Wood vs carbon fiber shafts for top pros - I went through the Fargo top 100 to see who uses what
- Thread starter kingwang
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The main reasons for wood (imo) is superior feel/feedback & theres quite a few LD wood shafts out there that definitely have lower squirt than the top tier cf shafts.
(speaking from experience, trust I own alot of them)
If not for any of the above reasons to choose wood , it could just be preference & familiarity .
Cf shafts primary benefits is no warpage & more ding/ dent resistant.
The feel/feedback difference alone, make it so Im not even slightly suprised nearly half of the worlds top tier players choose wood over cf.
(speaking from experience, trust I own alot of them)
If not for any of the above reasons to choose wood , it could just be preference & familiarity .
Cf shafts primary benefits is no warpage & more ding/ dent resistant.
The feel/feedback difference alone, make it so Im not even slightly suprised nearly half of the worlds top tier players choose wood over cf.
Must be really bored
Soon it’ll be zero once everyone realizes what a gimmick it is
Injection molding is for thermoplastics, which are basically melted into a form. For CF parts, the CF (filament or cloth) is contained in a resin, so it would be mixed like resin for fiberglass parts (fiberglass 'cloth' + resin).
I could not find a video specific to cue shafts, but there is at least one video online for CF driveshafts. The mixed resin is applied to the CF filament as it is (in this case, spiral) wrapped around a form. If cues are similar, then they still take a lot of work, but I would think more than simply turning a shaft, and less than making a laminated shaft--and without having to deal with the variation in pieces of wood, I would *guess* that CF shafts can still be mass-produced at a greater rate.
billiards_watch
Well-known member
Yes it has to be wrapped on a "form template" and mixed with some sort of resin/epoxy material.
I had carbon fiber hood and trunk for my little racing BMW for weight. It's shaped exactly like the real hood and trunk. You can sort of see how they may have laid the CF cloth over the real parts to form its shape. It was done so well it looked like it came from the factory except for that shiny gloss that CF produces.
To be more specific these are carbon shafts in the pool industry and not carbon fiber shafts. I think we should finally call it for what it is.
According to the driveshaft video, the "form template" is a "mandrel".
Fiberglass and CF car *body* parts are usually made from a mold, and the mold is made from the original parts. So, the final parts match the originals as exactly as possible. If the parts were build over the original, then they would be larger, and not fit.
And, are you saying the carbon shafts are resin alone?
billiards_watch
Well-known member
I don't know what the heck they are or how they are made. LOLAccording to the driveshaft video, the "form template" is a "mandrel".
Fiberglass and CF car *body* parts are usually made from a mold, and the mold is made from the original parts. So, the final parts match the originals as exactly as possible. If the parts were build over the original, then they would be larger, and not fit.
And, are you saying the carbon shafts are resin alone?
It's not the interwoven fiber that people call it. Also, I wonder how much carbon material are actually in a shaft.
That is just one form of carbon fiber and really not typically a good form for use structurally, a woven carbon like that is mostly used for decorative purposes often on top of a more purposeful structural layup where the direction of carbon filaments are laid up in such a way as to provide the optimal performance for a given application.
This is really the big advantage of carbon fiber, being able to control how it's laid up to get specific characteristics from it.
Just because it doesn't have a woven top layer like that doesn't mean it isn't carbon fiber.
billiards_watch
Well-known member
Carbon. Same thing but we do need to distinguish the two because of different industry usages. I happen to be a car guy before the carbon shaft crazy boom. Suddenly nerdy pool players became carbon fiber experts and I get that it happens to late adapters and applicators of a product or material.
Funny you should mention that. I hit with a Healing jumper last night and it was the best jump cue I have ever used!! Clearing balls 6" away no sweat. Applying spin to the shot was easier than with my jumper.
14 mm shaft, 3 piece, probly so it'll fit in your case. Guy said he paid $100 beans for it on Temu.
Don't ask me what I paid for my diamond wood jumper that hits half as good.
I found the same jump cue on Amazon for $130. I'm not advocating go out and buy one. Just my personal take on the thing.
Not so sure on that. Some of the carbon fiber shafts use a resin soaked mat wrapped around a mandrel then sanded smooth. Some have chris crossed layers.
Some are spiral wound carbon thread. You can actually see the mat and the line where they sanded it smooth on some.
Not sure any are just carbon. Could be wrong though. They all seem to have there own process. I know that with the better arrow shafts, they will all be spiral wound as a uniform spine is so critical.
I guess after looking, there are two forms of shafts, carbon fiber with a resin, and then there are graphite shafts, which is a finally ground carbon powder mixed with resin. But yes there are carbon fiber shafts.
The CF driveshaft video shows the thread (what I had called "filament") being wound on the mandrel. I imagine it is similar for some shafts. I had not thought about how graphite cues were made, but makes sense....and graphite IS carbon, but I'm thinking maybe the older cues that were sold as graphite might have been solid, or maybe graphite over wood? --The current CF shafts differing, in being hollow (not counting foam fill).
CF shafts are either filament wound or flag-wrapped where sheets of woven CF tow are laid on a mandrel at various bias angles to get the desired stiffness. Filament wound is said to yield a somewhat higher quality tube but i seriously doubt anyone could tell two shafts apart based on construction method. Hi-end golf shafts are still made using both methods.
Flakeandrun
Well-known member
Yeah, loads. I mean, they've played on these tables for a long, long time. I saw a few cool photos recently of some 80s outdoor pool halls in rural areas. But these tables have been around for a long time. Not sure exactly. Maybe I can find out exactly.
Found this video of making a CF tube using a mat wrapped around a mandrel:
That's the flag-wrap method. LOTS of cf stuff is made using this basic method. The other way is filament-wound:
I wasn’t dunking on CF shafts. I’m not saying they are better or worse. I bought a cf shafts. I like them. I also like wood. I think I prefer the look and the sound of wood. I like the feel of carbon. But my game isn’t good enough to notice the difference in results on the table. Im not sure I can question those that claim a difference. But I believe the higher profit margin drives the hype as much as anything. Regardless of profit margin, some new tech in the game will move the needle on sales that would not have been captured otherwise. Despite any real of perceived technical advantages in CF I smell some clever marketing.
Zerksies
Well-known member
I'm using carbon and i am sure these $500 shaft makers are laughing all the way to the bank (i'm an idiot that payed that). I see carbon shaft tubes online dirt cheap all the time. They fill it with some foam put the ends on and done. This is being mass produced so they can get alot done and cheaply. Rhino is selling for $200 and I am sure they are making a hell of a profit. They have enough cash to do all this advertising.
In golf shafts, the variation of spine isn't important as the club is only gripped in one direction, whereas a pool cue, you never know what rotation you have. Golf shafts though, are all spine matched before the grips are installed so that the flex is always the same. It was the same for early arrow carbon fiber shafts also. We always spine tested them before fletching them to have a consistent fletch. Did it with wood, did it with aluminum, and did it with carbon.
As to pool shafts, not sure there is enough of a difference to matter with the current gen of shafts as you are seeing them made both ways, and as you mentioned, even the flag wrapped ones are mostly chris crossed layers to get around this.