World Professional Nineball Pool Corporation Unveiled

[FranCrimi]

The members of the WPA are continental confederations. The members of those continental bodies are national governing bodies.

The continental bodies, like the EPBF (Europe) are responsible for overseeing/running tournaments on their continent, including continental championships. The EPBF also organizes the Eurotour.

The national bodies are responsible for running national championships and creating sports development programs. A good example of the latter is Poland where pool is offered as a sport in high schools.

Going back to the origin of the WPA --- The WPA and it's Continental Federation members were formed in order to meet the criteria required to get pool into the Olympic Games. They did come fairly close at one point, but since then, they have come farther and farther away from that ever happening.

Since Olympic inclusion is highly unlikely at this point and the future, there needs to be a way to allow private tours to exist and still allow the players to continue to be part of the WPA and keep their eligibility for events like the World Games and Olympics.

Back when I was on the WPA executive board, the WPBA (Women's Professional Billiard Association in the U.S.) had an opportunity to expand globally and organize a few events in a few other countries. I was told in no uncertain terms by my fellow board members and WPA President Ian Anderson that I had to tell the WPBA absolutely not. They would not be allowed to expand internationally if they wanted to remain in the WPA grid.

I didn't agree with the WPA's position on this and fought hard against this and the WPA executive board voted to kick me off the executive board, so I was demoted. My opinion is that if they're not accomplishing their goal to bring pool to the Olympics, they need to become more flexible and let go of their stranglehold on the players.

However, having said this, I do believe that the WPA does serve a very good purpose in the global pool world, particularly by preventing con artist promoters and greedy and unfair tournament tactics from taking place. Therefore, I think it's imperative to find a way to work together.

Always remember that Matchroom has a history of picking and choosing who they want, because first and foremost, they're a TV production company. They will have to play things fair if they want to organize a legitimate tour. It's not a bad thing for the WPA to take a look at that.

 

[Swighey]

Always remember that Matchroom has a history of picking and choosing who they want, because first and foremost, they're a TV production company. They will have to play things fair if they want to organize a legitimate tour. It's not a bad thing for the WPA to take a look at that.

They certainly are, first and foremost, a TV production company or sponsor or promoter (depending on your exact definition of those two words). Barry Hearn said himself the he is an accountant first and foremost. He loves sport though and all that surrounds it, which kinda helps a bit.

Matchroom World Nineball Tour seems pretty legit to me. WPA should have taken a look at it when they were in the doldrums with 30k World Championships in aircraft hangars in Qatar and no world championships in some disciplines.

 

[kling&allen]

They certainly are, first and foremost, a TV production company or sponsor or promoter (depending on your exact definition of those two words). Barry Hearn said himself the he is an accountant first and foremost. He loves sport though and all that surrounds it, which kinda helps a bit.

Matchroom World Nineball Tour seems pretty legit to me. WPA should have taken a look at it when they were in the doldrums with 30k World Championships in aircraft hangars in Qatar and no world championships in some disciplines.

My (perhaps unfair) sense is that the WPA leaders hope to turn into some sort of FIFA, with all the attendant benefits.

 

[stewie]

Maybe I am hijacking this thread now, but as some already moved into discussing the WPA and continental/national federations:

In Europe you have the EPBF organizing the Euro Tour and Euro Championships and national federations like DBU (Germany) or PBA (Poland) organize national/regional leagues and tournaments.

Whose equivalent is the BCA, if any? Why are there no us-wide organized amateur events/leagues in the US? Seems like all events in the US are run by local or regional entities not affiliated with anything up to the WPA. There are APA and such, but they all have their own rules and private/business interests at heart. I still don't understand how some tournament organized by somebody is than called a "State Championship" in the US. If you would have similar organization as in Europe, you would have nationals run by the BCA and regional events and leagues run by the "New York" or "Georgia" - Billiards Federation. Was that ever tried in the US? I know, that in Europe all these federations are a prerequisite to have organized amateur sports and then feeding into the olympic idea -> you only get accepted as an olympic sport, if you have that kind of bottom-up organization.

 

[FranCrimi]

Maybe I am hijacking this thread now, but as some already moved into discussing the WPA and continental/national federations:

In Europe you have the EPBF organizing the Euro Tour and Euro Championships and national federations like DBU (Germany) or PBA (Poland) organize national/regional leagues and tournaments.

Whose equivalent is the BCA, if any? Why are there no us-wide organized amateur events/leagues in the US? Seems like all events in the US are run by local or regional entities not affiliated with anything up to the WPA. There are APA and such, but they all have their own rules and private/business interests at heart. I still don't understand how some tournament organized by somebody is than called a "State Championship" in the US. If you would have similar organization as in Europe, you would have nationals run by the BCA and regional events and leagues run by the "New York" or "Georgia" - Billiards Federation. Was that ever tried in the US? I know, that in Europe all these federations are a prerequisite to have organized amateur sports and then feeding into the olympic idea -> you only get accepted as an olympic sport, if you have that kind of bottom-up organization.

Well the U.S. is a little different from other countries in that it doesn't have government funding like other countries do. Government funding greatly affects the Continental federations. For example, in Europe The EPBF charges membership dues to each country, most of which get funding from their government's Olympic Committees, allowing them to pay dues to the EPBF in order to run a tour. I'm sure it's not the only source of funding that they have but I believe it's a big chunk of it.

The Asian countries also have government funding.

In the U.S., the BCA, although mainly a trade organization, agreed to lay out the WPA membership dues every year on order to keep the men's and women's organizations in the Olympic grid. The WPBA has always been the women's governing organization in the U.S. and the men's governing organizations have changed from time to time.

The BCA also represents Canada's interest in the WPA as well, since it represents the North American Continent. Canada also has its own governing board.

 

[stewie]

Well the U.S. is a little different from other countries in that it doesn't have government funding like other countries do. Government funding greatly affects the Continental federations. For example, in Europe The EPBF charges membership dues to each country, most of which get funding from their government's Olympic Committees, allowing them to pay dues to the EPBF in order to run a tour. I'm sure it's not the only source of funding that they have but I believe it's a big chunk of it.

The Asian countries also have government funding.

In the U.S., the BCA, although mainly a trade organization, agreed to lay out the WPA membership dues every year on order to keep the men's and women's organizations in the Olympic grid. The WPBA has always been the women's governing organization in the U.S. and the men's governing organizations have changed from time to time.

The BCA also represents Canada's interest in the WPA as well, since it represents the North American Continent. Canada also has its own governing board.

I get the government funding argument, to an extend. That's not the sleeping dog I wanted to wake. The funding is very handy in Europe for the elite of a sport. They have programs like stipends or even government jobs with enough time to enjoy professional conditions even in not so big sports, outside of all the major sports. You get to benefit from them, once you make it into a national (or state) rooster. And they fund coaches for these athletes.

The regular amateur in Germany signs up for a club and pays dues. The club is a member of a federation and pays its dues from its member fees and the federation is giving some of that to even the EPBF, I think. They might get some money from grants or tax relief to help them organize, like getting an office set up and so on.

I was just wondering if, in the US, nobody ever went further than just creating a "lobby group" and provide organization in form of rules and league system for amateurs. Triggering these things down from the WPA, maybe in form of BCA sanctioned nationals and regionals - tournaments or leagues. That void, I guess, opened the doors for all those entities I meant before.

 

[FranCrimi]

I get the government funding argument, to an extend. That's not the sleeping dog I wanted to wake. The funding is very handy in Europe for the elite of a sport. They have programs like stipends or even government jobs with enough time to enjoy professional conditions even in not so big sports, outside of all the major sports. You get to benefit from them, once you make it into a national (or state) rooster. And they fund coaches for these athletes.

The regular amateur in Germany signs up for a club and pays dues. The club is a member of a federation and pays its dues from its member fees and the federation is giving some of that to even the EPBF, I think. They might get some money from grants or tax relief to help them organize, like getting an office set up and so on.

I was just wondering if, in the US, nobody ever went further than just creating a "lobby group" and provide organization in form of rules and league system for amateurs. Triggering these things down from the WPA, maybe in form of BCA sanctioned nationals and regionals - tournaments or leagues. That void, I guess, opened the doors for all those entities I meant before.

Well, the WPBA has a long running pro tour for nearly 50 years. The men have also had their share of tours, although I don't know where things stand with their organizations at this point. The BCA used to have an annual pro event, both in 14.1 and 9 ball, with both men and women's divisions which ran for many years with fairly generous prize funds. The BCA did have a very successful long running amateur league that they sold and is still operating under the name BCAPL (PL standing for Pool League). The WPBA has had a regional tour system for many years. The problem has always been with the men professional players who can't seem to agree on how things should be run for them.

 

[tomatoshooter]

Back when I was on the WPA executive board, the WPBA (Women's Professional Billiard Association in the U.S.) had an opportunity to expand globally and organize a few events in a few other countries. I was told in no uncertain terms by my fellow board members and WPA President Ian Anderson that I had to tell the WPBA absolutely not. They would not be allowed to expand internationally if they wanted to remain in the WPA grid.

Unless there were already events in those other countries that the WPBA would be threatening, I don't see why they would object.

 

[Oze147]

This is strange news...last thing I heard was, that in 2024 European players will be forced to choose between EuroTour and MR Events...although I don't know if there has been an official EPBF statement yet.

 

[pwd72s]

A $1 million grand prize in pool?
Thats a stretch.
Not gonna happen.
But I hope they do well.

The way inflation is going? Yeah, could happen.

 

[sjm]

Here’s my open letter to the WPA…

Dear WPA,

Stay out of the way of Matchroom. Let them try what they are attempting. Don’t resist it. Don’t go into self preservation mode. Don’t attempt sanctions. Don’t apply restrictions. Coexist independently as best you can.

Sincerely
A pool fan

In at least one respect, WPA is in a gray area. On the one hand, Matchroom can bring a lot of attention to pool, and WPA will benefit from it. On the other hand, now that the major WPA sanctioned events (other than the World Pool Championship) are 10ball events, their wagon is hitched to the fringe game of 10ball of which few people are even aware. It seems, on the surface, that WPA doesn't even want to risk propping up demand for 9ball, as evidenced by their comical inclusion of 10ball in the recent WCBS Championships in Turkey. Invitations were based on 10ball rankings and, consequently, the men's field was unusually weak.

While WPA may be inclined to try to undermine 9ball, Matchroom has little to no incentive to undermine 10ball. This is the 9ball era, Matchroom is the biggest game in town, and there are now dozens of Matchroom ranking events worldwide, with more to come. Success in Matchroom events earns one some extra chances in the "zero-entry-fee, everyone cashes" Matchroom Invitationals (Premier League Pool, World Pool Masters, World Cup of Pool, Mosconi Cup), so there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow for those who perform at the highest level. Nobody other than Matchroom offers these kinds of opportunities for pool players worldwide.

WPA would be wise to let Matchroom do its thing, which will in turn escalate the profile of pro pool worldwide, thereby helping to popularize all pro pool events, not just those of Matchroom. I have my doubts that they are positioning themselves to do so.

 

[stewie]

This is strange news...last thing I heard was, that in 2024 European players will be forced to choose between EuroTour and MR Events...although I don't know if there has been an official EPBF statement yet.

the sad thing is: egos want to be pleased, nobody wants to look like somebody else does it better or be proven wrong or incapable.

The EuroTour is great, but in a weird spot. @FranCrimi said it before: All those organizations exist and tried to make pool olympic. The olympic games are by definition/aspiration amateur events. That's why in the soccer events you have U21 teams and not the real national teams of pros. That's also where Matchroom's statement comes from: we do pro events, you take care of the amateurs. So, what is the EuroTour? Is it for Amateurs and the Pros are just crashing the party? Will it be relegated to 2nd tier? Or amateurs only? Should it actually matter? The EuroTour is a great way to play against the best for many amateurs. They are not the only game in town anymore.

 

[MattPoland]

In my mind Matchroom and Predator are the commercial side of the industry and they don’t need the WPA to do what they do except maybe crown a world champion with a little extra official recognition. Beyond that the WPA only exists to me as the “win a medal” side of the industry. Matchroom calling them the “amateur” side of the sport is a bit snide but not far off. WPA does add value to those athletes that get government support for chasing medals. That can coexist with a world that has that part of the game and a true commercial part developing side-by-side. Expecting one to rule over the other is ridiculous when you look at how poorly the WPA does at adding value to the commercial side due to its bureaucracy. It’s clear they are more interested in self preservation than they are in actually doing what’s best for the players. When Matchroom says they out the players first, there money is where their mouth is.

 

[FranCrimi]

In my mind Matchroom and Predator are the commercial side of the industry and they don’t need the WPA to do what they do except maybe crown a world champion with a little extra official recognition. Beyond that the WPA only exists to me as the “win a medal” side of the industry. Matchroom calling them the “amateur” side of the sport is a bit snide but not far off. WPA does add value to those athletes that get government support for chasing medals. That can coexist with a world that has that part of the game and a true commercial part developing side-by-side. Expecting one to rule over the other is ridiculous when you look at how poorly the WPA does at adding value to the commercial side due to its bureaucracy. It’s clear they are more interested in self preservation than they are in actually doing what’s best for the players. When Matchroom says they out the players first, there money is where their mouth is.

Well, the self preservation thing you're referring to with the WPA is to keep the global structure of pool within the guidelines of the IOC. Once the structure falls apart, they lose the World Games, any chance at the Olympics and most importantly, all those countries who get government funding will lose their funding. A lot of players receive annual stipends out of that funding and much of the added prize money in several international events comes from that country's government funding. So we are talking about the potential collapse of international championship events, continental events and more. Just look at the WPA calendar. I wouldn't be surprised if it also puts the EuroTour at risk.

Interestingly, Matchroom has always been in a cooperative relationship with the WPA. It's not until their 9 ball tour announcment that they are suddenly considering the WPA an amateur organization. But we know that's not true, since it's been decades now that the IOC has allowed pro players to compete in the Olympic Games.

 

[MattPoland]

Well, the self preservation thing you're referring to with the WPA is to keep the global structure of pool within the guidelines of the IOC. Once the structure falls apart, they lose the World Games, any chance at the Olympics and most importantly, all those countries who get government funding will lose their funding. A lot of players receive annual stipends out of that funding and much of the added prize money in several international events comes from that country's government funding. So we are talking about the potential collapse of international championship events, continental events and more. Just look at the WPA calendar. I wouldn't be surprised if it also puts the EuroTour at risk.

Interestingly, Matchroom has always been in a cooperative relationship with the WPA. It's not until their 9 ball tour announcment that they are suddenly considering the WPA an amateur organization. But we know that's not true, since it's been decades now that the IOC has allowed pro players to compete in the Olympic Games.

I have a different outlook on that. Honestly we are ONLY talking about players getting government funding in countries that do that sort of thing. Beyond that the Olympics will never happen for pool. We can all admit that, right? I’d be less surprised if the Olympics folded due to insolvency and lack of popularity than I would from pool making it into the Olympics.

And let’s look at the World Games. The execution of pool at that event is shamefully underwhelming. The Bob Stocks Memorial is a better event. Professional pool doesn’t need these half hearted attempts like that or even the WCBS Championship that occurs and nobody follows.

So again, the only side of pool that needs it are the players that get paid for participating in win-a-medal pool. And frankly I don’t even have a count of the exact number of countries / players it applies to. It’s a nice-to-have not a need-to-have.

There are other sports out there with non-sanctioned professional tours that co-exist separately from the IOC-sanctioned win-a-medal governing body. WPA can exist without professional pool.

The only self preservation they are holding on to regarding Matchroom is to keep their bureaucratic thumbs on the players. An act which I argue has never added value. Look at how long Billy Thorpe was restricted from playing due to a WADA offense that they couldn’t get a ruling on his punishment. The lack of due process was appalling. The “value” they offer is done poorly and could be more efficiently executed by Matchroom itself. And look at the other times they warn players not to participate in certain Chinese events with massive payouts. They CLEARLY don't have the players best interest in mind, they only have their feeble and faltering structure at interest.

 

[ALT_ESV]

the sad thing is: egos want to be pleased, nobody wants to look like somebody else does it better or be proven wrong or incapable.

The EuroTour is great, but in a weird spot. @FranCrimi said it before: All those organizations exist and tried to make pool olympic. The olympic games are by definition/aspiration amateur events. That's why in the soccer events you have U21 teams and not the real national teams of pros. That's also where Matchroom's statement comes from: we do pro events, you take care of the amateurs. So, what is the EuroTour? Is it for Amateurs and the Pros are just crashing the party? Will it be relegated to 2nd tier? Or amateurs only? Should it actually matter? The EuroTour is a great way to play against the best for many amateurs. They are not the only game in town anymore.

Just going to say that the soccer events for both FIFA World Cup and the Olympics are definitely made of professionals. Here’s the listing of the Women’s team for the 2020 Olympics. And don’t forget about the Dream Team with Michael Jordan.

I’m okay with the WPA attempting to get billiards into the Olympics. Based off my experience of attending the World Games in Birmingham, I don’t see it happening for awhile until there can be a bigger “brand presence”. That means getting to the point where we don’t need pool players auctioning off Meucci cues using powerball numbers. They should be getting cold hard cash sponsorships and not be stuck with selling $15 cue tips.

Women’s Olympic Squad

 

[skogstokig]

This is strange news...last thing I heard was, that in 2024 European players will be forced to choose between EuroTour and MR Events...although I don't know if there has been an official EPBF statement yet.

sounds unwise. in effect that would be dealing a major blow to the eurotour, since the choice for 750+ fargo players is obvious. which makes me think that it's rumours rather than an actual ultimatum

 

[stewie]

Just going to say that the soccer events for both FIFA World Cup and the Olympics are definitely made of professionals. Here’s the listing of the Women’s team for the 2020 Olympics. And don’t forget about the Dream Team with Michael Jordan.

I’m okay with the WPA attempting to get billiards into the Olympics. Based off my experience of attending the World Games in Birmingham, I don’t see it happening for awhile until there can be a bigger “brand presence”. That means getting to the point where we don’t need pool players auctioning off Meucci cues using powerball numbers. They should be getting cold hard cash sponsorships and not be stuck with selling $15 cue tips.
View attachment 712539

Women’s Olympic Squad

I don't know what the exact rules are now, but the olympic idea was about amateurs. That's where this organizational thought came from.

I know there are sports where it's either not enforced or they stopped it. Ice Hockey is also always the question who brings their pros or not. I think the idea was similar to the difference between NFL and College Football in the US. Don't they also have some weird salary cap or artificial amateur status around college sports? Similar idea.

 

[FranCrimi]

I have a different outlook on that. Honestly we are ONLY talking about players getting government funding in countries that do that sort of thing. Beyond that the Olympics will never happen for pool. We can all admit that, right? I’d be less surprised if the Olympics folded due to insolvency and lack of popularity than I would from pool making it into the Olympics.

And let’s look at the World Games. The execution of pool at that event is shamefully underwhelming. The Bob Stocks Memorial is a better event. Professional pool doesn’t need these half hearted attempts like that or even the WCBS Championship that occurs and nobody follows.

So again, the only side of pool that needs it are the players that get paid for participating in win-a-medal pool. And frankly I don’t even have a count of the exact number of countries / players it applies to. It’s a nice-to-have not a need-to-have.

There are other sports out there with non-sanctioned professional tours that co-exist separately from the IOC-sanctioned win-a-medal governing body. WPA can exist without professional pool.

The only self preservation they are holding on to regarding Matchroom is to keep their bureaucratic thumbs on the players. An act which I argue has never added value. Look at how long Billy Thorpe was restricted from playing due to a WADA offense that they couldn’t get a ruling on his punishment. The lack of due process was appalling. The “value” they offer is done poorly and could be more efficiently executed by Matchroom itself. And look at the other times they warn players not to participate in certain Chinese events with massive payouts. They CLEARLY don't have the players best interest in mind, they only have their feeble and faltering structure at interest.

Well the countries that "do that sort of thing" are many and the overall amount is substantial. As I wrote before, I think there are compromises on both ends that can be made so that both can co-exist without anything major being lost. But that means both sides --- not just one side --- have to give up something. When you have one end greedily trying to take it all, only the players will lose in the end.

Matchroom needs to recognize and appreciate the significance of the WPA grid and the WPA needs to recognize the players' need to earn a living and the benefits Matchroom can bring with worldwide TV production. I think that's a good starting point.

 

[Z-Nole]

It’s just good to see a well funded company with a successful business model give it a real shot to help build US pool. I’ve had enough of the dreamers and glue sniffers who barely even talk a good game. Having a talented, energetic, focused and easy to look at lady running the gig gives this effort a strong chance to succeed. Hopefully the nine ball go so well they open a one pocket division!