 7 days a week in 14 years they will have it. Now pot 525 balls a day and in 5 years you are there. Most people just do not put in enough time and practice and pot enough balls to acquire this feel and skill. The biggest problem I have teaching newbies is they can't see the cut line.

My method is I allow my on board cpu to do everything for me, to factor all of these variables in which it can do in a New York Fento second because I get out of its way and let it do its job. I do not interfer with it or direct it or give it orders, I follow what it wants to do. I call this a leap of faith. Zen pool.

If I have a duck sitting in the pocket and I am standing up in parade dress sizing up the shot and I want to go up table and need to put two tips right english on the cue ball at 3:00 to hit my shape spot, I don't think that, I just see where I want the cue ball to go and my cpu figures out how to do it. I plant my hand and my cpu places everything in its final perfect spot. When my hand hits the table my cue tip is at 3:00 two tips over and my eyes are parallel with the center line of the cue ball looking down the english line two tips right of center. I may make some very minor hand adjustment but they are always slight. I can plant my hand, pull back and shoot and pot, my plant is that perfect.

Study all the great snooker potters, Steve Davis, Jimmy White, when their hand plants the shot is gone in 3 seconds. There is no time for them to be thinking about any thing let alone making all sorts of hand and shaft adjustments to the line and calculating that. They are down, bang de boom and gone, same on Stricklin, same on Greenleaf and Mosconi.

Ralph Greenleaf firmly believed your eyes had to be on the aim line looking right down it and he taught this to Mosconi. If you set up with your cue tip on the center of the CB and your eyes are on the center of that CB, if you now decide to put two tips right, you slide the shaft parallel to that original line and then shift your head and eyes over right to look down that new line. That was Ralph's method and he was only the greatest pocket player of all time. If you do not agree with that, then do not argue with me, send ralph an email. ralphgreenleaf@heaven.com
I am just the messenger of what he taught, do not shoot your messengers.
All I know is I now know nothing. All I teach, is what Hoppe, Greenleaf and Mosconi did. if you want some of that, then come see me. If you argue with me, you are then arguing with those 3 Gods.
Best Wishes,
Fast Larry

 

[Bluewolf]

This does not make sense to me. Why not line up initially with the eng ur going to use instead of adding head and /or alignments motions to the process?

I just want to shoot, I guess and not make things all complicated.

Am i not understanding something?

Laura

 

[ramdadingdong]

What you are missing Larry is this. You are trying to figure this out with your left/analytical brain which will nearly always give you the wrong answers. Colin is playing and advocating letting the brain operate in a feel mode by making its own adjustments on an unconscious/feel/right brained level.

Now I never thought of it before but it is what I hear Colin saying.

Laura

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No no, that is exactly what I agree with and do, that is what I have been teaching you also for the last two years. When I play, my left brain, my monkey brain is totally shut off, completely. I play with zero thought, which for me is very easy because I don't have nuttin rolling around up dare to confuse me anyway. Tee hee hee, everyone go cut and paste that one. The dull empty mind plays best, in pool, in golf, they can't out think them selves, they just want to put the ball in the hole and do that with no thought. They never get in their own way and shoot them selves in the foot. They asked Joe Dimaggio how he became the greatest hitter of his time and he said I dunno, dey just toss the ball at me and I wack it over the shortstops head.
That was as deep as it got with him. Naturals, I hate all of them. I am jealous of them.

I have passed a mensa test, am in the upper 98% of the us iq population and am an electronic engineer by trade. I am not bragging about that, in fact I consider that a curse as a pool player. My mind used to race and I tried to control everything mechanically. My monkey brain would say do this and I would over rule it and miss. Then I read every damn thing written and went very deep into total paralysis by analysis. What I began to realize was the smarter you are, the higher your IQ, the more technical your world is, I worked out of silicone valley, the more you analyzed what you were doing in pool and they more you needed to control every facet of your game. In short, you are doomed to never play an A game.

I became a teacher of the game and spent 4 full years teaching snooker, 3-cushion and pool at Georgia Tech Univeristy in Atlanta, the MIT of the south. I was also the coach of the yellow jacket pool team. All of my students are now also very high iq's and engineers. I have had years of study teaching these types of people and seeing them struggle with a game that is fairly simple to others. I finally learned how to get through to them, how to teach them, but it took me twice the time to do that over a less than normal iq person who was not the sharpiest knife in the drawer. I have to teach them mechanically, then take it away from them and teach them to now play the game by feel only. This is very hard for these people to do. This is a feel game, of that, there is no question.

What set me free, was just giving up all of this control and learning how to practice perfect. I put in 3 months of this and went out and ran 6 racks in a tourney of 8 ball, the run was interrupted by a fight. The guy could see I was playing perfect and was going 8 and out in a race to 8 so he jumped up to stop me and to break up the run which he did do. Two weeks later I ran 8 racks again an unfinished run, the guy I was gambling with pulled up and quit. I knew then I had found it, that I finally knew. Right after that I ran 5 racks of rotation in a row. The runs, proved I knew, that is the bottom line.

You have a lot of phd's teaching all this technical mumbo jumbo that only leads to total paralysis by analysis. To become a world champion, you do not have to understand any of this. If understanding this was so important, if that was the key to this, then these egg heads would be running hundreds of balls and never missing. The truth is these guys can't run 3 friggen balls.
They are locked up tigher than Al Capone was.

I have 15 years of teaching experience and over a half century of experience playing the game. I have learned a lot in that time and I now try and share some of that with you people now. Some want it and seek it, others do not, C' est la vie.
Fast Larry

 

[ramdadingdong]

yeah,,,,i noticed that when i cut a ball i hitch my swing to create outside english. i tried to correct this,,,,,,(but i only spent a half hour on it). when i shot a straight in shot, my stroke was straight, but cutting the ball made me hitch my swing. this drove me friggin" nuts!!!

you don't know how hard i consciously tried to stroke straight on a cut shot. but it was like my forearm had a mind of its own. i gave up in frustration.

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That swipe across the cue ball was picked up from Hoppe, who did that and felt it gave him more English on the ball and was an advantage. He wrote this in his books and people began to copy it. Don Feeney teaches this.

Hoppe held his light cue with only two fingers, the index finger and the thumb, the rest of his fingers fly loose in his tea cup grip. Nobody does that today. I used the same grip from the 40's up to 1993, so I am an expert on this. The good news is you can do some amazing things with the cue ball, the bad news is there is a twist that happens naturally. You don't have enough fingers to hold on to the club and at impact the cue goes with the english across the face of the ball. The shaft never goes perfectly straight down the line it always deflects off of that line some. Hoppe did not play pool, he only played billiards, mostly a soft straight rail game and balkline.

When he moved to 3-cushion, there he now had to use a lot of spin on the CB and he felt his natural swipe or wipe gave him this added spin. Remember Hoppe could care less how much throw he put on his OB because he never had to pot his OB, he just played off of it to run around 3 cushion to run into a different ball. His total focus was putting english on the cue ball. His objectives are quite different on what the pool player faces with throw and deflection. I can achieve that same spin Hoppe got by swiping and wiping by hitting parallel to the center line and following straight down that line and never allowing my cue shaft to go left or right of that line. That is my method. Watch Cuelemans or Sayginer and watch them do the same exact thing I am doing.

I always new that twist or wipe was there with my old tea cup hold and I fought it for years and had to practice 4 hrs a day just to control it and eliminate it. I then acquired and read and understood the A.D. Moore thesis on Hoppes total game and swing, 200 physic professors studied him for an entire weekend. I then realized Hoppe just played the twist, he just went with it. You can see this very clearly when you watch films of him playing which I have many and have studied in frame by frame.
They even studied and described in detail with diagrams how he hit his 9 rail bank. After understanding this, I went out and became the first person in history to hit and prove a 10, then 11, then a 12 rail bank.

This is why Greenleaf added to his tea cup grip the long bird finger, to hold down the twist and Mosconi added the ring finger having 4 fingers on the cue.
I do not agree with this swipe method because it is a move that is not precise and there are too many variables with it. I normally want to reduce my English and throw and deflection to an absolute minimum. That is what I teach, a lot of center ball and maintaining the half ball hit to go to ball to ball, what Greenleaf called the golden angle. I do not teach this swipe and wipe, I do not recommend it.
Best Wishes,

Fast Larry

 

[ramdadingdong]

Bruin did a good job summarizing the natural conclusion of pivot english theory.

These are:

1. Staring at the object ball while setting up centre point allignment is crucial.

2. After that, focusing on the object ball has little purpose other than, it's as good a place as any to rest our eyes.

But, so many experts have told us how important it is for them to hold their eyes on the object ball as they shoot.

Here is Why you should look at the Object Ball
The fact is, all but freak players with robot like allignment, often allign incorrectly and need to make adjustments in their final stroke to actually make the ball. By staring at the ball they kind of second guess, and let their instincts take over to pull or push the cue ball left or right during the follow through as needed.

This is actually how most top players have achieved their highest levels of accuracy.

Here is How It Works
According to the thinking of many pivot english enthusiasts, the line of the cue ball does not alter significantly event with quite large amounts of english of the ball.

But I proffer that we can and in fact most of us already do use a way to deviate the cue ball left and right significantly without hitting far from the position on the cue ball we were alligned to.

What we do, is swoop, or swipe slightly accross the face of the cue ball in a kind of subconscious way to adjust our allignment to make the pot.

Swiping the cue ball slightly, especially on near centre ball hits, significantly changes the direction of the cue ball. Swipe left, the cue ball goes further to the left than if you hit through the ball with a straight cue action. Swipe right and it moves to the right.

The general tendency of most players is to swipe toward a thinner contact on the ball, to increase their consistancy of making the pot. eg. If cutting the object ball to the right of straight, therefore hitting the object ball on the left side. A player will often allign to the shot too thick and use a little swipe to send the cue ball further to the left than his original aim.

Most do not realize they are doing this, but it is nearly a universal habit. Go watch guys play closely, and see how many swipe the cue slightly in this direction.

Why People form this Habit
Most people tend to learn the game making the mistake of alligning to the contact point on the object ball, rather than to the centre of the ghost ball.
See diagram below:

Click here if the image doesn't display.

Because many people allign to thick on the ball in the beginning, they develop a compensatory swipe on the cue ball to achieve the angle required to pot the object ball. Most players are not conscious that they are doing this.

So the reason players have found it crucial to stare at the object ball as they make the final stroke, is that it allows them to make minor, unconscious adjustments by swiping slightly left or right in order to achieve the aim they feel is correct. In essence their feel takes over.

I believe in practice, these minor adjustment are necessary for very accurate play. Very few people can allign so perfectly that they can simply cue robotically straight through the cue ball and pot to high accuracy consistantly without last second minor adjustments by swiping.

To test this, try to pot 50 difficult shots closing you eyes before you shoot, and then try the same shot normally. You'll likely find that you are making slight, but necessary adjustments by slight swiping of the cue.

_______________________________________________________________

You see this is another problem people forget, look at the diagram in green, it is posted above this where you have the easy cut pot in the corner. The cue is hitting center ball on the cue ball and it shows potting straight in the middle of the pocket, where the ghost ball hits. This is why I do not teach the ghost ball method and feel it is totally wrong. That ball would not pot along the angle drawn, there is a thing called cling, the balls stick together and cling, it drags right of that line, you would be in danger of hitting the right point. The more dirty the balls, the more they cling and the more they throw. That is why balls will throw and cling more in a bar where they are never cleaned to less in a pool hall that just wipes them down at night with a towel.

To escape the cling, you aim at the left of the pocket and the balls cling and drag back to the original aim line. If I had to hit reverse the balls cling and drag right, the left english throws the ball further right, so I now have to aim at the left point to pot, the inside left facing which is why so many people screw up inside english and don't use it. They do not understand cling and cannot adjust their aim points for it. They are using this ghost ball aim method for every shot and you are doooooomed using this method.

If there is no position to hit, the proper way to hit this shot is with a half to one tip right english. The balls cling and drag right, the right english throws the OB back on the center of the pocket aim line. Most good players cut balls up close with running english. When I get further away and on long shots, like the spot shot, then I use center ball so the curve and deflection does not prevent me from hitting my aim point on the OB. I hit all long cuts no matter how thin with center ball for that same reason. I make my living as a professional player performing trick shot shows where we must become the ultimate experts on throw and cling. These things also change as the temperature and humidity change during the day, the type of cloth changes it, moisture on the balls occur in high humidity or if it's raining out side, all the cuts change and that is why you play bad when it rails, now you know. You did not adjust for the changed conditions.


Best Wishes,

Fast Larry

 

[Colin Colenso]

____________________________________________________________
Let me try and understand this, I am aiming in the center of the pocket with my cue tip on the center of the cue ball, If I hit, the ob ball splits the pocket, we all agree on this. Now I pivot, aim one tip right, hit the cue ball one tip of english, will that not now throw the OB left into the point and if you are farther away miss the pocket entirely, especially if you are using a high deflection cue? Am I missing something here or what? The throw would be the same if I slide over parallel, or just aim right, which means I am now have made a new stroke line not straight, but across that old line which will even increase the throw more.
Best Wishes,
Fast Larry

This is just pivot (backhand) english. This is what many 'qualified' instructor teach to wannabes.

If the bridge is at the pivot point (length for that particular cue where deflection is cancelled out by moving cue to the side), then once alligned, as you stated above, centre ball, then you can supposedly move the cue tip one or two tips left or right and the object ball will go into the centre of the pocket, along the same line as when alligned centre ball.

Low deflection cue has long pivot point (bridge length) while high deflection cue has short pivot point (bridge length).

The point of my starting this thread was to say that this is not an accurate method. In fact I doubt that the deflection will exactly cancel out for 1/2 tip. 1 tip and 2 tips english for any specified pivot length. I believe there will be variation.

I also believe that using the pivot method encourages players to rely on their first allignment, rather than to make small adjustments based on feel in the later stages of allignment and execution of the shot.

Also. pivot english will not account for the change of cue ball direction achieved by swiping accross the cue ball even slightly.

I maintain that most of the greatest players utilise this swiping as a method for minor last minute adjustments. Also, prior to this, small bridge and cue allignment methods are made to prepare the shot to feel right.

Using pivot english discourages any minor adjustments after the bridge is alligned with cue centre ball. If you are adjusting after this, you may as well just allign your cue directly to where you want to strike the ball, or into the position you want to start your initial swing from if you like to swipe to another point on the final hit. (Bustamante often does this).

 

[ramdadingdong]

This is just pivot (backhand) english. This is what many 'qualified' instructor teach to wannabes.

If the bridge is at the pivot point (length for that particular cue where deflection is cancelled out by moving cue to the side), then once alligned, as you stated above, centre ball, then you can supposedly move the cue tip one or two tips left or right and the object ball will go into the centre of the pocket, along the same line as when alligned centre ball.

Low deflection cue has long pivot point (bridge length) while high deflection cue has short pivot point (bridge length).

The point of my starting this thread was to say that this is not an accurate method. In fact I doubt that the deflection will exactly cancel out for 1/2 tip. 1 tip and 2 tips english for any specified pivot length. I believe there will be variation.

I also believe that using the pivot method encourages players to rely on their first allignment, rather than to make small adjustments based on feel in the later stages of allignment and execution of the shot.

Also. pivot english will not account for the change of cue ball direction achieved by swiping accross the cue ball even slightly.

I maintain that most of the greatest players utilise this swiping as a method for minor last minute adjustments. Also, prior to this, small bridge and cue allignment methods are made to prepare the shot to feel right.

Using pivot english discourages any minor adjustments after the bridge is alligned with cue centre ball. If you are adjusting after this, you may as well just allign your cue directly to where you want to strike the ball, or into the position you want to start your initial swing from if you like to swipe to another point on the final hit. (Bustamante often does this).

_______________________________________________________________

Glad we are on the same page here, my initial plant of my hand is about 98% accurate, but I always are making some small minor adjustments to my hand and aim, that is why my eyes go up and down several times, to check and adjust that aim, fine tune it to hit an exact point.

A lot of club players get into the bad habit of aiming at a fuzzy ball and not an exact aim point on that ball. I straighten out a lot of students and get them back on track when they begin doing this, now they are a pool player and not a ball banger.

Best Wishes,
Fast Larry

 

[bruin70]

This does not make sense to me. Why not line up initially with the eng ur going to use instead of adding head and /or alignments motions to the process?

I just want to shoot, I guess and not make things all complicated.

Am i not understanding something?

Laura

because the "advantage" of using pivot english, laura, is that you always aim the same, ie, your are aiming centerball on the CB to a line to the OB as if you were simply trying to pocket the shot normally,,,,,,,,,like if you were making a normal shot. the pivot to apply english comes after you're lined up.

with parallel english(what you are using), you are lining up your shot on the side of the CB you expect to apply english with,,,,therefore you are always compensating your line of aim by picking a different spot on the OB with whichever english you want to apply.

see........ with pivot english, there is no guesswork,,,,you are on your CB with centerball aim. with parallel, you are always guessing where you're line to the OB is in order to compensate for the fact that you are on your CB with english.

 

[Colin Colenso]

_______________________________________________________________

You see this is another problem people forget, look at the diagram in green, it is posted above this where you have the easy cut pot in the corner. The cue is hitting center ball on the cue ball and it shows potting straight in the middle of the pocket, where the ghost ball hits. This is why I do not teach the ghost ball method and feel it is totally wrong. That ball would not pot along the angle drawn, there is a thing called cling, the balls stick together and cling, it drags right of that line, you would be in danger of hitting the right point. The more dirty the balls, the more they cling and the more they throw. That is why balls will throw and cling more in a bar where they are never cleaned to less in a pool hall that just wipes them down at night with a towel.

To escape the cling, you aim at the left of the pocket and the balls cling and drag back to the original aim line. If I had to hit reverse the balls cling and drag right, the left english throws the ball further right, so I now have to aim at the left point to pot, the inside left facing which is why so many people screw up inside english and don't use it. They do not understand cling and cannot adjust their aim points for it. They are using this ghost ball aim method for every shot and you are doooooomed using this method.

If there is no position to hit, the proper way to hit this shot is with a half to one tip right english. The balls cling and drag right, the right english throws the OB back on the center of the pocket aim line. Most good players cut balls up close with running english. When I get further away and on long shots, like the spot shot, then I use center ball so the curve and deflection does not prevent me from hitting my aim point on the OB. I hit all long cuts no matter how thin with center ball for that same reason. I make my living as a professional player performing trick shot shows where we must become the ultimate experts on throw and cling. These things also change as the temperature and humidity change during the day, the type of cloth changes it, moisture on the balls occur in high humidity or if it's raining out side, all the cuts change and that is why you play bad when it rails, now you know. You did not adjust for the changed conditions.


Best Wishes,

Fast Larry

Larry,
Of course you are right about cling, which some people call throw, which is basically caused by friction at the balls surfaces, estimated to be about 2% by Robert Byrne. Though this figure will vary upon conditions as you mentioned, especially if the balls have just been polished.

I did not want to complicate that diagram. It's main point is to highlight the common habit of beginners, often taught to them by other players, to aim the cue at the contact point. Along line B as shown in my diagram.

I believe many players learn to allign this way, at least on near full ball to 1/2 ball hits, and this is the reason they intuitively learn to pull or push accross the ball (swipe) on their final hit to have a chance of making the pot.

I also do not recommend that players try to allign by imagining the ghost ball. I do not think this method is intuitive. The method I recommend is that you simply feel that the shot is going in, based on the angles you are observing and the previous experience you have with similar shots.

On the particular shot in the diagram, I would prefer to play the shot with a touch of right side as it increases the margin for error. That is, I can hit maybe 1mm either side of the perfect aim and still make the pot. If I play with inside english, the contact point is thinner and the margin for error may only be 0.8mm either side of the perfect line.

Also, as players tend to play outside english more often than inside english, the feel of allignment should be better developed to attain accuracy.

This is one reason why players should practice all types of shots so that they have a better ability to feel how to make the shots that may be necessary in a real match.

 

[Colin Colenso]

What you are missing Larry is this. You are trying to figure this out with your left/analytical brain which will nearly always give you the wrong answers. Colin is playing and advocating letting the brain operate in a feel mode by making its own adjustments on an unconscious/feel/right brained level.

Now I never thought of it before but it is what I hear Colin saying.

Laura

Hi Laura,
You are right on my meaning, even though I don't use the terms left(analytical) v right (unconscious/feel) brain to describe it. I think feel is adequate.

From what I know about Larry's beliefs, he holds a similar position. We may find disagreement at some point, but basically we think feel is the key, and that turning away analytical thoughts during the shot is key to obtaining more intuitive feel for the shot to be made, and of executing it with the many variables of speed, allignment, cue ball impact, grip strength, accelleration etc. It is just too much to analyse in a 1/10th of a second. It just needs to feel right.

 

[ramdadingdong]

Larry,
Of course you are right about cling, which some people call throw, which is basically caused by friction at the balls surfaces, estimated to be about 2% by Robert Byrne. Though this figure will vary upon conditions as you mentioned, especially if the balls have just been polished.

I did not want to complicate that diagram. It's main point is to highlight the common habit of beginners, often taught to them by other players, to aim the cue at the contact point. Along line B as shown in my diagram.

I believe many players learn to allign this way, at least on near full ball to 1/2 ball hits, and this is the reason they intuitively learn to pull or push accross the ball (swipe) on their final hit to have a chance of making the pot.

I also do not recommend that players try to allign by imagining the ghost ball. I do not think this method is intuitive. The method I recommend is that you simply feel that the shot is going in, based on the angles you are observing and the previous experience you have with similar shots.

On the particular shot in the diagram, I would prefer to play the shot with a touch of right side as it increases the margin for error. That is, I can hit maybe 1mm either side of the perfect aim and still make the pot. If I play with inside english, the contact point is thinner and the margin for error may only be 0.8mm either side of the perfect line.

Also, as players tend to play outside english more often than inside english, the feel of allignment should be better developed to attain accuracy.

This is one reason why players should practice all types of shots so that they have a better ability to feel how to make the shots that may be necessary in a real match.

_____________________________________________________________

Once more we are in perfect agreement on every point. The problem Colin is there is a ton of players out there who have been taught this ghost ball aiming system and are missing a lot of cuts and they frankly do not have a clue why. I even had an apa 6 come to me for lessons and he did not know this so it ranges through the entire gambit of players. When I take the time to explain this to them on the table most of them are flabbergasted to finally understand it and then know where the error of their ways was.

Best Wishes,

Fast Larry

 

[ramdadingdong]

_____________________________________________________________

Once more we are in perfect agreement on every point. The problem Colin is there is a ton of players out there who have been taught this ghost ball aiming system and are missing a lot of cuts and they frankly do not have a clue why. I even had an apa 6 come to me for lessons and he did not know this so it ranges through the entire gambit of players. When I take the time to explain this to them on the table most of them are flabbergasted to finally understand it and then know where the error of their ways was. I even had one lady 4 who was hitting all of these cuts with inside when she should have been hitting them all with running side. She had it exactly opposite of what she should have been doing. It took me forever to get that one across to her. She was convinced hitting these shots with inside was the right way to play.
You probably call it Reverse check down under, right mate.
Best Wishes,
Fast Larry

 

[Colin Colenso]

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I agree, this is what I do, yes, to see these lines and angles, the sad news is you must pot one million balls. Most people pot about 200 balls a session. If they play 7 days a week in 14 years they will have it. Now pot 525 balls a day and in 5 years you are there. Most people just do not put in enough time and practice and pot enough balls to acquire this feel and skill. The biggest problem I have teaching newbies is they can't see the cut line.

My method is I allow my on board cpu to do everything for me, to factor all of these variables in which it can do in a New York Fento second because I get out of its way and let it do its job. I do not interfer with it or direct it or give it orders, I follow what it wants to do. I call this a leap of faith. Zen pool.

If I have a duck sitting in the pocket and I am standing up in parade dress sizing up the shot and I want to go up table and need to put two tips right english on the cue ball at 3:00 to hit my shape spot, I don't think that, I just see where I want the cue ball to go and my cpu figures out how to do it. I plant my hand and my cpu places everything in its final perfect spot. When my hand hits the table my cue tip is at 3:00 two tips over and my eyes are parallel with the center line of the cue ball looking down the english line two tips right of center. I may make some very minor hand adjustment but they are always slight. I can plant my hand, pull back and shoot and pot, my plant is that perfect.

Study all the great snooker potters, Steve Davis, Jimmy White, when their hand plants the shot is gone in 3 seconds. There is no time for them to be thinking about any thing let alone making all sorts of hand and shaft adjustments to the line and calculating that. They are down, bang de boom and gone, same on Stricklin, same on Greenleaf and Mosconi.

Ralph Greenleaf firmly believed your eyes had to be on the aim line looking right down it and he taught this to Mosconi. If you set up with your cue tip on the center of the CB and your eyes are on the center of that CB, if you now decide to put two tips right, you slide the shaft parallel to that original line and then shift your head and eyes over right to look down that new line. That was Ralph's method and he was only the greatest pocket player of all time. If you do not agree with that, then do not argue with me, send ralph an email. ralphgreenleaf@heaven.com
I am just the messenger of what he taught, do not shoot your messengers.
All I know is I now know nothing. All I teach, is what Hoppe, Greenleaf and Mosconi did. if you want some of that, then come see me. If you argue with me, you are then arguing with those 3 Gods.
Best Wishes,
Fast Larry

Your points are pretty good Larry.

Though I think it is only when players are right in the zone that they can put their hand and cue down in the perfect position immediately. Often they need some warming up, or lose their feel a little and need to take a little time to make slight adjustments before they shoot.

Also, one of the points here, that I'd like you to comment on, is that even many of the top snooker players swipe slightly accross the ball, particularly when they are playing with side. They even do it on long, difficult centre ball shots as a way to make final adjustments.

It's a bit like their brain rapidly calculates that...oops, it's gonna miss, swipe left.

I know I observe this in my own game, and have had better success by just letting it happen rather than to fight against it and try to force the cue through perfectly straight. Now I am a pretty straight cueist, and have spent many hours training a straight delivery, but I feel these minor adjustment that come intuitively, are very helpfull in gaining increased accuracy if the brain is in the right mode.

Have you noticed this in your own play, or observed it in other's play?

 

[Colin Colenso]

I even had one lady 4 who was hitting all of these cuts with inside when she should have been hitting them all with running side. She had it exactly opposite of what she should have been doing. It took me forever to get that one across to her. She was convinced hitting these shots with inside was the right way to play.
You probably call it Reverse check down under, right mate.
Best Wishes,
Fast Larry

We would just call this check side. Some guys, like my father call it check sight, cause they never read a book on it and the sound just got mistaken.

For those curious about why it is called 'check', it is because check side (inside english) often checks the speed and angle of the cue ball off the cushion. By check we mean it slows the speed and reduces the angle.

But this is not true of all shots with inside english. On some angles of pots it will widen the angle and accellerate the cue ball of the cushion. So the term inside english is preferable in my opinion. You yanks sometimes get things right!

When we say reverse side, be it reverse check or reverse running side, we are talking about the effect of screwing (drawing) back into a cushion, upon which left side bounces to the right and vice versa.

Reverse check is when the side brings the the cue ball back against the natural angle where reverse running widens the natural bounce angle.

Hope you can picture that. Do the yanks have terms for reverse check and reverse running side?

 

[ramdadingdong]

Hi Laura,
You are right on my meaning, even though I don't use the terms left(analytical) v right (unconscious/feel) brain to describe it. I think feel is adequate.

From what I know about Larry's beliefs, he holds a similar position. We may find disagreement at some point, but basically we think feel is the key, and that turning away analytical thoughts during the shot is key to obtaining more intuitive feel for the shot to be made, and of executing it with the many variables of speed, allignment, cue ball impact, grip strength, accelleration etc. It is just too much to analyse in a 1/10th of a second. It just needs to feel right.

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Here Here, tap tap, when two people agree upon everything, one of them is then un necessary. It is important to disagree on some points, that is how we learn. Mark Twain said with out disagreement you could not have a horse race. This a feel game, it must be played, by feel, IMHO...The PHD's think it should be played mechnically with them directing every thought and movement. I am on the North Pole, they on the South. One of us is right. One of us is wrong. Everyone in the golf world agrees with me, that may give you a clue who is right here.

Some feel I have some controversial teaching methods. Not me, all I know is they work and every student I get to do them loves them. I know a lot now, because I have always kept people around me who were experts on the game and knew it all. I then tried to milk their brains dry. I have had extensive and long term exchanges during the 80's and 90's with Byrne, Shamos, Schuler,
Gerni, Caras, Wright, Koehler and many others. They taught me a lot.

Before them, I truly thought I knew everything there was to know. What was so shocking to me was to find out over time, almost every thing I thought was some law of pool carved in stone, was wrong and there was a better method. I also learned some of these big names writing books write a lot of things that are not right and lead you down these wrong paths. Today I take the position that all I now know, is I now know nothing. I try out every single thing that comes along and give it a fair test. I am not cemented into any teaching position, I will change any one of them tomorrow if you show and prove to me there is a better way. My mind, is wide open.

The problem is the pool world is full of closed minds, minds who know it all like I used to be. I run into a lot of young guys who say show me this or that, I do and they go, that's not the way we do it. I go this is the way it is, they look at me strange and walk off. Most want me to tell them what they already know, to confirm that for them. When I tell them a lot of what they have is wrong, that creates a real problem.

My advice is always keep your mind open and be willing to try and endorse new ways. Never trash or poo pah anything, until you have given it a fair and complete test run. If I say you do it black and you know it to be a fact it says it's white in your pool book don't disgard my black method, go out and try it, find out for your self, which one is right. Do that and you sir will achieve the promised land of having all pool knowledge that is correct and what does work. That is the key to the bank, keep your mind open.

Best Wishes,

Fast Larry

 

[ramdadingdong]

Your points are pretty good Larry.

Though I think it is only when players are right in the zone that they can put their hand and cue down in the perfect position immediately. Often they need some warming up, or lose their feel a little and need to take a little time to make slight adjustments before they shoot.

Also, one of the points here, that I'd like you to comment on, is that even many of the top snooker players swipe slightly accross the ball, particularly when they are playing with side. They even do it on long, difficult centre ball shots as a way to make final adjustments.

It's a bit like their brain rapidly calculates that...oops, it's gonna miss, swipe left.

I know I observe this in my own game, and have had better success by just letting it happen rather than to fight against it and try to force the cue through perfectly straight. Now I am a pretty straight cueist, and have spent many hours training a straight delivery, but I feel these minor adjustment that come intuitively, are very helpfull in gaining increased accuracy if the brain is in the right mode.

Have you noticed this in your own play, or observed it in other's play?

___________________________________________________________

As I said, I do not teach this nor do I do it, but if an advanced player comes into me with this and has it working, why change something that is not broke, we just build around it and let him keep it. When in doubt, go with what you know, go with what feels right and natural. That is what I teach. No two people are the same, that is why so many people play so different from each other and still acheive the same pro perfection. There are so many ways to play this game, the books and most teachers are very rigid, you must stand this way, I go, you can stand a dozen different ways.
The other instructors say, you can't drop your elbow, I go you can't play if you do not drop your elbow. The swipe, as I said, Hoppe, the greatest cueist of all time used it, there you go again. Don Feeney who I learned a lot from discussed this at length. He was convinced this was the way, I do not. The bottom line is you can do it either way, does it really matter if you put the ball in every time.

Best Wishes,

Fast Larry Guninger
All I know, is I now know nothing...

 

[ramdadingdong]

We would just call this check side. Some guys, like my father call it check sight, cause they never read a book on it and the sound just got mistaken.

For those curious about why it is called 'check', it is because check side (inside english) often checks the speed and angle of the cue ball off the cushion. By check we mean it slows the speed and reduces the angle.

But this is not true of all shots with inside english. On some angles of pots it will widen the angle and accellerate the cue ball of the cushion. So the term inside english is preferable in my opinion. You yanks sometimes get things right!

When we say reverse side, be it reverse check or reverse running side, we are talking about the effect of screwing (drawing) back into a cushion, upon which left side bounces to the right and vice versa.

Reverse check is when the side brings the the cue ball back against the natural angle where reverse running widens the natural bounce angle.

Hope you can picture that. Do the yanks have terms for reverse check and reverse running side?

________________________________________________________________

I like your terms best for the draw and big draw, the screw and lovely deep screw. I also think pot is superior to pocket, because I am lazy and would rather type 3 letters instead of 6. He is a fine potter of the ball, he shoots a good stick. Yours and ours. In Golf, Ballard would say, he is a fine striker of the ball. Ballard was my golf teacher.
Fast Larry

 

[Razor_Blade]

Hi Mark,
It's those variable you mention that I am really after.

What variables are there?

How can be adjust for them?

How does staring at the object ball help us to do this? (Once we have set our bridge position)

Colin,

To me the biggest variables seem to be bridge length, and speed as related to distance.

For me, adjustments are as automatic as shifting a car into second gear, or tapping the brakes when you meet a Police car. To me it is just an easier, and more accurate way to aim certain shots. With practice, backhand english can become just as natural as any other aspect of ones game. I was practicing fifteen to twenty five hours a week, while becoming accustomed to using backhand english.


I don`t think staring at the ob really does anything to help us. The way I see it, when we are looking back and forth between the ob and cb, our brain is gathering the information needed to make the shot. Having intense focus on the contact point only allows the brain to do what it has been trained to do.

Mark