Wood pins ?
- Thread starter Fish
- Start date
Fish said:Why is it that Carom cues have wood pins in the shaft ?
Would woodpins be "better" if used in a Pool cue ?
here's good information for question 1: http://www.caromcues.com/
not sure about question 2, but i use one. i'm not a great player and i don't make cues, just my thoughts.
would like to see what other players and cue makers think.
-n_den
Fish said:Why is it that Carom cues have wood pins in the shaft ?
Would wood
Answer to question #1: ask Dieckman www.cuemaker.com cuebuilder of both carom and pool cues with wooden pin, since 1973.
Question #2: I use a Todd Elkins ( Parrot Cue) woooden pin carom cue. Playing both carom and pool. I believe Helmstetter made a wooden pin pool cue.
Karella Wood Pin
I have and use all 3 models of Karella cues with the wood pin. Mostly I use the #1. It is a good ice breaker at strange pool rooms. They come up on Ebay once in awhile. Keep looking there for a good deal. The retail on them is way too much in my opinion, but they can be had at a great discount on Ebay. I got all 3 of mine for less than $200 shipped. I think the #3 is $288 on some places like Billiard Warehouse.
I have and use all 3 models of Karella cues with the wood pin. Mostly I use the #1. It is a good ice breaker at strange pool rooms. They come up on Ebay once in awhile. Keep looking there for a good deal. The retail on them is way too much in my opinion, but they can be had at a great discount on Ebay. I got all 3 of mine for less than $200 shipped. I think the #3 is $288 on some places like Billiard Warehouse.
Karella Link
The model 3's are KF-1, KF-2, KF-3. http://www.billiardwarehouse.com/cues/karella/karella.htm
The model 3's are KF-1, KF-2, KF-3. http://www.billiardwarehouse.com/cues/karella/karella.htm
Karella Cues
I like them, but I'm not good enough to really give a review. The KF-2 plays the best of the three, not just my opinion but 2 other guys also said so. I'd guess it is just the shaft but haven't switched butts to try that theory out. The balance is further back toward the grip than most of my other cues. I use the KF-1 most of the time and switch to my Mali with a 324 Predator shaft if I know I'm playing 9-ball. If either cue leaves the pool hall without me, I'm not out a lot of bucks, LOL.
Edit= I forgot to mention that the day shift guy who works at Star Billiards in Little Ferry, NJ told me he busted one wood pin carom tapered house cue breaking a 9-ball rack. He is a good B+ player and usually trashes me big time when we play. I can't get him to go out and play some tournaments, though.
I like them, but I'm not good enough to really give a review. The KF-2 plays the best of the three, not just my opinion but 2 other guys also said so. I'd guess it is just the shaft but haven't switched butts to try that theory out. The balance is further back toward the grip than most of my other cues. I use the KF-1 most of the time and switch to my Mali with a 324 Predator shaft if I know I'm playing 9-ball. If either cue leaves the pool hall without me, I'm not out a lot of bucks, LOL.
Edit= I forgot to mention that the day shift guy who works at Star Billiards in Little Ferry, NJ told me he busted one wood pin carom tapered house cue breaking a 9-ball rack. He is a good B+ player and usually trashes me big time when we play. I can't get him to go out and play some tournaments, though.
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Karella Cues
They are not bad for cues that were manufactured in Taiwan. Very good hitting wood to wood joint. Production was stopped for several years and is starting back up again. However, this time they are going to be made here in the US. At least this is what I've managed to find out from Competition Sports during a conversation I had with them several weeks ago.
On a different note, they are discontinuing the Adams and Helmstetter lines. According to Competition Sports, quality has fallen off during the last several years and they are not satisfied with the way things are going for those two line. Japan will still produce it's Musashi line as well as other Adam cues under the name Adam Japan. The Adam and Helmstetter lines will mostly likely be merged into the Karella line here in the US. The new line will allow for custom orders.
This is what I know so far. I'f interested, I will keep every posted on any new developments that I hear about.
Taiko
They are not bad for cues that were manufactured in Taiwan. Very good hitting wood to wood joint. Production was stopped for several years and is starting back up again. However, this time they are going to be made here in the US. At least this is what I've managed to find out from Competition Sports during a conversation I had with them several weeks ago.
On a different note, they are discontinuing the Adams and Helmstetter lines. According to Competition Sports, quality has fallen off during the last several years and they are not satisfied with the way things are going for those two line. Japan will still produce it's Musashi line as well as other Adam cues under the name Adam Japan. The Adam and Helmstetter lines will mostly likely be merged into the Karella line here in the US. The new line will allow for custom orders.
This is what I know so far. I'f interested, I will keep every posted on any new developments that I hear about.
Taiko
I've been playing with wood pins for the last 5 years.billiardshot said:
Here's my take on why they're better.
In my opinion a joint should be designed so that there is as little loss as possible in the feel of the hit vs a one piece cue. Jointed cues are made only to make them easier to store and carry. Anytime you cut something like this, it's impossible to get the feel back. But a wood screw threaded into wood, with a wood facing is a close as you can get to reconstructing the one piece feel. As far as why the pin is in the shaft vs the butt? It's beeen shown that it's simply a stronger design being in the shaft. I take this philosophy to my other favorite sport - Fishing. All my rods are one piece, no joints. If you look at the joints of HIGH quality fishing rods youl'll see that none of them are metal. They taper the male end to fit precisely into the female section and all contact surfaces are of the same material. The hit of a fish is more easily transmitted to the hand with this design and you can tell a leaf from a rock from a fish. It's very hard to do with a metal joint.
I don't play much pool but based on the above comments I feel there's no doubt this joint design would give you a better feel of the hit. But keep in mind that all of this kind of stuff is personal preference. If you sign off on my reasoning go buy a wood pin. If you want other opinions go ask the pros. Some of them may have experience with this and can help with your decision. The best thing to do is find a pool hall that sells wood pin joints as well as the others and give them a try. Or better yet go ask Dieckman. He'll reluctantly put a metal pin in the butt if you insist.
Dieckman holds very tight tolerances and is the best joint I've had the pleasure to hit with.
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As a cuemaker I found the following reasons not to build a cue with a wood pin:3kushn said:
Wood is weak compared to metal.
Wood expands and contracts with moisture
A much larger pin must be made to compensate for the wood's weakness resulting in a very thin shoulder around the female part. This makes a very weak joint.
A wood pin is ugly.
Wood pins do not increase feedback between the shaft and butt.
Wood pins are very difficult to make properly. If improperly made they would not make a good connection.
I must be right because I only know of one cuemaker who makes them. If they were good many cuemakers would make them.
I agree with much of what you say here but want to make a couple of comments. Even though I'm not exqerienced in building cues I have some knowledge in mechanical joint designs, mostly from selling fasteners and torque tools.Arnot Wadsworth said:
Wood is weaker than steel. Read the link below. Tensile strength is what needs to be considered not compression or shear strength.
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/eng99/eng99345.htm
Even if we both don't want to believe that some woods have higher tensile strengths than some metals, I think we can agree that stronger is not always better.
I totally agree that wood expands and contracts and that there is a trade off in with regards to fit.
Yes the wall thickness of the female thread is thinner but I'm guessing that if the two faces of the parts are machined accurately and mate properly the strength of the joint comes from here not the screw. I've seen dozens of metal jointed butt ends that have broke but never a wood pin design. Again look at the link discussing tensile, compression, and shear strength. It's my suspicion that when a cue breaks, it's operator error. The joint was loose.
Wood is beautiful and is why most cues are made of wood. I simply admire the craftmanship in making a precision wood thread. Very difficult.
I can't tell you for certain if there is better feedback with wood vs metal but if you look at soundproofing one of the techniques incorporated is the use of dissimilar materials because every material has a different resonance frequency thus the sound waves are broken up and not transmitted.
Yes wood is very difficult to cut and very time consuming. I think this is why most cue joints are metal. It just takes way too long and there's probably more rejects in production adding to business costs.
You're right, there aren't many cue makers in this country that use wood pins. I know of 4 or 5. Then there's Helmstetter, Longoni, Hanbat and many others from Europe, Asia and Japan.
Finally If wood pin joint design is inferior then why is it that virtually all World Class 3 Cushion players use wood pin cues. And if this design is weaker then why is it that they aren't breaking. After all Carom balls are much larger than pool balls, and the average power exerted is much higher than playing pool. Imagine being in the World Championship match and Ceulemans cue breaks. If anything like this would have ever happened in the past, don't you think these players would be using a cue with a "stronger" joint design?
100% agree with 3kushn. To add - most carom cue are natural weighted and balance with wood only! Except for a possible metal screw in the bumper on a few.
Wood Pins vs. Metal Pins
Your background and experience as a salesman is not relevent to cuemaking. I hope you do not confuse anyone with your lack of knowledge of cuemaking.
.
Your link does not work for me.
There are three typical definitions of tensile strength:
Yield Strength - The stress a material can withstand without permanent deformation.
Ultimate Strength - The maximum stress a material can withstand.
Breaking Strength - The stress coordinate on the Stress-strain curve at the point of rupture.
Metal has much higher tensile strentth than wood.
One of the best reasons to use steel joint pins.
I found many years ago that what I guessed or thought about something was not always correct. I have built thousands of cues and I can promise you that the wall thickness of the joint is very important. The thicker the wall - the stronger the joint. Joint collars also help in this area but there is no substitute for the wood supporting the collar.
I have found that in almost all cases when any cue breaks at the joint it was because of abuse. You should remember that high dollar fine cues are usually appreciated more because of their cost than low dollar basic cues. All of the three cussion players that I know have great respect for their cues and treat them with tender loving care. If they didn't they would all be broken at the joint.
Not all wood is beautiful in my opinion. The reason most cues are made of wood is that wood plays better then aluminum, graphite or other synthetic material. I know that metal is a better pin material than wood. Being difficult never stopped any cuemaker I know of except those that quit.
I learned a long time ago that anytime someone tells me that they are not trying to tell me something that they are going to tell me something with the next breath. You are just trying to cloak your argument with information that is not relevent. The pin whether it is wood or metal does not make contact with the shaft at the end of the screw. The sound is transmitted through the joint faces (end grain) and they are usually wood or wood/phenolic regardless of the pin.
No cuemaker that I know of and I know plenty of them personally, would refuse to make their cues better by using a wood joint if it in any way enhanced a cues playability or durability. Cuemakers are not bothered by things going wrong in the cuemaking process - we all throw away cue parts and cues frequently - it is just the price of being a cuemakers. If we were worried about that we would all quit. Cuemaking is not for the weak hearted.
Would you care to list the 4 or 5. I only know of one. Also, all the snooker cues I have ever seen utilize a steel pin. Most of these cues are made in Europe and Asia. Those cuemakers that are still using wood pins in their cues are bowing to the 3 Cushion Player Market which is a very small portion of the billiard we all know today. Three Cushion Players are very reluctant to change.
I know that most Three Cushion Players are reluctant to try anything new.
Three cushion cues are shorter than pool cues. They have larger diameters at the joint than pool cues (thus stronger) and have a conical taper instead of a pro taper that is stronger than pool cues. They certainly do not undergo the stress of a pool cue that is "breaking the balls" and often times having the player fall on top of the cue as he loses his balance. I had one of my cues come in for repair the other day that the player had tried to break the cue over his knee. The pin bent but the wood did not break or crack. It was repaired in about 30 minutes. If it had been a wood pin the shaft would have split and the pin would have broken off.
You should acquire a billiards cue with a metal screw and put it to the test as I have done. They play just as good and are much more durable because metal screws have long ago made wood screws outdated.
You might be surprised to find that many 3C billiard cues have a metal pin.
Just my opinion.
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I agree with much of what you say here but want to make a couple of comments. Even though I'm not exqerienced in building cues I have some knowledge in mechanical joint designs, mostly from selling fasteners and torque tools.Your background and experience as a salesman is not relevent to cuemaking. I hope you do not confuse anyone with your lack of knowledge of cuemaking.
Code:
Wood is weaker than steel. Read the link below. Tensile strength is what needs to be considered not compression or shear strength.
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasc...9/eng99345.htm
Even if we both don't want to believe that some woods have higher tensile strengths than some metals, I think we can agree that stronger is not always betterYour link does not work for me.
There are three typical definitions of tensile strength:
Yield Strength - The stress a material can withstand without permanent deformation.
Ultimate Strength - The maximum stress a material can withstand.
Breaking Strength - The stress coordinate on the Stress-strain curve at the point of rupture.
Metal has much higher tensile strentth than wood.
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I totally agree that wood expands and contracts and that there is a trade off in with regards to fit.One of the best reasons to use steel joint pins.
Code:
Yes the wall thickness of the female thread is thinner but I'm guessing that if the two faces of the parts are machined accurately and mate properly the strength of the joint comes from here not the screw. I've seen dozens of metal jointed butt ends that have broke but never a wood pin design. Again look at the link discussing tensile, compression, and shear strength. It's my suspicion that when a cue breaks, it's operator error. The joint was loose.I found many years ago that what I guessed or thought about something was not always correct. I have built thousands of cues and I can promise you that the wall thickness of the joint is very important. The thicker the wall - the stronger the joint. Joint collars also help in this area but there is no substitute for the wood supporting the collar.
I have found that in almost all cases when any cue breaks at the joint it was because of abuse. You should remember that high dollar fine cues are usually appreciated more because of their cost than low dollar basic cues. All of the three cussion players that I know have great respect for their cues and treat them with tender loving care. If they didn't they would all be broken at the joint.
Code:
Wood is beautiful and is why most cues are made of wood. I simply admire the craftmanship in making a precision wood thread. Very difficult.Not all wood is beautiful in my opinion. The reason most cues are made of wood is that wood plays better then aluminum, graphite or other synthetic material. I know that metal is a better pin material than wood. Being difficult never stopped any cuemaker I know of except those that quit.
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I can't tell you for certain if there is better feedback with wood vs metal but if you look at soundproofing one of the techniques incorporated is the use of dissimilar materials because every material has a different resonance frequency thus the sound waves are broken up and not transmitted.I learned a long time ago that anytime someone tells me that they are not trying to tell me something that they are going to tell me something with the next breath.
You are just trying to cloak your argument with information that is not relevent. The pin whether it is wood or metal does not make contact with the shaft at the end of the screw. The sound is transmitted through the joint faces (end grain) and they are usually wood or wood/phenolic regardless of the pin.
Code:
Yes wood is very difficult to cut and very time consuming. I think this is why most cue joints are metal. It just takes way too long and there's probably more rejects in production adding to business costs.No cuemaker that I know of and I know plenty of them personally, would refuse to make their cues better by using a wood joint if it in any way enhanced a cues playability or durability. Cuemakers are not bothered by things going wrong in the cuemaking process - we all throw away cue parts and cues frequently - it is just the price of being a cuemakers. If we were worried about that we would all quit. Cuemaking is not for the weak hearted.
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You're right, there aren't many cue makers in this country that use wood pins. I know of 4 or 5. Then there's Helmstetter, Longoni, Hanbat and many others from Europe, Asia and Japan.Would you care to list the 4 or 5. I only know of one. Also, all the snooker cues I have ever seen utilize a steel pin. Most of these cues are made in Europe and Asia. Those cuemakers that are still using wood pins in their cues are bowing to the 3 Cushion Player Market which is a very small portion of the billiard we all know today. Three Cushion Players are very reluctant to change.
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Finally If wood pin joint design is inferior then why is it that virtually all World Class 3 Cushion players use wood pin cues. And if this design is weaker then why is it that they aren't breaking. After all Carom balls are much larger than pool balls, and the average power exerted is much higher than playing pool. Imagine being in the World Championship match and Ceulemans cue breaks. If anything like this would have ever happened in the past, don't you think these players would be using a cue with a "stronger" joint design?I know that most Three Cushion Players are reluctant to try anything new.
Three cushion cues are shorter than pool cues. They have larger diameters at the joint than pool cues (thus stronger) and have a conical taper instead of a pro taper that is stronger than pool cues. They certainly do not undergo the stress of a pool cue that is "breaking the balls" and often times having the player fall on top of the cue as he loses his balance. I had one of my cues come in for repair the other day that the player had tried to break the cue over his knee. The pin bent but the wood did not break or crack. It was repaired in about 30 minutes. If it had been a wood pin the shaft would have split and the pin would have broken off.
You should acquire a billiards cue with a metal screw and put it to the test as I have done. They play just as good and are much more durable because metal screws have long ago made wood screws outdated.
You might be surprised to find that many 3C billiard cues have a metal pin.
Just my opinion.
You should acquire a billiards cue with a metal screw and put it to the test as I have done. They play just as good and are much more durable because metal screws have long ago made wood screws outdated.
You might be surprised to find that many 3C billiard cues have a metal pin.
True dat.
Schuler cues can attest to that.
Frankly, I think they're missing out. If they want a tight fit and doesn't impede the reasonance of their cues, they ought to try titanium or aluminum radial pins.
You might be surprised to find that many 3C billiard cues have a metal pin.
True dat.
Schuler cues can attest to that.
Frankly, I think they're missing out. If they want a tight fit and doesn't impede the reasonance of their cues, they ought to try titanium or aluminum radial pins.
I can't tell you for certain if there is better feedback with wood vs metal but if you look at soundproofing one of the techniques incorporated is the use of dissimilar materials because every material has a different resonance frequency thus the sound waves are broken up and not transmitted.
If you take the Pepsi challeng, you'd lose. You wouldn't be able to tell a jointed cue if it has a wood pin or a good tight metal pin.
Yes wood is very difficult to cut and very time consuming. I think this is why most cue joints are metal. It just takes way too long and there's probably more rejects in production adding to business costs.You're right, there aren't many cue makers in this country that use wood pins. I know of 4 or 5. Then there's Helmstetter, Longoni, Hanbat and many others from Europe, Asia and Japan.
http://woodcraft.com/images/Family/web792.jpg
It's not that hard. It's cheaper in some instances to have wood pins. Radial pins aren't cheap. Neither are Uni Loc qck release pins. It's much cheaper for a production cue manufacturer to just tap the hole on the shaft and use the pictured jig to thread the end of a shaft.
Finally If wood pin joint design is inferior then why is it that virtually all World Class 3 Cushion players use wood pin cues. And if this design is weaker then why is it that they aren't breaking. After all Carom balls are much larger than pool balls, and the average power exerted is much higher than playing pool. Imagine being in the World Championship match and Ceulemans cue breaks. If anything like this would have ever happened in the past, don't you think these players would be using a cue with a "stronger" joint design?
They are traditionalists.
If you take the Pepsi challeng, you'd lose. You wouldn't be able to tell a jointed cue if it has a wood pin or a good tight metal pin.
Yes wood is very difficult to cut and very time consuming. I think this is why most cue joints are metal. It just takes way too long and there's probably more rejects in production adding to business costs.You're right, there aren't many cue makers in this country that use wood pins. I know of 4 or 5. Then there's Helmstetter, Longoni, Hanbat and many others from Europe, Asia and Japan.
http://woodcraft.com/images/Family/web792.jpg
It's not that hard. It's cheaper in some instances to have wood pins. Radial pins aren't cheap. Neither are Uni Loc qck release pins. It's much cheaper for a production cue manufacturer to just tap the hole on the shaft and use the pictured jig to thread the end of a shaft.
Finally If wood pin joint design is inferior then why is it that virtually all World Class 3 Cushion players use wood pin cues. And if this design is weaker then why is it that they aren't breaking. After all Carom balls are much larger than pool balls, and the average power exerted is much higher than playing pool. Imagine being in the World Championship match and Ceulemans cue breaks. If anything like this would have ever happened in the past, don't you think these players would be using a cue with a "stronger" joint design?
They are traditionalists.