Why No More High Ranked US Women Pro Players?

Here is one other thing to consider. Siming when dead even with Donnie Mills. Donnie Mills is not a top level mens pro. I think most people would rate him mid to low level pro. (still would wipe the floor with most league players) So if she couldn't dominate a low to mid level male pro, who is to think she could compete with a top level mens pro? She players really good and could also beat most league players handily, but she is just not at that level IMO.
You have to be a little careful here. Granted we don't have a lot of direct information

Siming beat Donny 21 to 20 and 21 to 17 as has been mentioned.
She also played him another time and won 15 to 13
And she played two other male pros who are within 1 point of Donny (Mitch Ellerman and Daryl Peach), and she beat them 11 to 3 and 9 to 5, respectively.

Against Han Yu, we have 5 direct matchups of which Siming won 4, with a total game count of 45 to 29.

Also, Justin Bergman played Donny (753) twice at DCC and they each won once
And we have two matches between Justin and Mitch Ellerman (752) and they each won once.
And we have three matches between Justin and Tony Chohan (751) and Justin won one and Tony won two
And we have two matches between Justin and Jeremy Jones (751) and the each won one

Again, just need to be a little careful.
 
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+1. There's reasons why women can't beat men in just about any sport you care to name. I'm not being sexist here, it's just a fact.
I'm not prepared to say that a woman can never be the world's best pool player, but I'm breaking excellence into its foundational components and I see it as very difficult.

I've watched women's pro pool since the 1970s and when I look at the components of success as I've defined them, I am reminded of how tough it will be for a woman to reach the top: Here's how I see it based on the case history, although I must state in advance that I'm not as knowledgeable about some of the Asian women as I am about the American and European women.

The Break
We've definitely seen a few ladies over the years that have big breaks even by men's standards. The names that jump off the page for me in this regard are Jean Balukas, Ga Young Kim, Kelly Fisher Sarah Rousey, Helena Thornfeldt, and Tiffany Nelson, the last of which hit 29 mph on the radar gun one year at Super Billiards Expo.

Ball Pocketing
I don't think we've ever seen a woman that pocketed balls as well as top male pros, although a few have pocketed as well as middle speed pros. Of course, there's no denying that Han Yu and Siming Chen are raising the bar. The names that come to mind here are Jean Balukas, Allison Fisher, Karen Corr, Kelly Fisher, Han Yu and Siming Chen.

Position Play
In my opinion, no woman that I've ever watched played the patterns or controlled the cue ball like their male counterparts such as Buddy Hall, Ralf Souquet, Wu Jiaqing, Kim Davenport, Darren Appleton, and Jim Rempe. Only a few women ever have been rock solid position players by men's standards, with Allison Fisher, Karen Corr, Robin Dodson, Siming Chen, Han Yu and Jeanette Lee the ones that come to mind for me.

Defense
In my opinion, the only woman player that has ever played defense at the level that would be considered elite by the men is Karen Corr. Even the top men pros will vouch for this, and Karen got around to beating a lot of them, including beating then World Champion Ko PIn Yi at the US Open 9-ball. Still, the gap between the defense played at the top of the men's game and that found in women's pool is very wide. Several woman players have played defense at a level that would be considered middle level pro in men's pool, with players like Jeanette Lee, Jennifer Barretta, and Line Kjorsvik being the most obvious.

Kicking/jumping
There have been more than a few good jumpers in women's pool over the years, especially Robin Dodson. Nobody, in my opinion, kicked like the most elite men. Ga Young Kim certainly kicked at a level that would be considered middle level men's pro, and Karen Corr was also a very classy kicker.

General tactical conceptualization
Once again, Karen Corr stands alone here. She never did shoot quite as straight as Allison Fisher, but always had the edge tactically, which is why their matches always looked pretty even on paper.

In Conclusion
Give me a woman pro that breaks like Jean Balukas, pockets balls like Siming Chen, plays position like Allison Fisher, plays defense like Karen Corr, jumps like Robon Dodson, kicks like Ga Young Kim, and moves like Karen Corr, and then we've got something to discuss. History says that the emergence of such a player is at least theoretically possible, although the training of such a player would have to break the mold of anything seen to date in pool instruction.

Such a player might just contend for a world championship on the men's side. I really can imagine it, but I don't think we'll see it anytime soon.

I don't see this as a gender issue at all, but I see a long and difficult road to success for any woman who wants to be counted among the top few players in the world.
 
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I'm not prepared to say that a woman can never be the world's best pool player, but I'm breaking excellence into its foundational components and I see it as very difficult.

I've watched women's pro pool since the 1970s and when I look at the components of success as I've defined them, I am reminded of how tough it will be for a woman to reach the top: Here's how I see it based on the case history, although I must state in advance that I'm not as knowledgeable about some of the Asian women as I am about the American and European women.

The Break
We've definitely seen a few ladies over the years that have big breaks even by men's standards. The names that jump off the page for me in this regard are Jean Balukas, Ga Young Kim, Kelly Fisher Sarah Rousey, Helena Thornfeldt, and Tiffany Nelson, the last of which hit 29 mph on the radar gun one year at Super Billiards Expo.

Ball Pocketing
I don't think we've ever seen a woman that pocketed balls as well as top male pros, although a few have pocketed as well as middle speed pros. Of course, there's no denying that Han Yu and Siming Chen are raising the bar. The names that come to mind here are Jean Balukas, Allison Fisher, Karen Corr, Kelly Fisher, Han Yu and Siming Chen.

Position Play
In my opinion, no woman that I've ever watched played the patterns or controlled the cue ball like their male counterparts such as Buddy Hall, Ralf Souquet, Wu Jiaqing, Kim Davenport, Darren Appleton, and Jim Rempe. Only a few women ever have been rock solid position players by men's standards, with Allison Fisher, Karen Corr, Robin Dodson, Siming Chen, Han Yu and Jeanette Lee the ones that come to mind for me.

Defense
In my opinion, the only woman player that has ever played defense at the level that would be considered elite by the men is Karen Corr. Even the top men pros will vouch for this, and Karen got around to beating a lot of them, including beating then World Champion Ko PIn Yi at the US Open 9-ball. Still, the gap between the defense played at the top of the men's game and that found in women's pool is very wide. Several woman players have played defense at a level that would be considered middle level pro in men's pool, with players like Jeanette Lee, Jennifer Barretta, and Line Kjorsvik being the most obvious.

Kicking/jumping
There have been more than a few good jumpers in women's pool over the years, especially Robin Dodson. Nobody, in my opinion, kicked like the most elite men. Ga Young Kim certainly kicked at a level that would considered middle level men's pro, and Karen Corr was also a very classy kicker.

General tactical conceptualization
Once again, Karen Corr stands alone here. She never did shoot quite as straight as Allison Fisher, but always had the edge tactically, which is why their matches always looked pretty even on paper.

In Conclusion
Give me a woman pro that breaks like Jean Balukas, pockets balls like Siming Chen, plays position like Allison Fisher, plays defense like Karen Corr, jumps like Robon Dodson, kicks like Ga Young Kim, and moves like Karen Corr, and then we've got something to discuss. History says that the emergence of such a player is at least theoretically possible, although the training of such a player would have to break the mold of anything seen to date in pool instruction.

Such a player might just contend for a world championship on the men's side. I really can imagine it, but I don't think we'll see it anytime soon.

I don't see this as a gender issue at all, but I see a long and difficult road to success for any woman who wants to be counted among the top few players in the world.
Stu, the depth of knowledge and detail in your posts continues to blow me away.

It would have been interesting to see how much Jean would have continued to improve if she wasn’t chased off the men’s tour.

In the late 1990s I had similar thoughts about Allison, if she had chosen the path to challenge herself to compete against the men, when much like Jean, she had no real competition on the WPBA tour. No, she didn’t win every tournament, but for about a 6-7 year stretch she won as many tournaments as all the other players put together, including Karen Corr.

The break would have been the biggest obstacle for Allison competing against the men, at least before the racking templates came along.
 
You have to be a little careful here. Granted we don't have a lot of direct information

Siming beat Donny 21 to 20 and 21 to 17 as has been mentioned.
She also played him another time and won 15 to 13
And she played two other male pros who are within 1 point of Donny (Mitch Ellerman and Daryl Peach), and she beat them 11 to 3 and 9 to 5, respectively.

Against Han Yu, we have 5 direct matchups of which Siming won 4, with a total game count of 45 to 29.

Also, Justin Bergman played Donny (753) twice at DCC and they each won once
And we have two matches between Justin and Mitch Ellerman (752) and they each won once.
And we have three matches between Justin and Tony Chohan (751) and Justin won one and Tony won two
And we have two matches between Justin and Jeremy Jones (751) and the each won one

Again, just need to be a little careful.
Yes, but don't overlook that Han Yu greatly outperformed Siming at the WPA World Championships, winning three championships to Siming's one in the last seven of them. I know that a rack is a rack when it comes to Fargo, but who performs best when the stakes are highest will always mean a lot to this fan of the game. Han Yu has a pretty strong case for player of the decade in 2010-2020 on the women's side. That said, I consider them equals, and each has held the WPA World #1 ranking multiple times. We're lucky to have these two exceptional players in pool today.
 
You have to be a little careful here. Granted we don't have a lot of direct information

Siming beat Donny 21 to 20 and 21 to 17 as has been mentioned.
She also played him another time and won 15 to 13
And she played two other male pros who are within 1 point of Donny (Mitch Ellerman and Daryl Peach), and she beat them 11 to 3 and 9 to 5, respectively.

Against Han Yu, we have 5 direct matchups of which Siming won 4, with a total game count of 45 to 29.

Also, Justin Bergman played Donny (753) twice at DCC and they each won once
And we have two matches between Justin and Mitch Ellerman (752) and they each won once.
And we have three matches between Justin and Tony Chohan (751) and Justin won one and Tony won two
And we have two matches between Justin and Jeremy Jones (751) and the each won one

Again, just need to be a little careful.
Siming also hung tough with SVB when she played some sets with him. I think she lost all of them, but SVB didn't rout her. I think SVB said something along the lines that Siming was about the level of Thorpe- which is saying a lot!
 
My opinion is that Dennis, who prevailed 120-119 in his last marathon match against Shane, would wipe the floor with Siming in any long match.

With due respect for an exceptional player whom I've watched numerous times, I don't think Siming's Fargo accurately reflects her level of play. She has gone back and forth with Han Yu for the WPA #1 women's ranking in the last year or two and yet Han Yu is just a Fargo 772. In my book, they are dead even, so the twenty five point differential is very hard to fathom.

Siming had an almost dead even challenge match with Donny Mills (Fargo 752), where the sets were 21-19 and 21-20, both going to Siming but both nailbiters.

Siming's got the same Fargo as Skyler Woodward, Derby City 9-ball champ and 2-time Mosconi MVP --- does that make any sense? She'd have no chance against Skyler in a long race. Her Fargo is higher than that of Justin Bergman, but she'd never beat him in a long match, either. Skyler and Justin are two of America's three best players. Based on Fargo, SVB (omitting the retired Mike Dechaine) is the only American man who would be favored to beat Siming, but who in their right mind would believe that to be true in reality?

If the primary aspects of excellence in rotation pool are a) the break, b) ball pocketing, c) position play, d) defense, e) kicking/jumping, and f) general tactical conceptualization, I'd rate Orcullo as better than Siming in all six areas of the game. You can give her all the time you like to develop, but my opinion is that her game will never rise even close to the level at which Orcullo's sits presently.
As I said in my previous post, I recall Shane saying that Siming is on the level of Thorpe after playing several sets with her. If she truly is on his level, then it isn't absurd to think she could beat Woodward or Bergman in a long set as they aren't that much better than Thorpe. She would likely be an underdog, but not guaranteed to lose in a race to 25 or so. Also, in fairness to Siming- Woodward and Bergman have been beaten handily by Orcullo- Orcullo is a different category of player than them.
 
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As I said in my previous post, I recall Shane saying that Siming is on the level of Thorpe after playing several sets with her. If she truly is on his level, then it isn't absurd to think she could beat Woodward or Bergman in a long set as they aren't that much better than Thorpe. She would likely be an underdog, but not guaranteed to lose in a race to 25 or so. Also, in fairness to Siming- Woodward and Bergman have been beaten handily by Orcullo- Orcullo is a different category of player than them.
I have suggested that I consider Siming to be the equal of Han Yu, who is a Fargo 772. Billy Thorpe is at 774, so I have to agree that Siming vs Billy would be a good one.

That said, I'd rate both Skyler (797) and Justin (795) as heavy favorites in a long race against Billy. What makes Billy so special is his all-around talent more than his rotation pool talent. His effort at the 2020 Derby City Classic was typical of what we get from Billy ---- he was third in bank pool, first in one pocket, won the bank pool ring game, but only reached round 6 in the nine ball, meaning he finished outside the top twenty. It is in nine ball that Billy has yet to shine at the Derby, but he is every bit the equal of Justin and Skyler as an all-around player.

Finally, I agree 100% that Siming would have a chance to beat Justin or Skyler in a shorter race such as the race to 21 match she played with Donny Mills. She's a fantastic player. As you said, beating Orcullo is a rather different matter.
 
Stu, I was anticipating you would respond with your opinion / expertise on this topic, and I figured it wasn’t going to be very promising.

Hypothetically, what about if by some miracle we have a young prodigy like Jean come along again, who gets the best instruction available, who regularly practices and competes with top US male players, and who practices regularly on a brutally tough table like a 10-footer or a Chinese 8-Ball table?

Would that young player still basically have to move to Asia and compete for years against their top players to have any shot at getting their game to a Siming Chen level?
If there was such a young player, she would not be a secret.
 
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As I said in my previous post, I recall Shane saying that Siming is on the level of Thorpe after playing several sets with her. If she truly is on his level, then it isn't absurd to think she could beat Woodward or Bergman in a long set as they aren't that much better than Thorpe. She would likely be an underdog, but not guaranteed to lose in a race to 25 or so. Also, in fairness to Siming- Woodward and Bergman have been beaten handily by Orcullo- Orcullo is a different category of player than them.
There hasn't been a high ranked US women since before Alison Fisher and Karen Corr dominated every tournament for 20 years trading first and second place. Once they got old, the flame went to Asia.
Neither Fischer or Corr are American. They came here to dominate our tour.
 
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