Winning vs. Learning

[FLICKit]

It seems to me that those who might advocate ducking out if you're not 100% sure of a runout presume that you'll win a higher percentage of times by doing so.

Haven't seen anyone say that you duck, if you're not 100% sure. That'd be dumb. Likewise it'd be dumb to try for the run-out 100% of the time.

I do not agree with this presumption. I would argue that someone in your skill level may lose more often by not going for the runout. But that disagreement goes into a whole discussion of expected return, expected value, risk vs. reward, payoff vs. odds.

This part we pretty much agree on. You also may be right that someone in his level may lose. That would raise the question, what areas of weakness that would make this so (i.e. bad at safeties, controlling the cue ball or object ball, position play, strategizing and tactis, ...).

I mean, that's partly why you're asking in the first place. You're teetering on an edge. Do you keep on going, so that you can answer without a doubt that going for the runout increases your chances of winning? Or do you turn back and say that ducking will increase your chances of winning?

Even if going for the runout increases your chances of winning, that may only be a reflection of the competition that you're playing against. When you move up to higher level competition, then your weaknesses will get exposed. So, if you want to progress your game for higher level play, then you'd better have all the skills, and not be just one dimensional.

You can't practice like you play.

Every strong player, can.
For weaker players, you are probably right. Some reasons may not have the time or may not have the discipline necessary. With these flaws will always remain a weaker player.

Playing for those runouts during competition is practice. It's the building blocks for your future growth.

Sounds like you're advocating playing for run-outs 100% of the time. Since not even the top players run-out 100% of the time, there is a breadth of non run-out skills that you may want in your arsenal.

 

[Cornerman]

Sounds like you're advocating playing for run-outs 100% of the time. Since not even the top players run-out 100% of the time, there is a breadth of non run-out skills that you may want in your arsenal.

Of course I'm not.

Of course there's a breadth of non-runout skills that a player should have in his aresenal. But that's not the question in hand. I'd rather consider the question and where the OP's current skill level is.

The question was "Winning vs. Learning." I could admonish Andrew himself for asking such a loaded question, since Learning is not the opposite of Winning. And he obviously feels a shortcoming of running out during competition. I think it's very important for him to realize that just because he failed a runout doesn't mean he would have won the game if he hadn't gone for the runout. That would be wishful thinking.

People also have written that against stronger players, trying for the runout more often will lower their winning percentage due to always opening up the table. I would counter that by saying that against stronger players, his chances of winning decreases either way. Stronger players play the non-runout game strongly also.

Fred

 

[Cornerman]

I believe that most every great player along their journey to greatness had to venture into uncharted waters, during intense competition, not knowing for sure the outcome. Having it pay off and sometimes not.

I also believe that some key qualities the “great” ones possess are adaptability and/or ability to improvise and create. Sure you can practice after the fact but discovery may only present itself one time.

Rick

Great post, Rick. Very understandable, and really accentuates the importance of putting yourself out there during competition.

As some of our instructors on this board often say, you do not know what you don't know. That applies to actual play and what you can execute when the time comes as well.

Fred

 

[TATE]

I would like to add to what Fred said. I get a lot of players that safe against me a couple of times, and then if I kick safe them or make a good shot, or bank a ball in or kick a ball in and run out, that's the last of it. Then they really start playing dumb shots after that. So, the safety game can backfire on you. If you play a safe, there is a lot to consider, like who you're playing and what they can do. Make sure it is quality and necessary, and above all, make sure it really is safe.

Chris

 

[FLICKit]

I would like to add to what Fred said. I get a lot of players that safe against me a couple of times, and then if I kick safe them or make a good shot, or bank a ball in or kick a ball in and run out, that's the last of it. Then they really start playing dumb shots after that. So, the safety game can backfire on you. If you play a safe, there is a lot to consider, like who you're playing and what they can do. Make sure it is quality and necessary, and above all, make sure it really is safe.

Chris

In many ways that relates much to what we've been saying. Having the breadth of skills is vital to one's success. Always running out, is not always the smart strategy. Always playing safe is not always the best. When you're playing safe, there's the art of how well you can do it. When one tactic doesn't work, what other options do you have in your arsenal. If a player's first option doesn't work, and they have no reserve options, then they'll fall apart much like the example that you described. Running out tactics may work in some situations, but it also may open you up to losing more often against weaker 6's, 5's...

There is nothing wrong with always trying to run out. If you want to make yourself stronger and harder to beat, you may want to utilize other weapons as well.

 

[Cory in DC]

I would like to add to what Fred said. I get a lot of players that safe against me a couple of times, and then if I kick safe them or make a good shot, or bank a ball in or kick a ball in and run out, that's the last of it. Then they really start playing dumb shots after that. So, the safety game can backfire on you. If you play a safe, there is a lot to consider, like who you're playing and what they can do. Make sure it is quality and necessary, and above all, make sure it really is safe.

Chris

That's a great point. At APA 3-5 speed, even 6 and some 7's, it's easy to think a safety simply means the opponent does not have a direct hit on any ball (but there may be one or more easy kicks, often that are very strong counter-moves). So when you do safe, the goal should be to aim for a jam-up safety, which usually but not always means freezing up on another ball. 1-pocket is great practice for this, IMO.

Cory

 

[Cornerman]

There is nothing wrong with always trying to run out. If you want to make yourself stronger and harder to beat, you may want to utilize other weapons as well.

I think this is fine, but if I read Andrew's post correctly, he is talking about situations where it's a runout that's available, but he finds himself not quite getting out. I don't think anyone is suggesting "always trying to run out."

And now his question is, does he keep on trying to get out on those time when there is an available runout even if he might not get out? The plus side he hopes by going for the runout is that he gleans the information necessary to increase his possibilities the next time. The minus is that he feels he sells it out more often than he cares to.

IMO, on those situations (not some other situations that aren't pertinent to his question), he should go for the runout with hopes that in doing so, he improves. The players left standing at any 8-ball tournament in Anytown, USA are the ones who runout the racks that they're supposed to more often. I think that's the direction most players in that APA 6-7 range want to get to. PLayers in lower handicaps have different immediate goals. That's an entirely different discussion.

Fred

 

[DelaWho???]

I Clearing up trouble early is my biggest strength in most of my matches. My all-too common downfall is I go right to the trouble, clear it up, and then mess up the "easy part" of the run-out badly (miss a shot or hook myself) because I haven't learned to keep it together for the whole 9 yards.

-Andrew

Andrew
I think you have a focus problem....You execute the difficult portion of the run and clear the problems, and then "mess up the easy part". You knuckle down for the hard part and then one of 2 things happen. Either you take the "easy" shot for granted and you don't focus on it like the "hard" shot, causing you to omit your preshot routine, or stand up out of the shot or some other breakdown in fundamentals. The only other thing I can think of is maybe you're so psyched about making the tough shot that you just blow the next easy shot due to adrenaline.

Great thread

McCue Banger McCue

 

[GADawg]

That's why practice is so important. It not only extends your limits, but your objective assessment of your performance in practice gives you a reliable benchmark as to just what those limits are. This is what gives you the knowledge and confidence to play the best you can WITHIN YOUR GAME. In short, extend your boundaries during practice and play within your boundaries in competition (unless of course, winning and losing are only incidental factors when you compete!)

That's the ticket! Practice is the key to improving. Remember the shots you missed when trying to runout and practice those shots alone at the table until you increase your make percentage and confidence in the shots.

Another similar thing that has helped my competitive play is improved concentration on the EASY shots. I read somewhere the other day that the hardest shot in pool to make is the easy shot immediately following a difficult shot. You are so elated and relieved at making the hard shot that you let up, lose concentration and miss the easy ones.

I spend some time in every practice session setting up easy cuts and shooting the same shot repeatedly with different english, follow, draw etc. There are certain easy shots that come up repeatedly in match situations and you want to be 99% confident that you can make that shot and put the CB where you want it for the next shot.

Rep to VIProfessor

 

[Andrew Manning]

Andrew
I think you have a focus problem....You execute the difficult portion of the run and clear the problems, and then "mess up the easy part". You knuckle down for the hard part and then one of 2 things happen. Either you take the "easy" shot for granted and you don't focus on it like the "hard" shot, causing you to omit your preshot routine, or stand up out of the shot or some other breakdown in fundamentals. The only other thing I can think of is maybe you're so psyched about making the tough shot that you just blow the next easy shot due to adrenaline.

Great thread

McCue Banger McCue

There's no doubt in my mind that focus is my weak point, but if solving the problem were as easy as naming it, we'd all be 100-ball runners. Rest assured it's something I'm actively striving to improve. All three reasons you mentioned why I might mess up the easy part are things I'm occasionally guilty of. My particular "stand up out of the shot" fundamentals breakdown is aligning my bridge hand poorly and failing to stand up and correct my alignment before pulling the trigger. Also sometimes I take shots for granted and sometimes I psych myself out.

-Andrew

 

[Gabber]

So, I'm with the philosophy of improvement by any means in league situations. That means run and gun when if there's a runout available. If there's no runout, I try my best to make a runout available. And sometimes, that means going right down to the end with troubled balls and clearing out the table.

Fred

Tap. Tap. Tap
If you have a shot, the run out is on. A table can change dramatically in a couple of shots.
Losing to average players ,because of playing agressively ,is a price a player has to pay on the road to improvement.

Gabber

 

[Cornerman]

nother similar thing that has helped my competitive play is improved concentration on the EASY shots.

This is one of the things I list in my "Fred's Idiot Guide to Runout 8-ball."

{just checked: it's the first thing on my list!}

Fred