Why Pool is devastated by the new Smoking Laws.

[Paul Schofield]

You cannot smoke in a POKER rooms, or any poker tournament I've ever played in

I did not say that you could. That is not what I was talking about.

Most poker is played sitting in front of a computor in the comfort of your own home or in some private, friendly, non-raked game where you can smoke to your hearts content.

You think that everyone is as enthused about pool as much as you are. A room owner knows that you are a very small minority. More likely than not, you are going to the poolroom anyway, smoking or no smoking. In my business, more than 85% are out for a night of fun and could care less about pool. They can take it or leave it. It takes very little to deter them. The lure of other "smokable" activities is just enough to make them forget about pool. They don't need pool.

 

[KRJ]

I did not say that you could. That is not what I was talking about.

Most poker is played sitting in front of a computor in the comfort of your own home or in some private, friendly, non-raked game where you can smoke to your hearts content.

You think that everyone is as enthused about pool as much as you are. A room owner knows that you are a very small minority. More likely than not, you are going to the poolroom anyway, smoking or no smoking. In my business, more than 85% are out for a night of fun and could care less about pool. They can take it or leave it. It takes very little to deter them. The lure of other "smokable" activities is just enough to make them forget about pool. They don't need pool.

Well, the world needs ditch diggers too

 

[Banks]

I did not say that you could. That is not what I was talking about.

Most poker is played sitting in front of a computor in the comfort of your own home or in some private, friendly, non-raked game where you can smoke to your hearts content.

Did you duck or did Fatboy's comment really go over your head?

Paul, you're a good guy, but you've got your blinders on for this topic.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Did you duck or did Fatboy's comment really go over your head?

Paul, you're a good guy, but you've got your blinders on for this topic.

I think he is close but it does not tell the whole story. I did answer him in post #454. What all the pool players don't understand is that a pool room's revenue is largely generated by people who care very little about the game or whether they play or not. Tell this group that they can't smoke when they play and they will just find another recreation where they can smoke. Fatboy mentioned activities that they can do and smoke at the same time. The smoking ban made the choices easy for this group. This was the biggest difference.

I find this interesting. Every room owner that has posted on this thread and every room owner that I know has discussed how the ban hurt business. Everyone else believes that the room owners are just looking for a scape-goat.

I am waiting and wanting for a room owner to say that they came through the transition with flying colors and an increase in business and tell everyone how they did it.

 

[Spider1]

Also, who is the health department to tell restaurants they can't serve food however they want. Why should the restaurant have to follow rules that ensure the safe digestion of their food?

Ever notice the little signs/stickers on menus offering seafood or steaks saying "UNDERCOOKED MEAT OR SEAFOOD CAN BE A HEALTH RISK AND BLAH BLAH BLAH"? That's because there IS a health risk to serving rare steak/hamburgers, or raw oysters, but as long as you are properly warned you are assuming the risk yourself by ordering it.

Give bars or other over 21 establishments the opportunity to install big "WARNING SMOKING INSIDE HERE, YOU COULD DIE OF CANCER BLAH BLAH BLAH" signs if they want to allow smoking. Business owner is allowed to run their business how they want, customers have a well-informed choice of entering or not..bingo, everyone is happy.

But wait, everyone's not happy. Because some people are so childishly selfish that things must be their way everywhere, and everyone must bow to their personal preferences...choice, or rights be damned. This mindset is exactly why our society is getting so completely f*cked up today. No one believes in "live and let live", instead it's "my way or else".


These exact same dumb comparisons (restaurant food inspections, drunk drivers on the highway) have been put forth and shot down numerous times in this thread. It's like a 30 page broken record. At it's core it is a lot of desperate (and illogical) excuse-making for people who are uncomfortable when their Fascist beliefs are pointed out for what they are.

Most hilarious, these people don't realize that others with their same controlling mindset are hell-bent on banning bars or serving alcohol in public, and won't rest until it comes to pass. MADD has gone quite far in that direction in the last 10 years, and has acquired quite a bit of political clout to boot. And of course all the demonization of serving alcohol in bars or clubs is done in the name of "public safety" and "think of the children!" Sounds familiar, doesn't it? You can almost hear the gasps of hypocrites saying "but...but...that's different!"

That's the whole problem with totalitarian thinking and beliefs: One day it's some other group or icky activity you don't like...then suddenly it's you being dealt with harshly or having your rights infringed.

No one will ever learn anything from these threads or discussions though.

 

[OneIron]

But wait, everyone's not happy. Because some people are so childishly selfish that things must be their way everywhere, and everyone must bow to their personal preferences...choice, or rights be damned. This mindset is exactly why our society is getting so completely f*cked up today. No one believes in "live and let live", instead it's "my way or else".

I think you may have hit on something here. You're describing the smokers who refuse to walk outside to smoke.

 

[chefjeff]

()snip the good stuff)

No one will ever learn anything from these threads or discussions though.

I disagree with this. I REALLY disagree with this.

In all my years of taking on the state, I can honestly say that these threads and discussions are the most powerful communication methods I've seen and used. Some here command me to go to political forums, but those forums are mostly good for learning, not convincing. Folks who go to those go to learn more. If they go to convince others, they're peeing in the wind. Most there are on the same page already.

Now, forums like AZ are perfect for transferring that learned knowledge to others. This is because there is common ground to start with (at AZ, pool). This allows many common issues to integrate politics with, not just having a discussion of politics, per se. This thread is but one example and you provided a brilliant essay on this particular issue. That would not be known if you did it just on a political board and you wouldn't have bothered to do it there. But when it is integrated with pool, the example hits home, so to speak.

Multiply this power by other forums similar to AZ (horseshoe, darts, mumbletypeg, chess, fastener and screw manufacturers, light bulb designers, woodworkers, bowlers, etc etc,,,tens of thousands of 'em) and you've got real change goin' on worldwide. Real change (not political mumbo jumbo) happens one mind at a time.

Jeff Livingston

 

[OneIron]

I disagree with this. I REALLY disagree with this.

In all my years of taking on the state, I can honestly say that these threads and discussions are the most powerful communication methods I've seen and used. Some here command me to go to political forums, but those forums are mostly good for learning, not convincing. Folks who go to those go to learn more. If they go to convince others, they're peeing in the wind. Most there are on the same page already.

Now, forums like AZ are perfect for transferring that learned knowledge to others. This is because there is common ground to start with (at AZ, pool). This allows many common issues to integrate politics with, not just having a discussion of politics, per se. This thread is but one example and you provided a brilliant essay on this particular issue. That would not be known if you did it just on a political board and you wouldn't have bothered to do it there. But when it is integrated with pool, the example hits home, so to speak.

Multiply this power by other forums similar to AZ (horseshoe, darts, mumbletypeg, chess, fastener and screw manufacturers, light bulb designers, woodworkers, bowlers, etc etc,,,tens of thousands of 'em) and you've got real change goin' on worldwide. Real change (not political mumbo jumbo) happens one mind at a time.

Jeff Livingston

Well said, Jeff. :thumbup:

 

[Spider1]

I think you may have hit on something here. You're describing the smokers who refuse to walk outside to smoke.

Yes, because you're simply incapable of going to another place that has an atmosphere (cough cough) more to your liking.

Thanks for posting such a textbook reply of the exact mindset I was talking about.

 

[OneIron]

Yes, because you're simply incapable of going to another place that has an atmosphere (cough cough) more to your liking.

Thanks for posting such a textbook reply of the exact mindset I was talking about.

Good point. I should drive 20 miles to a non smoking room because a smoker refuses to walk 20 feet to smoke outside? This is the very reason that smoking bans will eventually succeed.

Being a Libertarian, I fully support the rights of people to do most anything that doesn't infringe on the rights of other people. That includes drug legalization. But I can't for the life of me understand why smokers can't have the common courtesy to smoke outside.

Quite frankly, the smokers are their own worst enemy in this case.

 

[chefjeff]

Good point. I should drive 20 miles to a non smoking room because a smoker refuses to walk 20 feet to smoke outside? This is the very reason that smoking bans will eventually succeed.

Being a Libertarian, I fully support the rights of people to do most anything that doesn't infringe on the rights of other people. That includes drug legalization. But I can't for the life of me understand why smokers can't have the common courtesy to smoke outside.

Quite frankly, the smokers are their own worst enemy in this case.

It's because the guy WHO OWNS THE SPACE INSIDE is Ok with it. It's HIS property so HE calls the shots. Those who can live with that, go there; those who don't, go elsewhere. That's freedom of choice.

When property is controlled by politicians, smokers must go out into the public space and pollute that. I'd rather have the choice to (not) go inside a smoking establishment than have to endure smoke while I'm in a public space. If it's the govt's job to protect the public, wouldn't doing that in a public place be THE spot to actually do that? But nooooo, they drive smokers into the public where there is no choice but to endure it.

Sense?

 

[Spider1]

I disagree with this. I REALLY disagree with this.

In all my years of taking on the state, I can honestly say that these threads and discussions are the most powerful communication methods I've seen and used. Some here command me to go to political forums, but those forums are mostly good for learning, not convincing. Folks who go to those go to learn more. If they go to convince others, they're peeing in the wind. Most there are on the same page already.

Now, forums like AZ are perfect for transferring that learned knowledge to others. This is because there is common ground to start with (at AZ, pool). This allows many common issues to integrate politics with, not just having a discussion of politics, per se. This thread is but one example and you provided a brilliant essay on this particular issue. That would not be known if you did it just on a political board and you wouldn't have bothered to do it there. But when it is integrated with pool, the example hits home, so to speak.

Multiply this power by other forums similar to AZ (horseshoe, darts, mumbletypeg, chess, fastener and screw manufacturers, light bulb designers, woodworkers, bowlers, etc etc,,,tens of thousands of 'em) and you've got real change goin' on worldwide. Real change (not political mumbo jumbo) happens one mind at a time.

Jeff Livingston

Jeff, I can appreciate your opinion here, and while I want to agree with you, I'm just not that optimistic.

From my observations, most people just want to feel good about themselves. Logic or rationality get thrown completely out the window in a desperate need to think of themselves as a "good guy", or even just "not a bad person". Even if they are doing or advocating something reprehensible, if someone points it out, or questions their activities/beliefs, instead of scrutinizing their actions/beliefs, they will rush to blindly defend or ignore their actions/beliefs. No matter what, logic/rationality be damned.

Again, even the most reprehensible activities (murderers, rapists) or belief systems (totalitarianists, fascists, hate-mongers, etc) will be defended by most people practicing them because to stand back and recognize these behaviors/mindsets for what they are invites introspection and maybe a dawning realization or undercurrent that these activities/beliefs are not what "good people" do/think, and maybe the person practicing them might just not be a 'good guy' after all. And that scares the crap out of most people. Instead of recognizing it and maybe thinking about overcoming that and growing as a person, they'd rather shrilly deny it or ignore it in a stream of excuses, "it's someone else's fault" etc etc. You can see it every day, from people convicted of crimes, even down to people in this thread 25 pages ago who reacted with appalled shock when their totalitarian belief systems get pointed out for what they are.

And did anyone learn anything? Absolutely not. Because people don't want to hear that at heart, they are acting/voicing the same good little brownshirt philosophies the Nazis spouted in 1938 or Stalin was enforcing with an iron fist for a few decades. Because..."hey not me, I'm not a bad guy!" Logic, legal history, choice, blah blah blah, it means nothing to them. Cue the broken record for another 25 pages. I think that about sums up the "discussion" you can have about most logical issues, on the internet or otherwise.

First time I have logged in since june or so, and I just had to waste my time responding to the same tired arguments from 30 pages ago that got posted for the umpteenth time, and now here I've gone off-topic. But you know how it is, we're all creatures of habit, right? Anyways, it was nice to read your post! While we may not agree on everything, I always have a good deal of respect for your logic and thinking abilities, and look forward to reading your thoughts. Have a good one, and I'll go back to lurking now.

 

[nobcitypool]

Jeff, I can appreciate your opinion here, and while I want to agree with you, I'm just not that optimistic.

From my observations, most people just want to feel good about themselves. Logic or rationality get thrown completely out the window in a desperate need to think of themselves as a "good guy", or even just "not a bad person". Even if they are doing or advocating something reprehensible, if someone points it out, or questions their activities/beliefs, instead of scrutinizing their actions/beliefs, they will rush to blindly defend or ignore their actions/beliefs. No matter what, logic/rationality be damned.

Again, even the most reprehensible activities (murderers, rapists) or belief systems (totalitarianists, fascists, hate-mongers, etc) will be defended by most people practicing them because to stand back and recognize these behaviors/mindsets for what they are invites introspection and maybe a dawning realization or undercurrent that these activities/beliefs are not what "good people" do/think, and maybe the person practicing them might just not be a 'good guy' after all. And that scares the crap out of most people. Instead of recognizing it and maybe thinking about overcoming that and growing as a person, they'd rather shrilly deny it or ignore it in a stream of excuses, "it's someone else's fault" etc etc. You can see it every day, from people convicted of crimes, even down to people in this thread 25 pages ago who reacted with appalled shock when their totalitarian belief systems get pointed out for what they are.

And did anyone learn anything? Absolutely not. Because people don't want to hear that at heart, they are acting/voicing the same good little brownshirt philosophies the Nazis spouted in 1938 or Stalin was enforcing with an iron fist for a few decades. Because..."hey not me, I'm not a bad guy!" Logic, legal history, choice, blah blah blah, it means nothing to them. Cue the broken record for another 25 pages. I think that about sums up the "discussion" you can have about most logical issues, on the internet or otherwise.

First time I have logged in since june or so, and I just had to waste my time responding to the same tired arguments from 30 pages ago that got posted for the umpteenth time, and now here I've gone off-topic. But you know how it is, we're all creatures of habit, right? Anyways, it was nice to read your post! While we may not agree on everything, I always have a good deal of respect for your logic and thinking abilities, and look forward to reading your thoughts. Have a good one, and I'll go back to lurking now.

Let's see if I understand this. You compare murder and rape to smoking and expect that analogy to work because you connect a bunch of big words to it? Really? Murder and rape aren't legal. You can't do that in your home, much less in public. You are right, you did waste your time if that is your "logical" contribution to the conversation.

 

[chefjeff]

Jeff, I can appreciate your opinion here, and while I want to agree with you, I'm just not that optimistic.

From my observations, most people just want to feel good about themselves. Logic or rationality get thrown completely out the window in a desperate need to think of themselves as a "good guy", or even just "not a bad person". Even if they are doing or advocating something reprehensible, if someone points it out, or questions their activities/beliefs, instead of scrutinizing their actions/beliefs, they will rush to blindly defend or ignore their actions/beliefs. No matter what, logic/rationality be damned.

Again, even the most reprehensible activities (murderers, rapists) or belief systems (totalitarianists, fascists, hate-mongers, etc) will be defended by most people practicing them because to stand back and recognize these behaviors/mindsets for what they are invites introspection and maybe a dawning realization or undercurrent that these activities/beliefs are not what "good people" do/think, and maybe the person practicing them might just not be a 'good guy' after all. And that scares the crap out of most people. Instead of recognizing it and maybe thinking about overcoming that and growing as a person, they'd rather shrilly deny it or ignore it in a stream of excuses, "it's someone else's fault" etc etc. You can see it every day, from people convicted of crimes, even down to people in this thread 25 pages ago who reacted with appalled shock when their totalitarian belief systems get pointed out for what they are.

And did anyone learn anything? Absolutely not. Because people don't want to hear that at heart, they are acting/voicing the same good little brownshirt philosophies the Nazis spouted in 1938 or Stalin was enforcing with an iron fist for a few decades. Because..."hey not me, I'm not a bad guy!" Logic, legal history, choice, blah blah blah, it means nothing to them. Cue the broken record for another 25 pages. I think that about sums up the "discussion" you can have about most logical issues, on the internet or otherwise.

First time I have logged in since june or so, and I just had to waste my time responding to the same tired arguments from 30 pages ago that got posted for the umpteenth time, and now here I've gone off-topic. But you know how it is, we're all creatures of habit, right? Anyways, it was nice to read your post! While we may not agree on everything, I always have a good deal of respect for your logic and thinking abilities, and look forward to reading your thoughts. Have a good one, and I'll go back to lurking now.

In my business I attend many meetings. One of the things that seems to happen at every meeting is a distributor complaining that "no one wants to buy what we sell." That's their thinking, anyway, but someone DOES buy what we sell or else the company wouldn't have existed for over 50 years.

It's easy to think that 'no one cares,' but SOME do. That's all that's needed. One Person convincing everyone isn't possible and having that as a goal is self-defeating. One mind at a time is the ONLY way to spread a meme, an idea. Then there are two minds to spread it. Then four, then...... Sure it seems like everyone suddenly "gets it" at the same time when it finally spreads worldwide, but in reality, the meme was propagating and spreading at a greater and greater rate the whole time. Think of compound interest....save a a few bucks each month and the pot seems so small that one thinks it will never amount to much so why continue with it, and then suddenly it compounds into real money almost overnight.

The big picture exist even for those who don't yet see it.

Jeff Livingston

 

[Spider1]

Let's see if I understand this. You compare murder and rape to smoking and expect that analogy to work because you connect a bunch of big words to it? Really? Murder and rape aren't legal. You can't do that in your home, much less in public. You are right, you did waste your time if that is your "logical" contribution to the conversation.

Read what I said over again.

Nowhere did I say that murder and rape are the same as smoking. What I said was that the defensive mindset is the same when behavior/belief systems get pointed out for what they are.

Many murderers don't consider themselves "bad people". They claim they had no choice, the victim instigated it, etc etc. And that same blind defensiveness goes right on into people who advocate horrific ideas/beliefs like hate-mongering or racism. They aren't 'bad people' for thinking those ideas, they are just "realists", or reacting to the groups they hate ("they instigated it!" again). And yes, it's the same exact mindset that has people in this very thread spouting totalitarian ideas and personal right infringements that would make guys like Hitler, Stalin, and Chairman Mao proud, and then trying to defend it. "But...but...not me! I'm a nice person!" and cue the excuses, appeals to emotion, blind anger, etc etc.


It helps to give something a chance, read it closely, and try to understand the writer's intent before responding to it in indignation or anger. But again, that's why Jeff and I disagree about the usefulness of discussion threads like these: He thinks people learn from them, and unfortunately, I just see posts like yours over and over.

Regardless, it's not worth getting upset over meaningless arguments on the internet, and I'm sorry if my post was a "waste of time" for you. Hope you are having a good labor day and enjoy your afternoon. :smile:

 

[chefjeff]

(snip the self defense)

Regardless, it's not worth getting upset over meaningless arguments on the internet, and I'm sorry if my post was a "waste of time" for you. Hope you are having a good labor day and enjoy your afternoon. :smile:

Yeah, HE might have wasted his time, but he isn't the only one reading this. There's another sales concept that applies here: Belief in a message is greater if overheard than if one is spoken to directly. I use the example of being in a restaurant and overhearing a couple in the next booth talking about something. It's more likely that I believe those words moreso than if they were talking directly to me. I suspect that it is because I realize that it isn't me who is directly being sold the ideas.

That eavesdropping technique is the main one done online, btw. In case you hadn't noticed, I use it all the time. I rarely make a post thinking that I'm going to convince the one I'm responding to. I write most of my posts for the lurkers to read as part of the drama of the arguments going on. Yeah, I try my best to logically refute the quoted arguments, but I do it in a way that allows the lurkers breathing room, room for growth in THEIR thinking regardless of how the thread is going or who is "winning."

I hope that makes sense.

Jeff Livingston

 

[Hungarian]

MGT of America was commissioned to carry out a study of the economic impact of the smoking ordinance on restaurant sales and mixed beverage sales in Houston, TX.

Their conclusion was that the smoking ordinances did not appear to carry adverse outcomes for the restaurant and drinking establishment sector in aggregate.

Obviously this was not a study on pool halls.


http://www.houstontx.gov/health/Houston Smoking 2nd Update.pdf

 

[Hungarian]

That's some advanced sh!t.. Do you offer lessons..?

Yeah, HE might have wasted his time, but he isn't the only one reading this. There's another sales concept that applies here: Belief in a message is greater if overheard than if one is spoken to directly. I use the example of being in a restaurant and overhearing a couple in the next booth talking about something. It's more likely that I believe those words moreso than if they were talking directly to me. I suspect that it is because I realize that it isn't me who is directly being sold the ideas.

That eavesdropping technique is the main one done online, btw. In case you hadn't noticed, I use it all the time. I rarely make a post thinking that I'm going to convince the one I'm responding to. I write most of my posts for the lurkers to read as part of the drama of the arguments going on. Yeah, I try my best to logically refute the quoted arguments, but I do it in a way that allows the lurkers breathing room, room for growth in THEIR thinking regardless of how the thread is going or who is "winning."

I hope that makes sense.

Jeff Livingston

 

[nobcitypool]

Read what I said over again.

Nowhere did I say that murder and rape are the same as smoking. What I said was that the defensive mindset is the same when behavior/belief systems get pointed out for what they are.

Many murderers don't consider themselves "bad people". They claim they had no choice, the victim instigated it, etc etc. And that same blind defensiveness goes right on into people who advocate horrific ideas/beliefs like hate-mongering or racism. They aren't 'bad people' for thinking those ideas, they are just "realists", or reacting to the groups they hate ("they instigated it!" again). And yes, it's the same exact mindset that has people in this very thread spouting totalitarian ideas and personal right infringements that would make guys like Hitler, Stalin, and Chairman Mao proud, and then trying to defend it. "But...but...not me! I'm a nice person!" and cue the excuses, appeals to emotion, blind anger, etc etc.


It helps to give something a chance, read it closely, and try to understand the writer's intent before responding to it in indignation or anger. But again, that's why Jeff and I disagree about the usefulness of discussion threads like these: He thinks people learn from them, and unfortunately, I just see posts like yours over and over.

Regardless, it's not worth getting upset over meaningless arguments on the internet, and I'm sorry if my post was a "waste of time" for you. Hope you are having a good labor day and enjoy your afternoon. :smile:

You think I was upset? LMAO! Wow, this from the guy whose avatar says bite me? You consider property owner's rights "blind defensiveness" and compare that to "feelings" or emotions akin to those who defend rapists and murderers.

What our Government is doing with OUR country in no way resembles the intent of the Founders of our country. Go back, read some history, read the writings of Thomas Jefferson. Reading your posts does in fact make me believe you could have been a speech writer for Lenin, Castro and many other Communist or Socialist dictators.

 

[chefjeff]

You think I was upset? LMAO! Wow, this from the guy whose avatar says bite me? You consider property owner's rights "blind defensiveness" and compare that to "feelings" or emotions akin to those who defend rapists and murderers.

What our Government is doing with OUR country in no way resembles the intent of the Founders of our country. Go back, read some history, read the writings of Thomas Jefferson. Reading your posts does in fact make me believe you could have been a speech writer for Lenin, Castro and many other Communist or Socialist dictators.

Spider, this is a perfect time to try out my techniques.

Perfect!

Jeff Livington