Winning vs. Learning

[Andrew Manning]

Here's an interesting quandary I've been up against:

I play in an APA 8-ball league as an SL6. As far as I've been able to ascertain, SL6 is an accurate rating of my average speed (although when I'm really in stroke, I'd like to think I play considerably better than most 6's). So it means if I break and make a ball and have a reasonably open table, I have a chance to get out, i.e. all the shots I'll need to get out (including break-outs, problem balls, etc.) are things I can execute successfully most of the time.

Put those 7 or so shots together, however, and me making it all the way through without a mistake that ends my runout or puts it in serious jeopardy becomes a pretty risky proposition.

So I know in 8-ball the worst strategical blunder is clearing up most of the table and then missing. Yet this is what I do all the time, and it's because I don't want to pass up on attempting to get out, when I know that it's within my ability. I feel like my runout percentage isn't going to go up unless I keep trying to run out, especially in pressure situations.

So basically I'm saying for my present skill level, I feel I have a choice between the best strategy for winning (clear up a problem or two and then duck) and the best strategy for improving (go for the runout, and as I gain experience and practice, I'll make it more and more often).

At this point, I've chosen to usually go for it and take my knocks now so I can learn to be a better player down the road. I don't play for money except on rare occasions, so I can afford to commit to improvement at the expense of winning percentage. Anyone have any conflicting or supporting viewpoints on my dilemma?

-Andrew

 

[Purdman]

I pretty much feel and play the same way. We should get together sometime.
Purdman

 

[cheemagun]

Here's an interesting quandary I've been up against:

I play in an APA 8-ball league as an SL6. As far as I've been able to ascertain, SL6 is an accurate rating of my average speed (although when I'm really in stroke, I'd like to think I play considerably better than most 6's). So it means if I break and make a ball and have a reasonably open table, I have a chance to get out, i.e. all the shots I'll need to get out (including break-outs, problem balls, etc.) are things I can execute successfully most of the time.

Put those 7 or so shots together, however, and me making it all the way through without a mistake that ends my runout or puts it in serious jeopardy becomes a pretty risky proposition.

So I know in 8-ball the worst strategical blunder is clearing up most of the table and then missing. Yet this is what I do all the time, and it's because I don't want to pass up on attempting to get out, when I know that it's within my ability. I feel like my runout percentage isn't going to go up unless I keep trying to run out, especially in pressure situations.

So basically I'm saying for my present skill level, I feel I have a choice between the best strategy for winning (clear up a problem or two and then duck) and the best strategy for improving (go for the runout, and as I gain experience and practice, I'll make it more and more often).

At this point, I've chosen to usually go for it and take my knocks now so I can learn to be a better player down the road. I don't play for money except on rare occasions, so I can afford to commit to improvement at the expense of winning percentage. Anyone have any conflicting or supporting viewpoints on my dilemma?

-Andrew

I think you also have to consider that safetys are a big part of the game wether you can run out or not.. when you need to duck, duck. if its a table you can run out from.. run out. but if the run outs hard.. then choose your spot to duck if you cant clear.

for example: if the saftey is harder then the offensive shot, go for the shot.
but, if your not feeling the shot youve come up against, or your not shooting too good today then duck good.. and wait for your chance..
improving you can do when you practice for a couple of hours. that will give you confidence when your out there trying to win and that shot you come up against will seem easier, then you will naturally choose that over the saftey. and then your run outs will get easier and you will run out more often.

 

[Gregg]

Sounds like someone who overestimates their chances of running out.

According to some, like Phil Capelle, running out down to the last one or two balls is the #1 sin of competitive eight ball player.

Better to play safe, until you sure to run out.

After watching the IPT, it's pretty clear that top flight eight ball shooters do their best to get trouble balls out of the way as quickly as possible.

I think this is because, in eight ball, the more balls you have, the more you can do to get position, break a cluster, or play safe.

Running out down to one or two trouble balls, against a good player, is usually a disaster.

You being an APA SL6 I think that you already know all this, but maybe this will reinforce it for your.

In my TAP league, even lower skill shooters tend to play a lot more defense, and when you continue to lose to players with half of your run out skills, you learn pretty quick if you suffer from too many failed run outs, you going to lose, and lose big, to a guy you have no business losing to.

This is how you "learn" IMO!

 

[Snapshot9]

Well ...

You have to ask yourself the question, on that runout you missed, could you have won the game if you had a ball in hand earlier in the game.? If you answered 'Yes", then you know where you went wrong.

Play for the GAME, not the shot!! That means you play the percentages on the best way to win at any one point along the way. Those decisions, although, do depend on the skill level of your opponent also.

It is like playing Chess. Offense (aggressive) is great as long as it is going okay, but now and then you have to trap your opponent to get his Bishop or Queen to 'cut down' his offensive power. Same way in Pool, sometimes you have to safety an opponent to cut down their potential offensive power.

Even the very best players have a hard time kicking 2-3-4 rails and getting a good leave out of it, or maybe they don't shoot jump shots well. Maximize your odds. If you are going to run out, you have to KNOW you can run out, not just think you can.

1 good safety can turn the whole match around, and it plays with your opponents mind if he gives you BIH or sells out. Every good player can run out, that's basic, but things such as banking, kicking, jumping, and masse's are optional things in Pool, and often a weakness for some players that otherwise look to be very good.

I had to first buy a jump cue because I was getting beat with them, and later on, I had to learn to tighten up my safeties so my opponents could not be able to jump. You have to be good at all aspects of Pool, and knowing when to use what is part of it.

 

[Andrew Manning]

According to some, like Phil Capelle, running out down to the last one or two balls is the #1 sin of competitive eight ball player.

Better to play safe, until you sure to run out.

And this is exactly my point. I know Capelle and many others are totally correct about this; I see it over and over every Thursday. Trying to run out when you're not a favorite to make it all the way through is a recipe for losing against competent players.

But I want to be "sure to run out" more often than I actually AM "sure to run out". When I look at an open table with a good starting shot, I don't want to think "I know myself and I'm probably going to miss position on one of those balls on the rail." I'm more inclined to think "a good player is supposed to be able to get out from here, and if I want to be a good player, I need to learn to get out from here."

I'm not saying I don't play safeties. I play safe if I have real trouble situations (one of my balls doesn't have a pocket, and I don't have any obvious break-out opportunities), or also if my opponent gives me a table without a high-percentage shot I can start off with, or if I miss position and don't leave myself a high-percentage shot. I'm just saying I don't want to play safe if I can see a realistic runout in front of me. I don't want to decide the chances are too high I'm going to make some sort of blunder. I want to have confidence in my ability, and learn not to make those blunders, and eventually I will get out most of the time there's realistic out available.

-Andrew

 

[Billy_Bob]

With 8-ball, if I want to win for sure, I'll tie up pockets, block the 8, keep a blocking ball in place which is blocking my opponent's ball into the corner pocket, etc. Basically leave all my balls on the table causing trouble for my opponent.

Then I let them try to run out. But I say to myself "What are they going to do?" That 8 is blocked. Or that ball is blocked. Many times my opponent will be kind enough to clear all their balls out of my way except one. They will even fix some of my trouble balls for me. Then I have an easy runout.

However I was told by a better player that if I can runout, I should try to runout.

I have lost many games trying to runout, messing it up, and clearing most of my balls out of the way for my opponent. Then they runout.

I have won many games by; intentionally blocking the 8, selecting the group of balls at an open table which has one or more balls blocking something, intentionally blocking one of my opponent's balls, then letting my opponent shoot in most of his balls, but mess up on the last shot(s).

So I don't know? I keep thinking about if you can runout, try to. Also I saw an IPT tournament and they always seemed to try to runout. However they were playing on 9 ft. tables and there was more room and the balls more spread out than a bar table.

 

[Cornerman]

So basically I'm saying for my present skill level, I feel I have a choice between the best strategy for winning (clear up a problem or two and then duck) and the best strategy for improving (go for the runout, and as I gain experience and practice, I'll make it more and more often).

At this point, I've chosen to usually go for it and take my knocks now so I can learn to be a better player down the road.

Another excellent post, and one that really addresses a lot of the advice given on these boards about 8-ball and runout strategy.

IMO, there's no way you'll improve by not going for the runout when the runout is available. If you don't push your limits during game situations, then how can you know what your limits are and how to expand/improve those limits? And sometimes/often times, the table you are staring right now is the best shot at you winning with a runout. Leaving it to several innings with bumps and kisses only guarantees that you won't win or lose right now.

So, I'm with the philosophy of improvement by any means in league situations. That means run and gun when if there's a runout available. If there's no runout, I try my best to make a runout available. And sometimes, that means going right down to the end with troubled balls and clearing out the table.

Fred

 

[Cory in DC]

....[snip]...

Yet this is what I do all the time, and it's because I don't want to pass up on attempting to get out, when I know that it's within my ability. I feel like my runout percentage isn't going to go up unless I keep trying to run out, especially in pressure situations.

So basically I'm saying for my present skill level, I feel I have a choice between the best strategy for winning (clear up a problem or two and then duck) and the best strategy for improving (go for the runout, and as I gain experience and practice, I'll make it more and more often).

At this point, I've chosen to usually go for it and take my knocks now so I can learn to be a better player down the road. I don't play for money except on rare occasions, so I can afford to commit to improvement at the expense of winning percentage. Anyone have any conflicting or supporting viewpoints on my dilemma?

-Andrew

It sounds like you should be much more aggressive early in the runs about getting breakouts. If you can't get a wide open table on your first 2-3 shots (meaning the runout looks unlikely), then it's time to punt, while you've still got 4-5 balls on the table. So the key is to open up a runout opportunity earlier.

In other words, Path One is to run 5 balls, and then get the correct angle on the 6th ball for a natural breakout on your 7th ball (the trouble ball); of course, the wrong angle on the 6th ball is a nearly certain loss. Path Two involves more difficult shots in the first two shots, but might break out the 7th ball (e.g., with a full table draw or follow shot) on one of those two shots.

Well, we'd all like to play perfect shape and follow the more elegant Path One. But playing Path Two might be smarter: if you get the break-out then the run is easy; if you don't then you've still got five balls to hide behind.

Cory

 

[supergreenman]

And this is exactly my point. I know Capelle and many others are totally correct about this; I see it over and over every Thursday. Trying to run out when you're not a favorite to make it all the way through is a recipe for losing against competent players.

But I want to be "sure to run out" more often than I actually AM "sure to run out". When I look at an open table with a good starting shot, I don't want to think "I know myself and I'm probably going to miss position on one of those balls on the rail." I'm more inclined to think "a good player is supposed to be able to get out from here, and if I want to be a good player, I need to learn to get out from here."

I'm not saying I don't play safeties. I play safe if I have real trouble situations (one of my balls doesn't have a pocket, and I don't have any obvious break-out opportunities), or also if my opponent gives me a table without a high-percentage shot I can start off with, or if I miss position and don't leave myself a high-percentage shot. I'm just saying I don't want to play safe if I can see a realistic runout in front of me. I don't want to decide the chances are too high I'm going to make some sort of blunder. I want to have confidence in my ability, and learn not to make those blunders, and eventually I will get out most of the time there's realistic out available.

-Andrew

I think you have the right idea, if the table is runable, you should plan the run out then go for it.

You should be evaluating halfway through the run if you've still got the position to run out though, if you've missed your pattern and are having to make recovery shots that may or may not land you back into a pattern that you can run out from this is the time where you should also be looking for a place to lock up.

If you're down to 3 balls and are on a recovery shot, you aren't going to learn anything by being stubborn and trying to continue your run.

If you're still on your pattern or still have a table that will land you on the 8 don't get shy because of a difficult shot.

 

[42NateBaller]

I agree

I agree with trying to run-out, but I look for opportunities within my skill. I'm bouncing between a 6 and 7 in APA. So, I break, then assess the table. If I can break-out or get to my most difficult shots within my first two shots at open balls, then I'll try the run-out. Otherwise, it's time to duck and cover.

 

[jsp]

...running out down to the last one or two balls is the #1 sin of competitive eight ball player.

Just like what they taught me in Catholic school, the gravity of a sin depends on the person's state of mind when committing the sin.

Yes, it is a sin to run out down to the last one or two balls in 8ball, but what distinguishes it from being a "mortal" (very grave) sin or a "venial" (less grave) sin depends on what you were thinking before you attempted the run.

It would be a mortal sin if you knew you had very little to no chance of completing the run, due to many problem balls or clusters, yet you decided to attempt the run out anyway. It would be only a venial sin if you knew you had an excellent chance of running out, but you failed to complete your run due to positioning or shotmaking errors.

In competition, venial sins will happen, but you definitely can limit the number mortal sins you commit.

Enough of my theological banter. Anyways, I agree with Fred on this one. If you don't mind losing in competition, then you should try to "stretch your legs" and attempt fairly risky runouts, especially in practice. It would not only improve your 8ball game in the long run, but it'll give you a better gauge of your runout probability for certain table layouts when you really do care about winning.

Now, I absolve you from your sins, say a good act of contrition, and go in peace.

 

[hustlefinger]

I'm just saying I don't want to play safe if I can see a realistic runout in front of me. I don't want to decide the chances are too high I'm going to make some sort of blunder. I want to have confidence in my ability, and learn not to make those blunders, and eventually I will get out most of the time there's realistic out available.

Imo, this IS correct thinking and what you should do, or try to do. There is a time to duck and a time to run out, clearly you understand that. If given a realistic chance to run out and win, then do it. The way you do it IS a learning process. I believe there is a correct shot for every situation, and although finding and/or knowing what it is – is the difficult part.

Shot execution maybe another matter. But if you believe in your ability to run out - but fail to execute, at least you’ll know your thinking wasn’t faulty.

Rick

 

[VIProfessor]

An excellent topic. I learned the hard way that when you are in competitive situations, you are playing to win. This means that your decision regarding whether to run out or to duck must be based on a REALISTIC assessment of the odds that you will run out from where you're at. If you are losing too many games as the results of failed run outs, then obviously your assessment has been faulty. Further, excellence in pool requires that you play within YOUR capabilities and in accordance the conditions that YOU are facing at any given time. Granted, we see the pros play runout, runout, runout when they play 8-ball, but they are the best in the world, and they're playing on 9-foot tables where there's more room to maneuver. 8-ball on a 7-foot table is an infinitely more defensive game simply because the congestion makes runouts much more difficult.

Finally, pool is about much more than putting balls into pockets one after the other. Other skills, such as safety play, adjusting to the equipment, managing the table, and outmoving your opponent are all part of "being good".

If you want to improve your runout ability, work on it in practice and friendly games. In competitive situations, however, particularly in league play where you have a responsibility to your teammates as well as yourself, I would strongly advise you to play the percentages and play to win.

 

[Andrew Manning]

It sounds like you should be much more aggressive early in the runs about getting breakouts. If you can't get a wide open table on your first 2-3 shots (meaning the runout looks unlikely), then it's time to punt, while you've still got 4-5 balls on the table. So the key is to open up a runout opportunity earlier.

In other words, Path One is to run 5 balls, and then get the correct angle on the 6th ball for a natural breakout on your 7th ball (the trouble ball); of course, the wrong angle on the 6th ball is a nearly certain loss. Path Two involves more difficult shots in the first two shots, but might break out the 7th ball (e.g., with a full table draw or follow shot) on one of those two shots.

Well, we'd all like to play perfect shape and follow the more elegant Path One. But playing Path Two might be smarter: if you get the break-out then the run is easy; if you don't then you've still got five balls to hide behind.

Cory

I respect your knowledge, Cory, but I think you've misdiagnosed my problem because you haven't seen me play enough 8-ball. Clearing up trouble early is my biggest strength in most of my matches. My all-too common downfall is I go right to the trouble, clear it up, and then mess up the "easy part" of the run-out badly (miss a shot or hook myself) because I haven't learned to keep it together for the whole 9 yards.

My dilemma is that if I count on making that mistake which I always seem to make, I could account for it and duck, hoping for a shorter runout later in the game. But I don't want to do that, because a good player shouldn't have to; a good player should have confidence that they'll make the easy out.

-Andrew

 

[VIProfessor]

I respect your knowledge, Cory, but I think you've misdiagnosed my problem because you haven't seen me play enough 8-ball. Clearing up trouble early is my biggest strength in most of my matches. My all-too common downfall is I go right to the trouble, clear it up, and then mess up the "easy part" of the run-out badly (miss a shot or hook myself) because I haven't learned to keep it together for the whole 9 yards.

My dilemma is that if I count on making that mistake which I always seem to make, I could account for it and duck, hoping for a shorter runout later in the game. But I don't want to do that, because a good player shouldn't have to; a good player should have confidence that they'll make the easy out.

-Andrew

OK Andrew,

In that case, I also misunderstood the situation. Based on what you're saying, just keep working on your patterns and position, and maybe (although once again I haven't seen you play) tighten up your pre-shot routine, and you'll find yourself completing a higher percentage of your ronouts.

Good luck!

P.S.--I'll send you an email on the other matter this evening.

 

[ScottW]

I do this myself all too often. See the runout, get down close, but then pooch a critical leave near the end, and hook myself. That, or have a problem ball, and keep trying to get it out, sinking most of my balls trying to do so, and ending up still with the problem. And I'm a strong APA 6 (I've got some locals kvetching about "why isn't he a 7" of late )

 

[whitewolf]

Here's an interesting quandary I've been up against:

I play in an APA 8-ball league as an SL6. As far as I've been able to ascertain, SL6 is an accurate rating of my average speed (although when I'm really in stroke, I'd like to think I play considerably better than most 6's). So it means if I break and make a ball and have a reasonably open table, I have a chance to get out, i.e. all the shots I'll need to get out (including break-outs, problem balls, etc.) are things I can execute successfully most of the time.

Put those 7 or so shots together, however, and me making it all the way through without a mistake that ends my runout or puts it in serious jeopardy becomes a pretty risky proposition.

So I know in 8-ball the worst strategical blunder is clearing up most of the table and then missing. Yet this is what I do all the time, and it's because I don't want to pass up on attempting to get out, when I know that it's within my ability. I feel like my runout percentage isn't going to go up unless I keep trying to run out, especially in pressure situations.

So basically I'm saying for my present skill level, I feel I have a choice between the best strategy for winning (clear up a problem or two and then duck) and the best strategy for improving (go for the runout, and as I gain experience and practice, I'll make it more and more often).

At this point, I've chosen to usually go for it and take my knocks now so I can learn to be a better player down the road. I don't play for money except on rare occasions, so I can afford to commit to improvement at the expense of winning percentage. Anyone have any conflicting or supporting viewpoints on my dilemma?

-Andrew

It may be good to run and gun, and then look for how to make this possible, but this could be dangerous. Like a dog who chases cars never being able to break the habit. Your mindset could be run and gun and if you are unable to step back and play the safe side of 8 ball every once in a while, then you are limiting yourself.

You must have a balanced mind when you step up to the table.

I used to be a very good chess player. At first I would think offensively, but before I 'pulled the trigger' I made myself look at the board defensively: i.e. what can my opponent do to me? Notice the word 'made'.

Balanced mind - you need to get so good at defense that you don't miss any opportunities there either. You have to ask yourself the question: how can I play defense at a high level if I am only thinking offensive all the time?

Personally, I like to play defense just for the hell of it. Pretend you are Marque deSade and that you want to watch your opponent struggle a little before you crush him. I learned this in the bars as I used to win free beers all night long. Trust me, it is a REAL ART to playing defense and letting your opponent getting his trash off the table. I mean a REAL ART because you are making it 'look good' - a skill that needs to be developed, even if you aren't a gambler. i.e. you want them to underrate you because they will be taking the gamble thinking you can't run out and that you are stupid. Don't overlook it. Try to think of it as the ultimate in creativity.

 

[tedkaufman]

Really a lot of good advice here. Most of the things I was thinking to offer have already been said. But here's one more:

I'm a very offensive minded player, so I strongly agree with those who've said you should attempt the runout. BUT, you MUST eliminate your problem balls early. If you attempt a breakout, and it is unsuccessful, you must be honest enough with yourself to accept abandoning the runout and begin looking for a way to duck. On that thought, if all the balls are open, and you've decided to run out, but you miss position on a critical ball in your pattern, you have to be honest with yourself assessing your chances of getting back in line. Very often the moment you miss that critical position it's time to think defense. In both cases, clinging too long to the notion of running out interfers with recognizing the better option of defense.

Another thing that really helps with 8-ball patterns is something I take from straight pool. If I have a ball that can only be made from a very difficult position or precise position play, I'll play for a back-up shot that I can play if I don't get just right. Sometimes this gives me a second chance to get on the tough ball and saves runs I might otherwise have to abandon.

 

[VIProfessor]

Really a lot of good advice here. Most of the things I was thinking to offer have already been said. But here's one more:

I'm a very offensive minded player, so I strongly agree with those who've said you should attempt the runout. BUT, you MUST eliminate your problem balls early. If you attempt a breakout, and it is unsuccessful, you must be honest enough with yourself to accept abandoning the runout and begin looking for a way to duck. On that thought, if all the balls are open, and you've decided to run out, but you miss position on a critical ball in your pattern, you have to be honest with yourself assessing your chances of getting back in line. Very often the moment you miss that critical position it's time to think defense. In both cases, clinging too long to the notion of running out interfers with recognizing the better option of defense.

Another thing that really helps with 8-ball patterns is something I take from straight pool. If I have a ball that can only be made from a very difficult position or precise position play, I'll play for a back-up shot that I can play if I don't get just right. Sometimes this gives me a second chance to get on the tough ball and saves runs I might otherwise have to abandon.

This brings us to another point--the value of straight pool to improvement in all the games. Trust me guys, if you want to improve your overall game, start spending some time with straight pool. If you learn to play this game, I can practically guarantee you that the knowledge, the control, and the concentration that you develop playing straights will bring about significant improvement in your ability to play all the other games.