will there ever be a dominant player on the men's circuit again?
- Thread starter vapoolplayer
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sjm said:
i do concur, although allison seems to edge it out at the end. i do think things are going to change in the future with players such as ga young kim and jenn barretta coming along. not to mention, fisher, kelly. i think the women's competition is about to get alot tougher.
vapoolplayer said:
Though I admire the other players mentioned, Ga Young Kim has proven herself to be head and shoulders above the rest. She won the US Open AND the World Championship this past year, and imo should be woman player of the year.
(and also imho, she is by far the most talented POOL player amongst the women, including Karen and Allison...The way she's improved I see no reason why she couldn't dominate the woman's circuit, and possibly give the men a run for their money a few years down the road.)
-Roger
buddha162 said:
Ga Young Kim had a great year and has an incredibly bright future that may even include the #1 WPBA ranking one day. We shall see.
To call her head and sholders above the rest, though, is a bit ridiculous. The WPBA rankings don't lie and the they say Ga Young Kim is #8. In the eight WPBA events played, Ga Young Kim reached the TV round in the US Open alone, where Fisher and Corr each reached the TV round in seven of the eight. Top 3 finsihes, Fisher 7, Corr 7, Gy Kim 1. Top 5 finshes, Fisher 8, Corr 8, Gy Kim 2. The 2004 track record says that Corr and Fisher still tower over Ga Young Kim as competitors. How much longer that will be true is anyone's guess.
sjm said:
i have to go with sjm on this one here for now. she is showing her potential, though if you look back, quite a few women have won the world championships one year and not come back the next year and given corr and fisher (allison) a run for their money. i'm not say this is what is going to happen with kim, just that its a little early to say she's above the rest.
piglit said:
i agree 10000000 percent
piglit said:
i was using allison as being an example of the women having a dominant player
in the women's and we got a little off course.
side note, since i wasn't into the pool scene back when the men had a real tour, did they ever try to integrate the men and women in high level tournament play?
sjm said:
Sorry to confuse you, but I was talking about Ga Young being head and shoulders above the rest of the field, ie minus Karen/Allison. I do believe that she has the most potential and talent as a woman 9-ball player, and her current standing on the WPBA is not really an accurate reflection of her abilities.
Her ranking might be #8, but remember that she lives in Taiwan and flies 15-18+ hours to attend tournaments here. Her accomplishments in Asia are more significant, and believe it or not the competition there is stiffer as well.
Take Earl for example: he must've traveled to compete in Taiwan over 50 times over the last 20 years...He has never won a tournament there. Neither has Allison. Or Yang, who is a phenomenal player, comes here and fizzles out. There's alot to adjust to, and I for one hope Ga Young makes a decision to either settle here for a year or so, or just stay in Taiwan and continue practicing/competing with the men pros there. Either way I think she will go farther than any woman in the game of 9 ball, and that is of course strictly mo.
(If you're curious to know why I think so, here it is: Her break is HUGE, I mean, unbelievable for a girl of her stature. She also parks the CB almost every time. Her kicking game is probably a top-ten men's level; she played 3-cushion all her life and in one race to seven against vivian vallereal kicked in 2 balls which were nowhere near a pocket. Her stroke is powerful and smooth, and she plays with confidence...the only thing holding her back from beating Allison consistently is her lack of discipline in certain shot selections, not taking her time etc. Surprising that she learned to play in Taiwan, her style is about as polar opposite from the meticulous Taiwanese players as you can get...)
-Roger
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From what I understand Earl has never won anything in Taiwan. The commentators repeat this everytime he appears on tv over there (not that they don't consider him a living legend; they do, but just gleefully point out that he's a skunk on their little island, lol)
I know Archer's won several tournaments in taiwan in the mid 90's. All the pros love it there cuz they're treated like real celebrities, like, joe schmo asks for their autographs on the streets, and they're treated like corporate VIPs by the Taiwanese pool association.
-Roger
I know Archer's won several tournaments in taiwan in the mid 90's. All the pros love it there cuz they're treated like real celebrities, like, joe schmo asks for their autographs on the streets, and they're treated like corporate VIPs by the Taiwanese pool association.
-Roger
Jimmy M. said:
Earl won the world championships in Taiwan. Jeff Carter came in second. The year was 1990. Earl and Robin successfully defended their titles in 1991 in Las Vegas. Earl beat Nick Varner in the finals, Johnny Archer placed 3rd.
So you are correct!
buddha162 said:
Actually, I don't believe it. The only times in the calendar year that the WPBA 's best get together with the ladies of the asain Pocket billiard Union to compete in the same field are 1) The Amway Cup, and 2) the WPA World Championships. With the glaringly obvious exception of Hsin Mei Liu, who has fared well in both in recent years, the WPBA players have been far more successful than the ladies of the Asian Pocket Billiard Union pool scene. The Asian ladies have also failed consistently at the BCA Open event in Vegas. The talent pool is certainly growing deeper in Asia, but until the Asians make good enough showings at Amway and at the WPA World championships, the case for the superiority of the top Asian Pocket Billiard players over the top ladies of the WPBA is as weak as weak can be.
JustPlay said:
I think we're both wrong. You're right about the winners, but it looks like the tournament that Earl won in '90 was in Bergheim, Germany, followed by another win in '91 in Las Vegas. The next year, '92, the tournament was held in Taiwan, and that tournament was won by Johnny Archer. Oh well, I remembered that Taiwan was in the mix there somewhere.
Jimmy M. said:I think we're both wrong. You're right about the winners, but it looks like the tournament that Earl won in '90 was in Bergheim, Germany, followed by another win in '91 in Las Vegas. The next year, '92, the tournament was held in Taiwan, and that tournament was won by Johnny Archer. Oh well, I remembered that Taiwan was in the mix there somewhere.
Hey I was just about to post this info, but you beat me to it.
I was rooting for Earl in Taipei this past WPC, but he suffered a complete meltdown and lost. Maybe next year...
-Roger
sjm said:
Well, I guess you don't have to believe it. But I've seen the women pros play in Taiwan (live and in person), and I can tell you that their base standard is a hell of a lot higher than that of the WPBA. Have you seen some of the matches recently on ESPN? I thought it was a D tri-state tournament televised.
Anyway, do you agree or disagree with the rest of my post? My main points are A.) Kim Ga Young has the most potential to dominate among any of the women 'cept Karen and Allison (and they're at their peak now), and B.) Her global commute hampers her tournament standing here in the States.
Really all I'm trying to say is, Ga Young is special, she is worthy of extra attention when she first came on the tour and especially now that she snapped off the US Open and the Worlds in the same year.
-Roger
Can anyone here tell me all the rules for 9-ball the way it was played in the past, 20 years ago like Jimmy said?
Also, I definately agree with Drivermaker that whoever wins the tournament is whoever is breaking well and is in stroke. We all see it happen, some no-name plays in a big tournament, is in dead punch, and he snaps it off. This happens with all the top pros too. Whoever is in dead punch and breaking the best that particular tournament is going to win it.
The problem with pool and having a certain player be a dominating force is that pool is one of the very few games (maybe the only game) where theoretically (and it's happened many times) someone can lose a match without even participating in it, i.e. in a race to 7 the other guy breaks and runs a 7-pack from the flip.
Even if you are the best of the best, if you don't get to shoot, or are always in jail when you come to the table, you're not gonna win.
Also, I definately agree with Drivermaker that whoever wins the tournament is whoever is breaking well and is in stroke. We all see it happen, some no-name plays in a big tournament, is in dead punch, and he snaps it off. This happens with all the top pros too. Whoever is in dead punch and breaking the best that particular tournament is going to win it.
The problem with pool and having a certain player be a dominating force is that pool is one of the very few games (maybe the only game) where theoretically (and it's happened many times) someone can lose a match without even participating in it, i.e. in a race to 7 the other guy breaks and runs a 7-pack from the flip.
Even if you are the best of the best, if you don't get to shoot, or are always in jail when you come to the table, you're not gonna win.
buddha162 said:
I strongly agree with you, Buddha, that Ga Young Kim is very special, and she has a great chance to reach #1 on the WPBA at some point. I just don't see it happening in the 2005 WPBA season, though reaching #3 is, in my estimation, a possibility. She's a great raw talent and she's definitely coming into her own. One key hump for her to get over is that she has a very poor record against Allison Fisher in WPBA play. As you've noted, though, Ga Young Kim's really got game. I attend a lot of WPBA events and look forward to watching her compete.
Your point about her "global commute" is interesting, and I have to admit I've never given it much thought. It seems to me that you're probably right, that it is holding her back. If you consider the pool career of Jennifer Chen, the only other highly-ranked Asian woman who does the same, you find even more evidence that your claim is true. Chen's best years on the WPBA were those in which she lived in Los Angeles. Once she moved back to Asia, she was far less successful in WPBA play.
LastTwo said:
The rules I was talking about was when balls spotted after a foul, and a foul after the break was ball-in-hand behind the line, not anywhere on the table. There were other differences as well, but those were the main ones. It doesn't sound like much of a change, but there were a lot of times when strategy would become the focus of the game over shot making. Scratching on the break wasn't a death sentence the way it is now -- especially if you made a couple balls on the break because they would spot up and now there would be two balls tied up that the incoming player would have to contend with. Not to mention, having to keep the cue ball behind the line, the incoming player might not have a good shot on the 1. There are a lot of scenarios where these two rules would make a huge difference in the way that the games are played out. I think those rules are better because it makes 9-ball less one-dimentional than the current rules which place all of the emphasis on shot making. (Disclaimer: JMO)
Jimmy M. said:
Right on, Jimmy, and the version of nine ball you've referred to is called "Shootout", and there were more push-outs permitted in that format of play. It's arguable, but some contend that those rules gave a greater advantage to the great shotmakers than Texas Express, as great shotmakers could push-out into super-tough shots. You're right about the strategy, too. It was very different and very intreresting. Still, the defense and kicking games were less interesting and less important in that version of nine ball, and it's in the areas of defense and kicking that I find Texas Express to be truly fascinating. "Shootout" did take out some of the luck factor, but at the expense of slowing the game down a little. I grew up playing "Shootout," but have come to prefer Texas Express.