Just throwing it out there.
Players, cuemakers, and theorists opinions welcomed. :smile:
Players, cuemakers, and theorists opinions welcomed. :smile:
Why would it be easier to draw with one cue over the other?
- Thread starter Impact Blue
- Start date
I think the most critical factor is the tip, think draw with a well shaped elk master vs draw with a flat phenolic break tip. Other factors might include balance and weight, taper, length, etc. but the tip is probably what it comes down to most of the time. Of course above even the tip is the player him(her)self. It doesnt matter what cue you are using, without a stroke you wont be able to draw effectively.
Construction of the cue.
I had a pool/carom hybrid that I could do some wicked shots with. Especially the one where the cueball makes a ball in teh corner and then doubles the rail all the way down the table to make another ball in the corner.
I can't make this shot with any pool cue.
OF course a cue that allows you to do more also is harder to control. But to run down a short list for you, weight, taper, wood, tip, ferrule, and construction are all factors in why you could draw more with one cue than another.
I had a pool/carom hybrid that I could do some wicked shots with. Especially the one where the cueball makes a ball in teh corner and then doubles the rail all the way down the table to make another ball in the corner.
I can't make this shot with any pool cue.
OF course a cue that allows you to do more also is harder to control. But to run down a short list for you, weight, taper, wood, tip, ferrule, and construction are all factors in why you could draw more with one cue than another.
i know this will make everyone cringe and i will be cast out into the az wilderness for saying it but...........i get the most evil draw with my meucci plain jane european series cue. it has always had a well shaped and scuffed lepro tip and it has the original no dot no bs shaft. i have heard good things about low deflection shafts (predator and ob) for draw and all types of english but i actually like a regular old meucci original maple shaft and all the flex that comes with it. i can length of the table draw with little effort. let my flogging begin for saying good things about meucci - i know how you all feel
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jrt30004 said:i know this will make everyone cringe and i will be cast out into the az wilderness for saying it but...........i get the most evil draw with my meucci plain jane european series cue. it has always had a well shaped and scuffed lepro tip and it has the original no dot no bs shaft. i have heard good things about low deflection shafts (predator and ob) for draw and all types of english but i actually like a regular old meucci original maple shaft and all the flex that comes with it. i can length of the table draw with little effort. let my flogging begin for saying good things about meucci - i know how you all feel
I won't flog you. I think everyone has a preference and different cues feel and work differently for everyone. Even the same taper on a different cue can hit differently for you, due to the stiffness of the shaft, the weight of the cue, the balance of the weight, the kind of tip used, etc.. I once had a cheapie cue that was great. Well, I still have 3 and I use them occasionally, when my game is off. It helps me get my game back. They were heavier cues. I normally use a 16 oz. cue. I think the weight difference may be what helps me out.
You also have to factor in the person's height, weight, agility, type of hit (punch or push), the table, etc..
You should shoot with whatever cue plays best for you. Win. That's what the game is all about... being able to reallyl compete and to win as many games as possible. And if you can win with a Meucci Plain Jane, that oughta make your opponent feel REALLY beat up.
I just play the game...
I have a few different cues that I love dearly, but they all hit differently. For draw, I prefer a cue with a little more give to it.
As for the tip, I use a Karomi. I don't have to replace it nearly as often as the others, it doesn't mushroom as bad as the others and it has just the right amount of grab, when I need it. For draw, that's the tip I prefer.
I have a Crown Cue with a 13mm, 12+ inch pro taper and an old house cue I picked up from a local pool hall that offer awesome draw, when I need it. (The house cue is a heavier cue, so I seldom use it.)
Impact Blue said:
I have a few different cues that I love dearly, but they all hit differently. For draw, I prefer a cue with a little more give to it.
As for the tip, I use a Karomi. I don't have to replace it nearly as often as the others, it doesn't mushroom as bad as the others and it has just the right amount of grab, when I need it. For draw, that's the tip I prefer.
I have a Crown Cue with a 13mm, 12+ inch pro taper and an old house cue I picked up from a local pool hall that offer awesome draw, when I need it. (The house cue is a heavier cue, so I seldom use it.)
No bashing from me. I always thought the older Meucci cues drew the ball very well. I feel that they didn't follow the ball as well for some reason for me 
.
.jrt30004 said:i know this will make everyone cringe and i will be cast out into the az wilderness for saying it but...........i get the most evil draw with my meucci plain jane european series cue. it has always had a well shaped and scuffed lepro tip and it has the original no dot no bs shaft. i have heard good things about low deflection shafts (predator and ob) for draw and all types of english but i actually like a regular old meucci original maple shaft and all the flex that comes with it. i can length of the table draw with little effort. let my flogging begin for saying good things about meucci - i know how you all feel
Stroke more important than the cue
Someone who is struggling with the draw shot because they haven't developed a good stroke might find that it helps to use a heavier cue, at least initially.
But IMO this is just papering over the cracks - best to work on the stroke.
Impact Blue said:
Someone who is struggling with the draw shot because they haven't developed a good stroke might find that it helps to use a heavier cue, at least initially.
But IMO this is just papering over the cracks - best to work on the stroke.
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My 2 cents
Creating and understanding back spin stumps a lot of low level players. Lets just put hitting the cue ball low enough aside for now. Pretty much everything else that creates excellent draw has to do with increasing the effective tip contact time.
Follow through with an accelerating stroke increases the amount of time the tip is in contact with the cue ball. This is the difference between a stroker and a poker. Pokers jab at the ball and therefor are trying to hold up or decelerate the cue which creates less contact time or "dwell time".
The true pendulum swing. If you are trying to draw use the true pendulum swing that has your back hand hitting your boob. Your tip should end up on the table at the end of the stroke. This stroke ensures you are hitting low enough. Most people who are elbow droppers will not be able to consistently hit the ball in the same spot because they are at times dropping before the hit causing the tip to come up.
IMO if the shaft is whippy I mean the spine is further back towards the joint the shaft will flex a bit more. This flex will make the cue shaft deflect downward as the tip strikes the ball thus the tip will be in contact with the ball longer. I am not sure what anyone else thinks about this?
Now I can draw the length of the table no problem with a bar cue that has a push on tip. So, I firmly believe there is more to technique than equipment. The cue I use the most is a ten year old Falcon with an old Predator shaft probably 12.5mm and Sniper tip. Most recently I started using Blue Diamond chalk and I can't get over how low I can hit the ball with out miscue. So now I can hit real soft and get surprising amounts of draw.
Creating and understanding back spin stumps a lot of low level players. Lets just put hitting the cue ball low enough aside for now. Pretty much everything else that creates excellent draw has to do with increasing the effective tip contact time.
Follow through with an accelerating stroke increases the amount of time the tip is in contact with the cue ball. This is the difference between a stroker and a poker. Pokers jab at the ball and therefor are trying to hold up or decelerate the cue which creates less contact time or "dwell time".
The true pendulum swing. If you are trying to draw use the true pendulum swing that has your back hand hitting your boob. Your tip should end up on the table at the end of the stroke. This stroke ensures you are hitting low enough. Most people who are elbow droppers will not be able to consistently hit the ball in the same spot because they are at times dropping before the hit causing the tip to come up.
IMO if the shaft is whippy I mean the spine is further back towards the joint the shaft will flex a bit more. This flex will make the cue shaft deflect downward as the tip strikes the ball thus the tip will be in contact with the ball longer. I am not sure what anyone else thinks about this?
Now I can draw the length of the table no problem with a bar cue that has a push on tip. So, I firmly believe there is more to technique than equipment. The cue I use the most is a ten year old Falcon with an old Predator shaft probably 12.5mm and Sniper tip. Most recently I started using Blue Diamond chalk and I can't get over how low I can hit the ball with out miscue. So now I can hit real soft and get surprising amounts of draw.
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I think it's 80% tip, 20% cue. I can draw the ball with just about any cue with a good tip. If I'm forced to play with a house cue, the only thing I care about is the tip. Other than that, I don't care if the cue looks like a reed from a basket.
Bigkahuna said:
You can't significantly increase tip/ball contact time by changing your stroke, and even if you could it wouldn't increase spin any more than simply hitting it farther from center.
Hitting farther from center without going too far, and doing it consistently - that's the key, and it's just difficult to do consistently without lots of practice.
pj
chgo
Because you like one better than the other. There are no physical characteristics that matter (except tip condition, which isn't part of cue construction).
pj
chgo
Impact Blue said:
There is a guy in Dallas who uses during his match about 3 different cues. It would confuse me to no end.
He was playing Billy Incordona one night some 9-ball and left himself a rather weird band and broke out a jump stick. He was about to hit it when Billy chirped, "whoa whoa, what are you doing here?"
He missed the shot a full diamond and accused Billy of sharking him. LMAO!!
I was rather amused when he looked at me and asked, "well haven't you ever tried to bank with a jump stick"? I simply said, " no, I always use my bank cue, donn't you have one?"
Masayoshi said:
Think you are partially right if stroke technique is good.:smile:
hmm
i actually pretty much get the same draw out of my cue a house cue or a action cue...and i know what your gonna say and yes its more than 2 inches of draw......... its 3 haha but really i can draw a house cue full table the same as my cue
i actually pretty much get the same draw out of my cue a house cue or a action cue...and i know what your gonna say and yes its more than 2 inches of draw......... its 3 haha but really i can draw a house cue full table the same as my cue
I agree stroke is the important thing, but I don't agree that contact time has anything to do with it. It has been shown on high speed video that contact time is about the same no matter how you stroke the ball - it's the same for robots and humans.
But thinking about increasing your tip/ball contact time can make you stroke more deliberately, which can make you stroke more accurately, which can make you get better draw.
pj
chgo
jrt30004 said:i know this will make everyone cringe and i will be cast out into the az wilderness for saying it but...........i get the most evil draw with my meucci plain jane european series cue. it has always had a well shaped and scuffed lepro tip and it has the original no dot no bs shaft. i have heard good things about low deflection shafts (predator and ob) for draw and all types of english but i actually like a regular old meucci original maple shaft and all the flex that comes with it. i can length of the table draw with little effort. let my flogging begin for saying good things about meucci - i know how you all feel
Actually it's the "action" that you can get on the cueball with a Meucci that makes them (I should say made them) attractive to players. When you play with an older pre-red dot/black dot 32 layer shaft from Meucci you can really juice the ball.
The problem with Meucci isn't in the way it plays it's how they hold up. If you have one that holds up real well and you are used to it then great. I know one pro player who has burned through several sponsors and while he is sponsored by a cuemaker he will still pull out his Meucci when he gambles. Of course I won't reveal who it is.
I will tell you this story of an event I was fortunate enough to witness. One year at Valley Forge Mike Sigel was holding court and going on and on about how great his cues are and how many World Championships he has and how many titles he has. Bob Meucci was standing in the back of the crowd and yells out loudly, "And what cue were you using when you won all those titles Mike?" Mike doesn't answer. Bob walks away.
(it was Meucci)
And Meucci happens to be a great example of the difference in results with the same shot, same hit, same player.
Patrick Johnson said:
I have to disagree with you Pat. I know you have a lot of experience but so do I. Mine however comes from experience with around a hundred brands of cues that we have carried. And in the last two years it comes from experience with cues and shafts that have deliberately differing aspects of construction.
This is because I deal with the cue factory and test their products. They have developed several new shafts and I get to test them all.
If what you say is true then there is absolutely no basis for Predator, Tiger, OB1, or any other so-called performance shaft to be on the market other than radial consistency. Do you want to go on record and say that the ONLY thing that affects the amount of spin imparted to the ball other than the stroke quality is the tip condition?
Do you really believe that if the tip were taken out of the equation that two cues of equal weight but fairly different taper and balance would impart the same amplitude to the cue ball?
I will agree that the tip has a lot to do with it. But as a person who has tested shafts with the same tip brand, shape and hardness (as measured with a Durometer), but with different construction techniques, like different tapers, different types and sizes of rods in the core, 4, 6, 8, and 10 splices, flat laminated, wood pin, G-10 pin, radial pin, and so on, I have to say that you're wrong that it's all in the tip.