Why some people will remain C/D players forever.

[KRJ]

• Bad attitude / mindset. *****es about everything, gets down easily, calls everything
a bad roll even when it's nothing to do with luck, blames the cue, the cue ball,
the rules, the opponent gets so lucky, etc. It seems like these are also the guys
I see rushing all the time, which is another mental issue, it's like they're worried
that they can't make a ball unless they let their subconscious take over by shooting fast.

Out practicing a few Sundays ago at our room. Another guy, lets call him a marginal player at best, though he really believes he's much better then he is.

Playing another guy for practice, and the guy had an 8B a few inches off the short rail about 1 1/4 diamonds from the long rail. Might have been able to bank it straight back had it not been blocked by one of my balls.

Well, this guy tells him to bank it in the side. That's what he'd do he says !!

I told it won't go in the side, just not possible. He says he makes them ALL the time.

Of course the guy plays safe cause he's not sure what to do. After the game I put the ball back and said, here bank away. He missed. He said he hit it too thin ??

I put it back and said shoot it straight in. I mean, no cue ball. Just stand behind the 8ball and shoot it into the side pocket. He laughed, like of course he could do it. I told him he could NOT masse it in. He missed.

I told him it won't fit at that angle, and the only way you could have made it was if the table had a roll in it, you knew it, and played for the roll. At a certain angle, the ball just won't go into the side pocket no matter if you want it to go, or it looks like it will go, at a certain angle it's just physically impossible without a bad table.

He walked away saying he made that shot before

 

[Straightpool_99]

The main things I notice are

• Not really interested in improving, any skill they picked up is accidental, via repetition,
and that's their gameplan forever. Not gonna pick up a book, visit a website, or listen
to more than 30 seconds worth of instruction.

• Afraid to try new things... e.g. they get used to hitting a certain shot with low outside,
terrified to try it with high inside because they know they'll miss.
They won't risk losing or even missing one ball, for the sake of self-improvement.

• Fundamentally not smart... they don't get basic physics. I don't mean formulas and stuff,
I just mean simple concepts like... hitting a ball extra hard won't make it teleport through another ball, if the pocket is barely blocked.

• Can't admit their own shortcomings or take advice. Sometimes this gets really irrational.
A classic beginner scene: A guy misses a ball by 3 inches, never even hits the nipple.
"ah crap... Too hard." ...Well, no, you missed shot, nothing to do with speed.
For some weird reason, they cannot admit missing by aiming wrong, or bad stroke.
They can only admit to "I hit it too hard", implying they did everything right but the
stupid ball/table wouldn't cooperate at their chosen speed.

• Bad attitude / mindset. *****es about everything, gets down easily, calls everything
a bad roll even when it's nothing to do with luck, blames the cue, the cue ball,
the rules, the opponent gets so lucky, etc. It seems like these are also the guys
I see rushing all the time, which is another mental issue, it's like they're worried
that they can't make a ball unless they let their subconscious take over by shooting fast.

All of these things will hold you back, for sure. Good post.

 

[7forlife]

i think that most c/d players get struck because of poor fundamentals
due to no training/instruction and no practice

This is it right here plan and simple. I think what the OP mentioned (in that long thing) is a person who is at a lower level, those are all traits of someone who just "doesn't know" and some one who improves knows plan and simple.

Any person stuck at a level have the same common road blocks.
proper coaching
lack of time to practice
ambition
(I left out the C/D player until now because other mentioned the fun/serious fact)
but the biggest real problem that i see with all these players is that they feel they are better than they really are, and this is a mental issue that needs to be address far more seriously that other points IMO

everyone wants to get better but no one wants to put in the work

 

[bad_hit]

I remained stuck at a C level for some time, until I figured out these pieces of the puzzle, one by one, and I don't think I could have progressed without knowing WHY it was that I was inconsistent. I don't think table time alone could have gotten me further at that point. What I learned was this.

1. Pick an aim, tip placement and speed while standing up. Vividly visualize the stroke and the outcome.
2. While down on the ball I purify my tip position first, then the aim. I forget the tip position while stroking the last stroke, only concentrating on the aim and speed.
3. I try never to look at the pocket while down over the ball.
4. I try to hit every shot with the same, pure stroke, no matter what the difficulty is. If I feel any sort of tension in the arm, or an urge to get up off the shot, I stand back up. I focus more on the stroke itself, not the outcome. By doing that the outcome is always better. I still miss some tough shots, but at least I give myself the chance to pull the shot off.
5. The stroke is not over until the cue is fully extended and is resting on, or above the table. It is not "allowed" to look at the object ball until this part is completed. If I'm struggling I extend this pause even longer.

Naturally some people do not prioritize pool, and do not get enough time to practice etc..The people I talk about are pool hall regulars who should be better, but somehow aren't.

Great post.

I can relate. I fancied myself as a good player until pretty recently. I've read books, watched videos, practiced a billion hours, etc, etc. I had won nearly every weekly tournament in town and I beat the majority of people I played for years. I'm good, right? Nope! I started taking lessons and realized I stink!! I've been playing the game wrong the whole damn time and winning DESPITE knowing what I was doing, not because of it. The problem is that you can beat people with bad fundamentals and stroke by just having a little knowledge and some decent shot making. But that's because they stink too!!

A big problem with this game is that hardly anyone learns it correctly and we all give each other bad advice. Professional instruction by people who actually know what they're taking about is rare. Even with the right attitude, desire, etc...getting better is HARD because good instruction is hard to find, and basic things like you just laid out aren't obvious. Unless your super talented, this game takes years and years just to get to square 1. Kudos for working hard enough to realize these things.

 

[Banks]

Great post.

I can relate. I fancied myself as a good player until pretty recently. I've read books, watched videos, practiced a billion hours, etc, etc. I had won nearly every weekly tournament in town and I beat the majority of people I played for years. I'm good, right? Nope! I started taking lessons and realized I stink!! I've been playing the game wrong the whole damn time and winning DESPITE knowing what I was doing, not because of it. The problem is that you can beat people with bad fundamentals and stroke by just having a little knowledge and some decent shot making. But that's because they stink too!!

A big problem with this game is that hardly anyone learns it correctly and we all give each other bad advice. Professional instruction by people who actually know what they're taking about is rare. Even with the right attitude, desire, etc...getting better is HARD because good instruction is hard to find, and basic things like you just laid out aren't obvious. Unless your super talented, this game takes years and years just to get to square 1. Kudos for working hard enough to realize these things.

If you're interested, i give lessons, too.

In no particular order, you can choose from:
Jumping up on the shot
Lazy stroke
Chicken wing
Scratching on the break
Not getting down on the shot
Getting rid of a preshot routine
Improper equipment

 

[efirkey]

Why do you have to get better? Why can't you just be average and enjoy playing with your peers? I am an "A" player and I would have a lot more people to play with if I was a strong C player. As a top "A" player it is hard to find a game at least in my area.

 

[7forlife]

Why do you have to get better? Why can't you just be average and enjoy playing with your peers? I am an "A" player and I would have a lot more people to play with if I was a strong C player. As a top "A" player it is hard to find a game at least in my area.

No one said that you have to get better and the reasons why people don't have been covered.

 

[Zphix]

Regarding C/D level players I think it comes down to a lot of things; my initial thought is that they don't want to put the time in (i.e. laziness) and while that's certainly a piece of the puzzle, it isn't all of it.

- Lack of knowledge on what to practice: Honestly, I have to thank AZB in this regard because I picked up so much information from so many people that I was able to use actively. Basic things like tangent line, 30 degree rule, on to more complex things covered by Dr. Dave and many others.

- Lack of confidence: This is a huge one. I see a lot of players who want to improve but they don't see a clear path to get to be a AA or Master and so they don't take a step at all. It takes a lot of confidence to dive head first into something without knowing the end result.

- Fundamentals: Another huge one. My sister is a great example of this; she's an APA 2 who's been playing for 2 years. Her arm is straight as an arrow when she's stroking but her feet cause her entire body to wobble so she almost always misses shots she's lined up to make. It's really a matter of her moving her back foot about 12 inches to the right and she'd be much more solid. But, she's unwilling to make the change because it's "uncomfortable." Beginner's rely far too much on what feels natural and comfortable which in pool usually results in bad body mechanics.

- Mental Game: THE BIGGEST SETBACK I HAD was with my mental game. I'm still guilty of this, not as bad but still guilty, of thinking "I'm better than I actually am." It's harder to seek improvement when you don't think you need to. Thankfully, I have a blunt @$$hole to thank for getting that into my head. Beyond that, I see a lot of player's crumble when they don't perform up to snuff with the idea of how good they think they are and it crushes their motivation most of the time.

-Richard

 

[sixpack]

It's a weird phenomenon. I have lived in quite a few places and even after not playing much for the last 10 years if I go back to a place I used to live - for the most part I fit right into the hierarchy as when I left. Many of the players who I used to beat I still beat, even though they've kept playing all the time and I haven't played much in a decade.

There are exceptions. I lived in Denver in the 90s and it was great time and place for pool. There was a big group of us coming up at the same time and Terry McFadden, Lief Jensen and Alex Johnson - along with others - created an organization called the Colorado Billiard Association. It was great because there were always tournaments and the handicaps were pretty good. And they allowed up to AAA+ players in a lot of tournaments so we were always seeing great players play and competing against them. We all were really competitive with each other and that drove us all to be better. And a lot of those guys that I used to play even with now play great and have continued to get better - and I have definitely lost a step on them now.

But the perennial c/d players - they just complained about the handicap system, complained about all the 'young guns' who grew up with pool tables at home etc...Even though none of us did. Well, they still can't beat me. They don't play a lick better than they did 20 years ago.

I guess they just looked everywhere but the mirror for reasons why they lost. And if you don't look in the mirror and find ways to improve yourself, you're not going to improve.

As far as fundamentals, very few of us had lessons. I think we were almost all self-taught. But if you're trying to improve, you figure out that a straight stroke and consistent aiming setup cuts down on misses a lot. Figuring out patterns is something else that you'll eventually figure out you better think through. Etc...

So my answer - is that the players that stay C/D ability stay there because they really don't care about getting better or aren't really exposed to better players in an organized way. Either they are already the best in their bar/friends etc... or they just like to have a few drinks and pass an evening. Or they already think they know it all and their ego won't let them look in the mirror or seek outside help. These players occasionally travel to a 'big' tournament and have a bad outing - usually got every unlucky roll and a bad draw and played bad etc...

 

[Zphix]

So my answer - is that the players that stay C/D ability stay there because they really don't care about getting better or aren't really exposed to better players in an organized way. Either they are already the best in their bar/friends etc... or they just like to have a few drinks and pass an evening. Or they already think they know it all and their ego won't let them look in the mirror or seek outside help. These players occasionally travel to a 'big' tournament and have a bad outing - usually got every unlucky roll and a bad draw and played bad etc...

I posted this in another thread a while back, but, it also has to do with how players think about things after being exposed to great players.

You either think:

1) One day I'll be better than him/her.

2) I can never hope to be that good.

3) He just got lucky.

Most players that actively seek to improve fall into the number 1 category; I certainly am motivated to grown, learn, and develop into a player that can beat the monsters I know. Some of them on the top 100 Fargo (U.S.)

Anyway, it's not just being exposed to better players, it's being exposed and finding it in yourself to say "I'll beat you one day."

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

For starters, I think it's very hard to learn how not to miss when you're playing people that miss. I know, it sounds obvious but if you're a C/D player looking to improve, you need to treat 8ball, 9ball, and 10ball as one inning games. If your everyday opponents are routinely giving you 3 or 4 turns at the table, you're not going to force yourself to improve and if you want to be an A player, that means not missing.

Now, there are plenty of reasons why we miss. Maybe our aiming method is flawed. Maybe our cue is crooked. Maybe we make bad decisions. It's important you look at everything and begin asking the question, is there room for improvement? But, you need to feel motivated to ask that question to begin with.

Personally, I think most people who have been C/D for an extended time have given-up. They believe they're doing everything right and they're still missing therefore, the elusive "talent" isn't in them but they love the game anyway so they march on. They stopped looking for ways to improve their pocketing and instead, seek to improve their decisions.


So, if you're a C/D player looking to get better, I offer this advice. Play better people a lot. Like, all the time. Make it worth it, too. Take some cash to the poolroom, find a guy that's better than you and make a game. If he's really good, offer to play him even-up for cheap. Not a lot of guys will turn away free money. And, I can assure you, keep this up for a few months and you'll start to make some of that money back. But, you have to realize a few things. For one, there's no magic in this game, no hidden great talent. I mean, maybe the very best have it but that shortstop in your poolroom probably has nothing over you in terms of raw DNA. He's playing with the same tools you're playing with so why does he not miss? Keep asking yourself that and you'll find the answer.

 

[SlashingAxe]

A great read especially since I'm probably a D- player not sure how the ranking works exactly but I have a lot of room for improvement. Most people I knew that were once at my level are in the same level they just play games and never try to improve thinking if they just play more and more games they'll get better. Meanwhile I'm trying to absorb as much as I can and have now surpassed most the people I started playing with and its a great feeling hopefully others looking to improve read this thread.