WPBA Rankings don't look right

[sjm]

Nobody questions the calculations. Given the existing method, Kelly is #1. But, if you are Allison Fisher, you could truthfully say the following:

1) I have won 5 of the last 8 WPBA events.
2) I am the only player with two WPBA titles in 2008.
3) I am 4-0 against Kelly Fisher in the last 8 WPBA events, including three finals, and Kelly Fisher hasn't beaten me even once in over two years.
4) I am dominating the WPBA tour and I am dominating Kelly Fisher when I play her.
5) I am ranked #6.

A careful consideration of these statements might suggest to some that one of them doesn't add up.

To those who suggest that #1 is about who is playing best of late, that would be Allison Fisher, who has the most titles in 2008, the most titles in the last full year of WPBA competition, and who has dominated Kelly Fisher in their head-to-head matches.

The ranking method in use is terrible, and that's the point. Though the quality of play at the top has improved, Allison is as dominant as ever right now, winning WPBA titles at the rate she always has. Only the delusional would suggest otherwise.

I look forward to the day when one or more of the newer players on tour begins to mass produce titles. It will be a great day for women's pro pool when it happens, but not only has that day not arrived, it may not be that close.

 

[facets58]

Not only was this point system voted on by the WPBA pros, but Allison also voted for the final 16 redraw/single elim format.

Barbara

Hey Barbara, the point system may have been voted in by the WPBA pros, but I am certain that they didn't have a sample of the points in ACTION. The players did not see the points set up in a 10 or 16 tournament structure to see if it would in fact be a good idea once it was put into practice.

I had the ranking list set up with the new points before they changed to the new structure, and I have made many attempts to the board to go over the information, but they weren't interested.

Voting on something before you know how it will change things up is a little bit like saying, "I want to learn how to speak Mandarin." It sounds like a good idea until you start doing it.

mike-

 

[facets58]

if you are Allison Fisher, you could truthfully say the following:

1) I have won 5 of the last 8 WPBA events.
2) I am the only player with two WPBA titles in 2008.
3) I am 4-0 against Kelly Fisher in the last 8 WPBA events, including three finals, and Kelly Fisher hasn't beaten me even once in over two years.
4) I am dominating the WPBA tour and I am dominating Kelly Fisher when I play her.
5) I am ranked #6.

good points sjm, i couldn't agree more.

mike- trying not to be delusional :yikes:

how about a TAR match to settle this?

 

[JB Cases]

Hey Barbara, the point system may have been voted in by the WPBA pros, but I am certain that they didn't have a sample of the points in ACTION. The players did not see the points set up in a 10 or 16 tournament structure to see if it would in fact be a good idea once it was put into practice.

I had the ranking list set up with the new points before they changed to the new structure, and I have made many attempts to the board to go over the information, but they weren't interested.

Voting on something before you know how it will change things up is a little bit like saying, "I want to learn how to speak Mandarin." It sounds like a good idea until you start doing it.

mike-

Um, learning to speak Mandarin is a good idea regardless. Wo zhi dao.

 

[JB Cases]

Nobody questions the calculations. Given the existing method, Kelly is #1. But, if you are Allison Fisher, you could truthfully say the following:

1) I have won 5 of the last 8 WPBA events.
2) I am the only player with two WPBA titles in 2008.
3) I am 4-0 against Kelly Fisher in the last 8 WPBA events, including three finals, and Kelly Fisher hasn't beaten me even once in over two years.
4) I am dominating the WPBA tour and I am dominating Kelly Fisher when I play her.
5) I am ranked #6.

A careful consideration of these statements might suggest to some that one of them doesn't add up.

To those who suggest that #1 is about who is playing best of late, that would be Allison Fisher, who has the most titles in 2008, the most titles in the last full year of WPBA competition, and who has dominated Kelly Fisher in their head-to-head matches.

The ranking method in use is terrible, and that's the point. Though the quality of play at the top has improved, Allison is as dominant as ever right now, winning WPBA titles at the rate she always has. Only the delusional would suggest otherwise.

I look forward to the day when one or more of the newer players on tour begins to mass produce titles. It will be a great day for women's pro pool when it happens, but not only has that day not arrived, it may not be that close.

And next tournament when I win it I will continue my domination despite the rank list. I play under the same rules as everyone else and know that 2 and out is not acceptable for a player of my caliber. Kelly had better enjoy her brief ascension to number one because I will take it back in the next four events. Cheers, Allie.

(not written by Allison for those who don't get it.)

Stu I am not delusional. This is the closest we have ever come to disagreeing on anything and as ususal your logic is sound. However you must agree that both players are playing under the same system. Numerically it is fair because it is applied equally. It may not be weighted as you would like to see it but it is applied to everyone in the same manner. Where you finish is what you earn in points. Both Allision and Kelly and all the other players have to deal with the SAME system.

So it doesn't matter what the head to head record is, it doesn't matter where they are 8, 16, or 100 tournaments back. It only matters that they agreed to abide by whatever system is adopted by their organization. And they both have to adapt to it.

Under that system, right now, Kelly Fisher is number one. Does this mean Kelly is the better player or has the better record? Of course not. It only means that under this ranking system at this moment in time Kelly has played well enough, along with other factors, to become the number one player on the WPBA.

Will she hold that position? Who knows. But the fact is that this is not a two horse race. 64 other women out of 100 or so who want to be on tour are trying to better their ranking position each tournament. The cumulative total of all their efforts determines the rankings. And without them there is no tour.

John, often delusional, it's a nicer world when I am.

 

[facets58]

Here is the list on the players who have been in the top 16 at an event over the last 16 WPBA events.


________________1st ___ 2nd ____ 3-4th _____ 5-8th ____ 9-16th __ Total top 16 finishes

Allison Fisher_____ 7 _____ 3 ________ 1 ________ 4 ________ 0 _____ 15
Ga Young Kim_____ 4 _____ 0 ________ 3 ________ 6 ________ 2 _____ 15
Karen Corr________ 2 _____ 4 ________ 2 ________ 4 ________ 3 _____ 15
Kelly Fisher_______ 2 _____ 1 ________ 3 ________ 5 ________ 4 _____ 15
Pan Xiaoting______ 1 _____ 3 ________ 6 ________ 1 ________ 4 _____ 15
Jeanette Lee_____ 0 _____ 1 ________ 2 ________ 0 ________ 3 _____ 6
Kim Shaw________ 0 _____ 1 ________ 1 ________ 0 ________ 5 _____ 7
Gerda Hofstatter__ 0 _____ 1 ________ 0 ________ 7 ________ 4 _____ 12
Helena Thornfeldt_ 0 _____ 1 ________ 0 ________ 4 ________ 6 _____ 11
Iris Ranola_______ 0 _____ 1 ________ 0 ________ 0 ________ 1 _____ 2
Monica Webb_____ 0 _____ 0 ________ 3 ________ 7 ________ 5 _____ 15
Jasmin Ouschan___ 0 _____ 0 ________ 3 ________ 2 ________ 5 _____ 10
Sarah Ellerby_____ 0 _____ 0 ________ 2 ________ 3 ________ 8 _____ 13
Vivian Villarreal___ 0 _____ 0 ________ 2 ________ 2 ________ 8 _____ 12
Anna Kostanian___ 0 _____ 0 ________ 1 ________ 3 ________ 2 _____ 6
Julie Kelly________ 0 _____ 0 ________ 1 ________ 2 ________ 2 _____ 5
Melissa Herndon__ 0 _____ 0 ________ 1 ________ 0 ________ 7 _____ 8
Yu-Ram Cha______ 0 _____ 0 ________ 1 ________ 0 ________ 1 _____ 2
Kim White_______ 0 _____ 0 ________ 0 ________ 3 ________ 2 _____ 5
Tiffany Nelson____ 0 _____ 0 ________ 0 ________ 2 ________ 4 _____ 6
Candi Rego_______ 0 _____ 0 ________ 0 ________ 2 ________ 1 _____ 3
Sarah Rousey_____ 0 _____ 0 ________ 0 ________ 1 ________ 4 _____ 5
Megan Minerich___ 0 _____ 0 ________ 0 ________ 1 ________ 3 _____ 4
Belinda Calhoun___ 0 _____ 0 ________ 0 ________ 1 ________ 2 _____ 3
Hsin Huang_______ 0 _____ 0 ________ 0 ________ 1 ________ 2 _____ 3
Miyuki Sakai______ 0 _____ 0 ________ 0 ________ 1 ________ 1 _____ 2
Jennifer Barretta__ 0 _____ 0 ________ 0 ________ 1 ________ 1 _____ 2
Rachel Abbink____ 0 _____ 0 ________ 0 ________ 1 ________ 1 _____ 2
Dawn Hopkins____ 0 _____ 0 ________ 0 ________ 0 ________ 5 _____ 5
Jennifer Chen_____ 0 _____ 0 ________ 0 ________ 0 ________ 4 _____ 4
Ewa Laurance_____ 0 _____ 0 ________ 0 ________ 0 ________ 3 _____ 3
Tracie Hines______ 0 _____ 0 ________ 0 ________ 0 ________ 3 _____ 3
Joanne Ashton____ 0 _____ 0 ________ 0 ________ 0 ________ 2 _____ 2
Cathy Metzinger__ 0 _____ 0 ________ 0 ________ 0 ________ 2 _____ 2
Gail Grecar_______ 0 _____ 0 ________ 0 ________ 0 ________ 2 _____ 2
Melissa Little_____ 0 _____ 0 ________ 0 ________ 0 ________ 1 _____ 1
Alice Rim________ 0 _____ 0 ________ 0 ________ 0 ________ 1 _____ 1
Laura Smith______ 0 _____ 0 ________ 0 ________ 0 ________ 1 _____ 1
Liz Ford__________ 0 _____ 0 ________ 0 ________ 0 ________ 1 _____ 1
Janet Atwell______ 0 _____ 0 ________ 0 ________ 0 ________ 1 _____ 1
Caroline Pao_____ 0 _____ 0 ________ 0 ________ 0 ________ 1 _____ 1
Melissa Morris____ 0 _____ 0 ________ 0 ________ 0 ________ 1 _____ 1
Val Finnie________ 0 _____ 0 ________ 0 ________ 0 ________ 1 _____ 1
Morgan Steinman_ 0 _____ 0 ________ 0 ________ 0 ________ 1 _____ 1
My Hahn Lac_____ 0 _____ 0 ________ 0 ________ 0 ________ 1 _____ 1
Amanda Lampert_ 0 _____ 0 ________ 0 ________ 0 ________ 1 _____ 1
Pam Cimarelli____ 0 _____ 0 ________ 0 ________ 0 ________ 1 _____ 1
Eleanor Callado___ 0 _____ 0 ________ 0 ________ 0 ________ 1 _____ 1
Hazel Cook_______ 0 _____ 0 ________ 0 ________ 0 ________ 1 _____ 1

 

[JB Cases]

good points sjm, i couldn't agree more.

mike- trying not to be delusional :yikes:

how about a TAR match to settle this?

I love both Fishers. However in a TAR match going to 100 I have $10,000 on Kelly Fisher to win it.

Stu is right that Allison consistently wins against Kelly under the lights. But the actual match footage reveals that Kelly most often gives it away rather than Allison outplaying Kelly.

Based on actual skills Kelly Fisher "should" be the dominating player on tour. BUT we all know that skills alone don't get it.

SJM - what is the record for any player to be 8:1 up against Allison? Win or lose what is the largest margin that Allison has ever faced?

Had Kelly won that match three years ago against Allie then perhaps we would have seen a different landscape now. Perhaps. But that is water under the bridge.

Anyway, I have $10,000 to bet on Kelly Fisher against any other WPBA player. Set it up.

 

[Barbara]

Mike,

I was just stating what was conveyed to me as fact. I'm a fan of the old WPBA points system. Especially when the payouts aren't always the same at each event - the old point system was even and consistent.

But I'm an ignorant fvck that ran a tour with differing payouts at every venue, so what do I know?

Barbara

Hey Barbara, the point system may have been voted in by the WPBA pros, but I am certain that they didn't have a sample of the points in ACTION. The players did not see the points set up in a 10 or 16 tournament structure to see if it would in fact be a good idea once it was put into practice.

I had the ranking list set up with the new points before they changed to the new structure, and I have made many attempts to the board to go over the information, but they weren't interested.

Voting on something before you know how it will change things up is a little bit like saying, "I want to learn how to speak Mandarin." It sounds like a good idea until you start doing it.

mike-

 

[sjm]

SJM - what is the record for any player to be 8:1 up against Allison? Win or lose what is the largest margin that Allison has ever faced?.

On two different occasions that I can recall, Allison Fisher has been shut out in a match.

In 2001, in the semifinals of the WPBA Nationals in Michigan, Jeanette Lee defeated Allison 7-0.

n 2004, in the semifinals of WPBA Florida, Jeanette Lee defeated Allison 7-0.

 

[av84fun]

I'm prolly gonna get slammed for this, but am I the only one that doesn't see much issue with this? It was voted on, implications on this thread are this ranking system was chosen on purpose, but from what I see is yea it sucks right now for Ali, but maybe that will give her even more drive! That would be impressive and awesome.
Would this even be discussed if she placed better in the tournament and was ranked either 1 or 2?

Oh you can bet the ranch on that! As I posted elsewhere, I think she would LOVE to beat both her opponents AND a stacked deck of rules/rankings.

Awesome would be right!

(-:

Jim

 

[facets58]

On two different occasions that I can recall, Allison Fisher has been shut out in a match.

In 2001, in the semifinals of the WPBA Nationals in Michigan, Jeanette Lee defeated Allison 7-0.

n 2004, in the semifinals of WPBA Florida, Jeanette Lee defeated Allison 7-0.

sjm=walking pool almanac

 

[crosseyedjoe]

Oh you can bet the ranch on that! As I posted elsewhere, I think she would LOVE to beat both her opponents AND a stacked deck of rules/rankings.

Awesome would be right!

(-:

Jim

Stacked deck of rules/rankings? Weird, stacked against who, if I may ask?

 

[sunnyday]

I love both Fishers. However in a TAR match going to 100 I have $10,000 on Kelly Fisher to win it.

Anyway, I have $10,000 to bet on Kelly Fisher against any other WPBA player. Set it up.

Oh, wow! that would be very exciting.:thumbup: Any takers?

S.

 

[Nostroke]

I love both Fishers. However in a TAR match going to 100 I have $10,000 on Kelly Fisher to win it.

Stu is right that Allison consistently wins against Kelly under the lights. But the actual match footage reveals that Kelly most often gives it away rather than Allison outplaying Kelly.

Based on actual skills Kelly Fisher "should" be the dominating player on tour. BUT we all know that skills alone don't get it.

SJM - what is the record for any player to be 8:1 up against Allison? Win or lose what is the largest margin that Allison has ever faced?

Had Kelly won that match three years ago against Allie then perhaps we would have seen a different landscape now. Perhaps. But that is water under the bridge.

Anyway, I have $10,000 to bet on Kelly Fisher against any other WPBA player. Set it up.

If you can get Miss Kim as an opponent, I have a substantial sidebet Id like to make vs anyone also. I dont like her at 2-1 so dont ask me to back her in this. BTW- I think a race to 60 is good.