T
THE SILENCER
Guest
isn't it intresting the greatest pool player who ever lived, had no nick name. maybe because the hustlers hated him, and he hated hustlers?
THE SILENCER said:
From the book Winning One Pocket - as taught by the games greatest players....
Fats vs. Mosconi, 1952
Willie Mosconi, in the late '40s, had made several trips between Philly and New York to play Rudolph "Downtown Fats" Wanderone straight pool (aka, Minnesota Fats). Fats was always trying to get Willie to play him one pocket and Willie always refused since he had never learned how to play that particular game. Mosconi finally agreed to play Fats one pocket for $200 a game IF Fats would play him in Philly. "Fatty" had a backer that gave him 2 Gs to go play Mosconi and off he went to take off the straight pool legend at a game Mosconi supposedly didn't know how to play.
He called his backer in New York to ask for more money, saying Mosconi couldn't move at all and that it was a great game for him but that he needed a new stake. When his backer asked what had happened that resulted in his loss of the first $2000, Fats answered that Willie didn't understand the many sophisticated and finesse moves of the one pocket game and that he had continually beat the great Willie Mosconi to the shot, but Mosconi, not knowing any better, just kept running 8 and out.
Mosconi might not have known the shots, moves, or strategies of the one pocket game, but he certainly knew how to run out, and out, and out, and out.....
T
THE SILENCER
Guest
good passage, still dosen't answer, why no nick name.
Mosconi, Brunswick & The Music Man...
Mosconi is the ultimate poster boy for the 'Music Man' syndrome that continues to dog pool to this day, most insidiously from the inside out!!! Mosconi, remember, was the marquee player rep for the Brunswick Corporation -- the BIG DADDY of the Americal Pool industry at that time. You know, the same company that for a hundred years has tried to pretend there's not supposed to be any gambling in pool, you know, it ruins the game. That's the big lie that I call the Music Man syndrome. Gambling has been a central part of billiards at least as long as there have been public tables (maybe 16th century? I'll let an expert chime in on that), and maybe even before that, when it was only for near royalty. The indisputable fact is, pool has thrived over the last 400 years more because of the hustling and gambling, than despite it.
Somewhere recently I heard the following story: That when Mosconi was first approached by The Hustler producers with an offer to assist with the movie, he hesitated, because of the gambling & hustling and fear that Brunswick would drop him, even though the opportunity was appealing. Supposedly he checked with his Brunswick bosses, who apparently allowed him -- although many of his industry friends expressed disappointment to him for lowering himself in that way. Then within weeks after the movie release, as their sales skyrocketed, those same exec's called him back to thank him!!!
Brunswick has a hundred year history of trying (totally unsuccessfully) to choke off the 'darker side' of pool, and Mosconi bought into that himself (he probably had too under terms of his contract, in fact). All Brunswick was actually able to accomplish was to choke off the tournament careers of blacklisted players (pun intended?) like James Evans, and for quite a while, Cisero Murphy -- and of course white gambler/players like Jack Breit to a degree.
I personally do not celebrate this 'dark side' of Mosconi or Brunswick...
Speaking of nicknames, how about 'The Philly Fop'
(Sorry, I didn't really mean that -- he was indeed a very great player)
However in my opinion, he shared with Brunswick (and the BCA -- now!) the mistaken, misguided and misplaced paranoia that I call 'The Music Man' syndrome.
Isn't it also interesting that he was the reigning star that presided over the virtual collapse of pool through the 50'sTHE SILENCER said:
Mosconi is the ultimate poster boy for the 'Music Man' syndrome that continues to dog pool to this day, most insidiously from the inside out!!! Mosconi, remember, was the marquee player rep for the Brunswick Corporation -- the BIG DADDY of the Americal Pool industry at that time. You know, the same company that for a hundred years has tried to pretend there's not supposed to be any gambling in pool, you know, it ruins the game. That's the big lie that I call the Music Man syndrome. Gambling has been a central part of billiards at least as long as there have been public tables (maybe 16th century? I'll let an expert chime in on that), and maybe even before that, when it was only for near royalty. The indisputable fact is, pool has thrived over the last 400 years more because of the hustling and gambling, than despite it.
Somewhere recently I heard the following story: That when Mosconi was first approached by The Hustler producers with an offer to assist with the movie, he hesitated, because of the gambling & hustling and fear that Brunswick would drop him, even though the opportunity was appealing. Supposedly he checked with his Brunswick bosses, who apparently allowed him -- although many of his industry friends expressed disappointment to him for lowering himself in that way. Then within weeks after the movie release, as their sales skyrocketed, those same exec's called him back to thank him!!!
Brunswick has a hundred year history of trying (totally unsuccessfully) to choke off the 'darker side' of pool, and Mosconi bought into that himself (he probably had too under terms of his contract, in fact). All Brunswick was actually able to accomplish was to choke off the tournament careers of blacklisted players (pun intended?) like James Evans, and for quite a while, Cisero Murphy -- and of course white gambler/players like Jack Breit to a degree.
I personally do not celebrate this 'dark side' of Mosconi or Brunswick...
Speaking of nicknames, how about 'The Philly Fop'
(Sorry, I didn't really mean that -- he was indeed a very great player)
However in my opinion, he shared with Brunswick (and the BCA -- now!) the mistaken, misguided and misplaced paranoia that I call 'The Music Man' syndrome.
Last edited:
Good post, Reno. I heard Willie talk about that match on tv
once. Also, he did have a nickname. It was" Willie".
Fats vs. Mosconi, 1952
Willie Mosconi, in the late '40s, had made several trips between Philly and New York to play Rudolph "Downtown Fats" Wanderone straight pool (aka, Minnesota Fats). Fats was always trying to get Willie to play him one pocket and Willie always refused since he had never learned how to play that particular game. Mosconi finally agreed to play Fats one pocket for $200 a game IF Fats would play him in Philly. "Fatty" had a backer that gave him 2 Gs to go play Mosconi and off he went to take off the straight pool legend at a game Mosconi supposedly didn't know how to play.
He called his backer in New York to ask for more money, saying Mosconi couldn't move at all and that it was a great game for him but that he needed a new stake. When his backer asked what had happened that resulted in his loss of the first $2000, Fats answered that Willie didn't understand the many sophisticated and finesse moves of the one pocket game and that he had continually beat the great Willie Mosconi to the shot, but Mosconi, not knowing any better, just kept running 8 and out.
Mosconi might not have known the shots, moves, or strategies of the one pocket game, but he certainly knew how to run out, and out, and out, and out.....[/QUOTE]
once. Also, he did have a nickname. It was" Willie".
Fats vs. Mosconi, 1952
Willie Mosconi, in the late '40s, had made several trips between Philly and New York to play Rudolph "Downtown Fats" Wanderone straight pool (aka, Minnesota Fats). Fats was always trying to get Willie to play him one pocket and Willie always refused since he had never learned how to play that particular game. Mosconi finally agreed to play Fats one pocket for $200 a game IF Fats would play him in Philly. "Fatty" had a backer that gave him 2 Gs to go play Mosconi and off he went to take off the straight pool legend at a game Mosconi supposedly didn't know how to play.
He called his backer in New York to ask for more money, saying Mosconi couldn't move at all and that it was a great game for him but that he needed a new stake. When his backer asked what had happened that resulted in his loss of the first $2000, Fats answered that Willie didn't understand the many sophisticated and finesse moves of the one pocket game and that he had continually beat the great Willie Mosconi to the shot, but Mosconi, not knowing any better, just kept running 8 and out.
Mosconi might not have known the shots, moves, or strategies of the one pocket game, but he certainly knew how to run out, and out, and out, and out.....[/QUOTE]
I saw an Accu-Stats match between Johnny Archer and Wade Crane (Billy Johnson) were they were playing one-pocket at the Derby city classic I believe in 99 or so.
Archer didn't know how to break or move a lick at that time (not sure if his one hole game has improved) but he ran 8 and out every time. I think Wade did win one game in the set...but Archer's runs were great..and no gimme's.
It was funny at the end. Bill Incardona was telling Johnny, that he didn't know how to win...but one thing he was great at, and that really mattered was that he knew how to run out and not miss. Incardona told Johnny that if he knew how to play one-pocket he wouldn't have taken probably 45% of the shots he went for.
Still, it proves that if you don't miss...the run out is always the best choice. If you make the tough shots you're a hero, if you miss them you're a dog. Me, I'll still play the percentages.
Not trying to make this into a one-pocket post, but I was playing a one-pocket tournament last Sunday. I was in my fourth match. Race to three. Score was one-to-one. I needed one ball, he needed three. There were two balls close to the top rail (roughly in between our two pockets and maybe one was four inches off the rail..one was around 7 inches off the rail, and one ball was on the rail about 5 inches away from my pocket.
I'm playing smart shots, keeping the advantage (pretty handily -- already thinking about my next match)...pretty confident if I played smart the odds are I'm going to get my one ball before he gets all three. He just goes off with some wild-haymaker kick shot, kicking the ball closed to my hole. It barely comes off the rail, combo's a ball into his pocket, the other two balls contact and go right towards his hole...leaving them both roughly a foot away..and the cue ball falls perfect like 8 inches away from either shot, with a good angle either way. My jaw dropped and I thought of the old saying, "Sometimes you can play your best, but you're just not meant to win..." I wish I had that kick on video though. What appeared to be a give-up shot (the guy isn't supposed to beat me), turned into the luckiest role I've ever seen in one pocket. I did like witnessing the shot, I just did not like that it was used against me!
Archer didn't know how to break or move a lick at that time (not sure if his one hole game has improved) but he ran 8 and out every time. I think Wade did win one game in the set...but Archer's runs were great..and no gimme's.
It was funny at the end. Bill Incardona was telling Johnny, that he didn't know how to win...but one thing he was great at, and that really mattered was that he knew how to run out and not miss. Incardona told Johnny that if he knew how to play one-pocket he wouldn't have taken probably 45% of the shots he went for.
Still, it proves that if you don't miss...the run out is always the best choice. If you make the tough shots you're a hero, if you miss them you're a dog. Me, I'll still play the percentages.
Not trying to make this into a one-pocket post, but I was playing a one-pocket tournament last Sunday. I was in my fourth match. Race to three. Score was one-to-one. I needed one ball, he needed three. There were two balls close to the top rail (roughly in between our two pockets and maybe one was four inches off the rail..one was around 7 inches off the rail, and one ball was on the rail about 5 inches away from my pocket.
I'm playing smart shots, keeping the advantage (pretty handily -- already thinking about my next match)...pretty confident if I played smart the odds are I'm going to get my one ball before he gets all three. He just goes off with some wild-haymaker kick shot, kicking the ball closed to my hole. It barely comes off the rail, combo's a ball into his pocket, the other two balls contact and go right towards his hole...leaving them both roughly a foot away..and the cue ball falls perfect like 8 inches away from either shot, with a good angle either way. My jaw dropped and I thought of the old saying, "Sometimes you can play your best, but you're just not meant to win..." I wish I had that kick on video though. What appeared to be a give-up shot (the guy isn't supposed to beat me), turned into the luckiest role I've ever seen in one pocket. I did like witnessing the shot, I just did not like that it was used against me!
Betting money on pool games
I have certainly done my share of gambling on pool games over the years.The thing that always amazes me is no matter how well one plays the game, it almost always comes down to "Yeah but can he play for the cash?"
You hear stories about two well known players matching up and the game lasting a day and a half. The winner was the one with the most stamina not necessarily the best player.I have seen matches like that where the last few hours almost anyone could have beaten either one of them.
There used to be a time in this game where gentlemen played for the camaraderie of being with men talking about manly things. Most places had signs "NO WOMEN ALLOWED". Most games were played with the loser paying the time.Yes there was gambling ,but you were not chastised for not wanting to gamble.
If two people play a game of straight pool for the time and one runs 125 and out, is that game rated lower on a scale comparing it to a game where hundreds or thousands of dollars were wagered?
I have seen many people who played GREAT, but would not bet a nickel.
Were they no gamblin' nits? Did they have no heart? Were they too weak?
No they just did not want to gamble.
I know that there probably has been gambling connected to pool from it's onset but I think people should take a look at that. You should not condemn a person who chooses not to gamble and they should not condemn you for gambling.I think there is room for both venues.
In closing don't forget that guy that will not gamble who plays better than you just saved you money!
Titanic
I have certainly done my share of gambling on pool games over the years.The thing that always amazes me is no matter how well one plays the game, it almost always comes down to "Yeah but can he play for the cash?"
You hear stories about two well known players matching up and the game lasting a day and a half. The winner was the one with the most stamina not necessarily the best player.I have seen matches like that where the last few hours almost anyone could have beaten either one of them.
There used to be a time in this game where gentlemen played for the camaraderie of being with men talking about manly things. Most places had signs "NO WOMEN ALLOWED". Most games were played with the loser paying the time.Yes there was gambling ,but you were not chastised for not wanting to gamble.
If two people play a game of straight pool for the time and one runs 125 and out, is that game rated lower on a scale comparing it to a game where hundreds or thousands of dollars were wagered?
I have seen many people who played GREAT, but would not bet a nickel.
Were they no gamblin' nits? Did they have no heart? Were they too weak?
No they just did not want to gamble.
I know that there probably has been gambling connected to pool from it's onset but I think people should take a look at that. You should not condemn a person who chooses not to gamble and they should not condemn you for gambling.I think there is room for both venues.
In closing don't forget that guy that will not gamble who plays better than you just saved you money!
Titanic
Betting money on pool games
I have certainly done my share of gambling on pool games over the years.The thing that always amazes me is no matter how well one plays the game, it almost always comes down to "Yeah but can he play for the cash?"
You hear stories about two well known players matching up and the game lasting a day and a half. The winner was the one with the most stamina not necessarily the best player.I have seen matches like that where the last few hours almost anyone could have beaten either one of them.
There used to be a time in this game where gentlemen played for the camaraderie of being with men talking about manly things. Most places had signs "NO WOMEN ALLOWED". Most games were played with the loser paying the time.Yes there was gambling ,but you were not chastised for not wanting to gamble.
If two people play a game of straight pool for the time and one runs 125 and out, is that game rated lower on a scale comparing it to a game where hundreds or thousands of dollars were wagered?
I have seen many people who played GREAT, but would not bet a nickel.
Were they no gamblin' nits? Did they have no heart? Were they too weak?
No they just did not want to gamble.
I know that there probably has been gambling connected to pool from it's onset but I think people should take a look at that. You should not condemn a person who chooses not to gamble and they should not condemn you for gambling.I think there is room for both venues.
In closing don't forget that guy that will not gamble who plays better than you just saved you money!
Titanic
I have certainly done my share of gambling on pool games over the years.The thing that always amazes me is no matter how well one plays the game, it almost always comes down to "Yeah but can he play for the cash?"You hear stories about two well known players matching up and the game lasting a day and a half. The winner was the one with the most stamina not necessarily the best player.I have seen matches like that where the last few hours almost anyone could have beaten either one of them.
There used to be a time in this game where gentlemen played for the camaraderie of being with men talking about manly things. Most places had signs "NO WOMEN ALLOWED". Most games were played with the loser paying the time.Yes there was gambling ,but you were not chastised for not wanting to gamble.
If two people play a game of straight pool for the time and one runs 125 and out, is that game rated lower on a scale comparing it to a game where hundreds or thousands of dollars were wagered?
I have seen many people who played GREAT, but would not bet a nickel.
Were they no gamblin' nits? Did they have no heart? Were they too weak?
No they just did not want to gamble.
I know that there probably has been gambling connected to pool from it's onset but I think people should take a look at that. You should not condemn a person who chooses not to gamble and they should not condemn you for gambling.I think there is room for both venues.
In closing don't forget that guy that will not gamble who plays better than you just saved you money!
Titanic
I never put anyone down for refusing to gamble. And yes, their refusal may have saved me some cash from time to time. But, I think most people just realize that when your cash is on the line it changes the mental game a bit. In a match that may usually be a coin toss, the one who is used to putting up the cash will have an edge more often than not.
HA! How did we go from nicknames to gambling?
HA! How did we go from nicknames to gambling?
senor said:
Except perhaps in New York.
K
King Cueball
Guest
I wouldn"t call willie the best of all time. I think he may have been the best 14.1 player of all time, But then again you can make a case for Ralph Greenleaf who willie even said that he copyed Ralph and learned alot from him. I dont know why willie never had a nickname But when you"re that good everyone knows who you are anyway just by WILLIE!
Some really good posts here even though they don't have much to do with Willie's nickname!
Gambling - I think it does hurt pool and here's why:
1. Money is what gamblers use to gamble with so they are usually pretty tight with it. The pool hall that has a lot of gamblers in it doesn't usually make a lot of money.
2. Unfortunately, there are a lot of chiselers trying to eke out a few bucks and they don't help the place draw in people that will legitimately spend money.
3. Some people don't take well to losing their hard-earned money and sometimes cause some real problems that can result in temporary closure of the pool hall or worse.
Personally, I love to watch a good money game between two really good players but that doesn't mitigate what I said above.
Ironically, I do think that gambling on TV may be the answer to making pool more popular to TV viewers. I think that ring game format could be the way to do that, I sure hope it is because I loved watching it on BCn!
Gambling - I think it does hurt pool and here's why:
1. Money is what gamblers use to gamble with so they are usually pretty tight with it. The pool hall that has a lot of gamblers in it doesn't usually make a lot of money.
2. Unfortunately, there are a lot of chiselers trying to eke out a few bucks and they don't help the place draw in people that will legitimately spend money.
3. Some people don't take well to losing their hard-earned money and sometimes cause some real problems that can result in temporary closure of the pool hall or worse.
Personally, I love to watch a good money game between two really good players but that doesn't mitigate what I said above.
Ironically, I do think that gambling on TV may be the answer to making pool more popular to TV viewers. I think that ring game format could be the way to do that, I sure hope it is because I loved watching it on BCn!
E
elanobeone
Guest
King Cueball said:
Great Champions of that era did not need handles, they had a name. Willie Hoppe, Ralph Greenleaf, you called him Ralph. Hustlers and roadies and gamblers had names like choke the cheeze charlie. Back then, if you wanted sponsors and backing, you had to take the high road and not be associated with that crowd.
P
pocoloco12003
Guest
Templar said:
Not so, his name was the Penguin, the guy would would not play for half a pop. Greenleaf was known as the drunk and Hoppe was the Boy Wonder.
Many great players did not need made up names such as Alfredo De Oro, Juan and Ezequeil Navarra, Eduarado Garganui or the great Joe Chamaco, A mexican who you could call just Joe. He was world champion of 1939 with a hight run of 18 in 3 cushion billiards. Joe did not have to make up some silly name like the mexican bandito or the mexican dealer of doom to be well known and loved by all. Just plain old Joe.