Wrist Positions - Experiment

[drivermaker]

What I'm about to discuss may in fact benefit some of you and will screw up the game badly of a few others and it has to do with wrist positions. First of all I wonder how many of you do different things with your wrist as you shoot or set up, especially the long time players. The back hand wrist gripping the butt can be in one of 3 positions: hanging down straight, or neutral; next, initially set in a convex position with the palm turned under and the back of the wrist bowed out like Jeremy Jones; or concave like Keith with the palm facing toward the floor and the back of the wrist cupped. The teacher/instructor/purists of the sport would have you in a straight or neutral position throughout your stroke, however there are a lot more ways to make balls and skin a cat. For instance, you can also start from a neutral position at setup from a centerball position and roll under to convex on your backstroke and by the time you start your follow through you'll see that the shaft is now pointing at a slight angle going off center and will actually assist you in getting desired spin and make cuts at certain angles. Conversely, if you start in a neutral position and cup it, it will also alter your shaft position and have an affect on spin and cutting in the opposite direction. It takes timing and good hand eye coordination and should probably only be used if you spend a lot of time on the table, but it does work very effectively. Some of you may be actually doing this without realizing it and missing shots without knowing why, that's why I'm only trying to heighten your awareness factor to see what actually happens when you alter your positions, good...bad...or indifferent. What is your setup, backstroke, and follow through wrist position?

 

[Andy Segal]

Just to let you know, I submitted an article to Inside Pool about this subject. It has to do with wrist movement and deflection. I'm not sure when it will be published. I heard sometime in either June or July.

I don't want to get into the details of the article since the guys at Inside Pool would probably rather the article come out first. Keep an eye out for it and definately let me know what you think after you read it.

Andy Segal

 

[runneeschitz]

What I'm about to discuss may in fact benefit some of you and will screw up the game badly of a few others and it has to do with wrist positions. First of all I wonder how many of you do different things with ...

This is a good question, what is correct. I find that I shoot a lot straighter when my wrist is hanging straight down but I have a natural tendency to bend my wrist slightly when I not focusing to keep it straight. When this occurs I tend to miss balls where I try to shoot softly. Don't know if there is a correct way or not, but if Keith can shoot like the way he does, I wouldn't change it. I guess it's a matter of proper technique and using what works.

 

[drivermaker]

This is a good question, what is correct. I find that I shoot a lot straighter when my wrist is hanging straight down but I have a natural tendency to bend my wrist slightly when I not focusing to keep it straight. When this occurs I tend to miss balls where I try to shoot softly. Don't know if there is a correct way or not, but if Keith can shoot like the way he does, I wouldn't change it. I guess it's a matter of proper technique and using what works.

That's somewhat the point. Do you really know which position works best? Have you experimented with all of the different wrist positions for yourself?
Do you know what happens to your shaft alignment when you alter it during the course of your stroke either by bowing or cupping? Which way do you miss when you cup and which way do you miss when you bow? How does it alter deflection and allow you to make different cuts easier? I do it on purpose and would not be the BCA Certified Instructor poster boy for a technically picture perfect stroke, but I know what's going to happen and where the CB is going. I've also put a lot of hours on the table my entire life and started playing about 52 years ago when I was 5.
I also would not recommend it for most, other than to be aware if you're doing it and missing balls as a result. I'm not going to get into it any further, I look forward to seeing Andy's article and comparing notes and suggest that everyone get that issue of Inside Pool, I'm certain that it will be very enlightening. And runnee...if anyone knows what playing like "caca" can be like by erroneously using it, I would think it to be you.

 

[Williebetmore]

Drivermaker,
An interesting consideration. In a true neutral position (with the hand and forearm hanging loosely) there is a gentle curve outward from the wrist joint along the back of the hand to the knuckles. Irving Crane tried to make that a straight line, he seemed to do fairly well. Most players seem to keep a fairly neutral position with the slight curve; with a fairly loose grip that would seem to be the easiest way to develop a repeatable stroke (I think I've tried them all, but nothing radical one way or the other, just slightly concave or slightly convex). The fewer moving parts and muscle groups involved, the more consistently I play. The looser the grip, the better I play under pressure.

 

[drivermaker]

Drivermaker,
An interesting consideration. In a true neutral position (with the hand and forearm hanging loosely) there is a gentle curve outward from the wrist joint along the back of the hand to the knuckles. Irving Crane tried to make that a straight line, he seemed to do fairly well. Most players seem to keep a fairly neutral position with the slight curve; with a fairly loose grip that would seem to be the easiest way to develop a repeatable stroke (I think I've tried them all, but nothing radical one way or the other, just slightly concave or slightly convex). The fewer moving parts and muscle groups involved, the more consistently I play. The looser the grip, the better I play under pressure.

Geezus Willie....I was concerned about YOU, of all people, reading what I said.
Don't mess with any of it! This goes totally against your grain, and for most, the fewer moving parts and muscle groups involved the more consistent play WILL be. This is what I meant to say: Always stay the course; walk the straight and narrow; never think outside the box; experimentation with deviant methods could ingrain bad habits; always stride for technical perfection in each stroke; memorize each diagram and page of Jack Kohler's book; tape yourself for biomechanical perfection; only use a Predator; cure the #1 scourge of missed shots in pool, deflection; and most importantly, never think of emulating Efren or Busta, they can't play doing all of those wild and whacky things and neither will anyone else.

 

[9balldiva]

Just to let you know, I submitted an article to Inside Pool about this subject. It has to do with wrist movement and deflection. I'm not sure when it will be published. I heard sometime in either June or July.

I don't want to get into the details of the article since the guys at Inside Pool would probably rather the article come out first. Keep an eye out for it and definately let me know what you think after you read it.

Andy Segal

I'm not sure what the article entailed, but in the last issue I read (last week) there was a deflection test. It listed all the well known cues...of course Predator had the lowest deflection with 58% (I think it was)...th others ranged from 112% up to 150%. Any relation between your article and this one!??

 

[Andy Segal]

No relation. I wrote the article because I was practicing in my basement a certain trick shot and I found out a certain relationship between your wrist and deflection.

Andy

 

[drivermaker]

That's somewhat the point. Do you really know which position works best? Have you experimented with all of the different wrist positions for yourself?
Do you know what happens to your shaft alignment when you alter it during the course of your stroke either by bowing or cupping? Which way do you miss when you cup and which way do you miss when you bow? How does it alter deflection and allow you to make different cuts easier? I do it on purpose and would not be the BCA Certified Instructor poster boy for a technically picture perfect stroke, but I know what's going to happen and where the CB is going. I've also put a lot of hours on the table my entire life and started playing about 52 years ago when I was 5.
I also would not recommend it for most, other than to be aware if you're doing it and missing balls as a result. I'm not going to get into it any further, I look forward to seeing Andy's article and comparing notes and suggest that everyone get that issue of Inside Pool, I'm certain that it will be very enlightening. And runnee...if anyone knows what playing like "caca" can be like by erroneously using it, I would think it to be you.

Earlier this year, I started this thread just to "broach" the subject of tuck and roll without really going into very much depth or say what it was. I wanted to feel the forum members out to see if they had any knowledge, curiosity regarding additional information, or just thought that I was a dumb whacko that didn't know what I was talking about unless you played entirely from a straight wrist postition and stroked parallel. (A few already think I'm a whacko, but that's OK because I have my opinions of them also and they ain't to spiffy.) As you can see this thread was DOA and got very few posts. Boys...you gotta learn backhand english as well as tuck and roll, otherwise you'll be playing strictly by the science books and I haven't seen one PhD. scientist win a damn thing yet.

 

[drivermaker]

The words Supination and Pronation are popping into my head....Thanks DM...

Just a guess here, but I would imagine it be best for anyone to start by learning a neutral grip, and then as your game/skill develops...you will graduate to a "personal" wrist position that achieves a "consistant" and "accurate" stroke......

It would be best to learn a neutral grip and how to stroke the ball properly. But it goes beyond just developing a personal wrist position. It has to do with MANIPULATING your wrist position for different english and shots. It's very similar to manipulating your wrist from convex to concave in shaping a golf shot left or right, but that's not for a beginner or hack either. Just as the wrist controls the clubface position between open and closed, this has a similar effect on your cue alignment. Not for the faint of heart....

 

[JoeyInCali]

It would be best to learn a neutral grip and how to stroke the ball properly. But it goes beyond just developing a personal wrist position. It has to do with MANIPULATING your wrist position for different english and shots. It's very similar to manipulating your wrist from convex to concave in shaping a golf shot left or right, but that's not for a beginner or hack either. Just as the wrist controls the clubface position between open and closed, this has a similar effect on your cue alignment. Not for the faint of heart....

I tried it, didn't like it.
So, I just move my rear opposite of the english then freeze on that.
Then shoot.

 

[drivermaker]

I tried it, didn't like it.
So, I just move my rear opposite of the english then freeze on that.
Then shoot.

So instead of what's called "tuck and roll"...is this called "cheek to cheek"?

 

[JoeyInCali]

So instead of what's called "tuck and roll"...is this called "cheek to cheek"?

Hey, can I trademark that?
Just like any "system", you have to have the right shaft/tip for it.
My whippier shaft works better for this. The really stiff shaft does not.
It doesn't have much action.
Also, the distance and cueball speed are huge factors. 4 diamonds away on a 3-rail speed, it works well.