you can't smoke in a poolroom???

[catscradle]

What should the limitations be then, if any? Can a government dictate uniforms for employees of a private business. Should a government decide what music shall be played on the jukebox?

Sure IF the people go along with it, it stands up under the law, and they can enforce it. The limitation are those as defined in the constitutions of the nation and the various states, and as codified in the laws.

 

[cueandcushion]

But why not consider some kind of compromise for your customers? No smoking before 10pm for example. (The health conscious should be at home in bed by that time anyway.) Or no-smoking nights. Why wait for the government to force an issue that can be solved by the business owner?

LOL>..First of all health conscious and pool player are at opposite ends of the spectrum. It is a daily event that a single mother or father will bring their newborn baby or young child in a smokefilled pool room at 2am and feed them skittles all night for dinner. Even with smoke eaters I can come in the next day and there is still smoke in the air from the night before. It literally takes weeks to clean the smell out of a place after that much smoke. I once put in healthy snacks in our snack cooler. I put in fresh fruit, muffins, bagels etc since pool players wanted more healthy choices. Funny...when they had the choice they complained I took out all the "good" foods. A month later the fruit had rotted, the muffins moldy and the bagels hard. I spent about $150 on healthy stuff and sold about $7 worth. Learned my lesson. I guess it goes hand in hand with guys that hang out in our pool room. They want to smoke, gamble, eat unhealthy food. I think they all have a death wish of sorts.

The government has a 1000 regulations that I must follow in order to stay in business. The latest one is sexual discrimination by gender based pricing. For 38 years we had ladies rates of half price. We also had free pool for ladies with a gentlemen escort. Now that is considered discriminatory and we charge the same rate. Guess what? All the customers that mooched off us for years of discounted pool complain that we wont hire and attorney to get the state to reverse the law. You know? Since it is all MY fault the law was passed.. The government regulates every single aspect of my business. From the hours I can be open to the required safety equipment my employees must wear like goggles and steel toe boots. From ladies rate pricing to electrical codes and safety exits. If you serve food you can add about ANOTHER 1000 regulations to follow.

Anyone on here that thinks you can do ANYTHING you want when you open a business really needs to come out of their cave. Owning a business has a lot of great perks, but it is not a dictatorship. It is still regulated for the safety of everyone involved. If you have exposed wiring, open sewer line, structural damage, you cannot be open to the public. It seems to me that a lot of posters here have never owned a business. Saying that if you get a fine just pay it and pay it again when you break the law again. It really doesn't work that way. Sell a beer to an underage kid, pay fine, sell again to underage kid, pay HUGE fine, sell to a third underage kid, lose liquor license, lose business license, get arrested, get on statewide watch list where you are photographed and not allowed to own any business again that has liquor involved, get charged with a felony and possibly go to prison. Whenever you start accumulating fines you many times have have your business license revoked for having a "problem business". Pool players may not care because they will just go to the next pool room.

As a business owner you do have a legal and moral responsibility to provide a workplace and gathering place that is healthy and safe. Smoking bans is no different that previous changes in the law. When I had to make $23,000 in improvements in electrical codes and add another fire exit to my business, no customers complained. Is anyone really so ignorant of business to think it didnt affect them? Did they think I had a big bucket of $100 dollar bills laying around to use? I had to take out a loan, raise prices on products to pay for it and pay it off over the next three years. One way or another customers eventually pay for all these safety issues. If not that means the business went under. The government already regulates what clothes the employees wear. It regulates what songs are on my jukebox. It regulates the paint on my walls and the carpet on my floors. All you can do is conform with all the regulations and vote politicians out of office that overregulate you or overtax you.

Guess I am done rambling for now....will go rest my typing fingers.

 

[txspaderz]

I see all the bickering and debating going on, and IMO I still don't see the reason why everyone is fighting? I'm a smoker. I respect people around me that don't like smoke.

This is all about choice. We chose to smoke, we chose to go to a smoking restaurant, we chose to go to a comedy club where smoking is allowed. If you don't like smoke, don't choose to go to one of the above. You can go to a movie theater, or play pool at home if you don't like the smoke. Same thing on the other side. There are non-smoking poolhalls here in Houston. Smokers choose to go to them, and they go outside. It's simple guys and gals. It's your right to choose whether you want to be around the smoke or not. If you do, fine. If you don't, fine.

No one is forcing you to be around smoke, no one is holding a gun to your head and telling you to inhale the smoke. If a business owner wants to allow smoking, or not allow smoking, it's their choice. We are letting the government get to much control. (<~~ IMO). I mean, I have smoked for 10 years. I still get out and run every morning, go work in a warehouse for 11 hours a day, and go home and enjoy a cigarette. If I want to smoke in a bar / pool hall, and they allow it, it's my choice if I want to or not. If I don't want to be around it, I don't go. Simple as that.

As far as employees in a safe environment. That's just silly (IMO). I mean, come on. You go for an interview to be a bartender. Do you expect there not to be smoke? That's a given. It was the employee's choice to work at a bar. If they didn't want to be around smoke, they should have tried to get a job at a Bennigans or an I-Hop.

 

[nfty9er]

A little misleading

One more thing about the owners' decisions for their customers:

I played in a hall in San Francisco a few years ago. It was in the Rincon (sp) Center, downtown. The owner was bragging about his new $200,000 smoke eating system. He said it was the best in the world. And I agreed. I couldn't smell any smoke, even though many were smoking there. A few months after that, California passed their anti-smoking law. Guess what? His MAJOR investment, which was the right thing to do for his customers and the competitive thing to do for his business, was flushed down the toilet. He lost his edge and thus his customers. The business soon followed and is now gone. Because he chose to do the right thing, he was punished by the many.

How may businesses will take these types of actions again, knowing that their investments could be shot to hell in one day of majority rule? None.

This, too, hurts us. There's more to it than second-hand smoke, folks...much more. Pool's future is a stake.

Jeff Livingston

If you didn't remember the name that was Chalkers Billiards and I would venture to say it was not the no smoking that put them out of business but more likely the high rents in that area. (Financial District). I mean think about it, 75 percent of the people do not smoke so if you cannot survive with that many people to draw from, something else is wrong. I speak from experience as I had a smoke filled room for years and I smoked but I adjusted and business picked back up with the non smokers so that reasoning is b.s. if they use that as an excuse. They put in that system years before the smoking ban and he got his value ouf of it and if they paid that much money on ventilation for smoke they were crazy and deservied to go out. They had instant customers constantly at that location, it was just the wrong business for the rent.

 

[nfty9er]

Lucky me

LOL>..First of all health conscious and pool player are at opposite ends of the spectrum. It is a daily event that a single mother or father will bring their newborn baby or young child in a smokefilled pool room at 2am and feed them skittles all night for dinner. Even with smoke eaters I can come in the next day and there is still smoke in the air from the night before. It literally takes weeks to clean the smell out of a place after that much smoke. I once put in healthy snacks in our snack cooler. I put in fresh fruit, muffins, bagels etc since pool players wanted more healthy choices. Funny...when they had the choice they complained I took out all the "good" foods. A month later the fruit had rotted, the muffins moldy and the bagels hard. I spent about $150 on healthy stuff and sold about $7 worth. Learned my lesson. I guess it goes hand in hand with guys that hang out in our pool room. They want to smoke, gamble, eat unhealthy food. I think they all have a death wish of sorts.

The government has a 1000 regulations that I must follow in order to stay in business. The latest one is sexual discrimination by gender based pricing. For 38 years we had ladies rates of half price. We also had free pool for ladies with a gentlemen escort. Now that is considered discriminatory and we charge the same rate. Guess what? All the customers that mooched off us for years of discounted pool complain that we wont hire and attorney to get the state to reverse the law. You know? Since it is all MY fault the law was passed.. The government regulates every single aspect of my business. From the hours I can be open to the required safety equipment my employees must wear like goggles and steel toe boots. From ladies rate pricing to electrical codes and safety exits. If you serve food you can add about ANOTHER 1000 regulations to follow.

Anyone on here that thinks you can do ANYTHING you want when you open a business really needs to come out of their cave. Owning a business has a lot of great perks, but it is not a dictatorship. It is still regulated for the safety of everyone involved. If you have exposed wiring, open sewer line, structural damage, you cannot be open to the public. It seems to me that a lot of posters here have never owned a business. Saying that if you get a fine just pay it and pay it again when you break the law again. It really doesn't work that way. Sell a beer to an underage kid, pay fine, sell again to underage kid, pay HUGE fine, sell to a third underage kid, lose liquor license, lose business license, get arrested, get on statewide watch list where you are photographed and not allowed to own any business again that has liquor involved, get charged with a felony and possibly go to prison. Whenever you start accumulating fines you many times have have your business license revoked for having a "problem business". Pool players may not care because they will just go to the next pool room.

As a business owner you do have a legal and moral responsibility to provide a workplace and gathering place that is healthy and safe. Smoking bans is no different that previous changes in the law. When I had to make $23,000 in improvements in electrical codes and add another fire exit to my business, no customers complained. Is anyone really so ignorant of business to think it didnt affect them? Did they think I had a big bucket of $100 dollar bills laying around to use? I had to take out a loan, raise prices on products to pay for it and pay it off over the next three years. One way or another customers eventually pay for all these safety issues. If not that means the business went under. The government already regulates what clothes the employees wear. It regulates what songs are on my jukebox. It regulates the paint on my walls and the carpet on my floors. All you can do is conform with all the regulations and vote politicians out of office that overregulate you or overtax you.

Guess I am done rambling for now....will go rest my typing fingers.

Sir, I am sure glad my room is not in your area. I have been in business 26 years and not once have I had to pay that kind of money. They do not grandfather laws here. I must repair and keep things running and safe but do not have to install new equipment. You got the shaft in that respect.
And how does the govt. regulate clothes, music, paint and carpet. Never heard of that law. Maybe I am breaking it, I painted over the graffiti again in my bathroom. Well thats against the law too. (graffiti that is).
And just for information, pool is 50% of my business and I serve alcohol, food, soda, snacks etc etc. I think you stated yours is 9%. That seems real low. I know you do a lot of sales but 9 percent is not worth it.

 

[MrLucky]

What should the limitations be then, if any? Can a government dictate uniforms for employees of a private business. Should a government decide what music shall be played on the jukebox?

I do not understand the analogy! What in the world does a employees uniform or the music played in a business have to do with customers health and safety?

 

[chefjeff]

This is so far from reality it's unbelievable.

Let's look at the actual reality of the situation and not the half baked ramblings of pissed off smokers...

It is a business owners responsibility to provide a safe work environment for it's employees.

It is a business owners responsibility to provide a safe environment for it's customers.

It is a business owners responsibility to have a business license and abide by ALL the local laws applying to their type of business.

No rights are being infringed upon because you are still able to walk outside and smoke, you just cannot do so in a place of business where it is effecting others in a confined space forcing them to endanger their health through your actions.

You act like running a business comes with no personal responsibility of civic responsibility and that's just plain wrong not only on a legal level but on a humanity level.

To sit there and argue property rights and confuse it with business bi-laws is just ridiculous. The two are not the same and do not apply to each other at all. Run a business out of your home, close the doors at night and smoke all you want, your not breaking the law.. therefore your property rights are not being "violated" as you say. Open your doors for business and yes, you must stop smoking, why? because that's a local ordinance that you must follow in order to run your business. One does not have ANYTHING to do with the other. Arguing that logic is just looking for a way to put a spin on your argument that sounds good but it doesn't make it right or wrong.

Public safety IS the responsibility of every single business owner out there.

Is there a difference because fire exits are mandatory and smoking is banned? Is the difference that fire kills you right away and that lung cancer takes years and years?

It would seem to me that in one case your being given a way to flee a fire for yoru safety and the other the smoke is being removed from the room because you cannot flee it.

You got a buffet, you don't see everyone sitting around with their pets feeding them food from a plate from the buffet. You don't see people being allowed to sneeze all over your food.

Why? Because these have been deemed public safety hazards.

Employees must wash hands. Employees must wear hair nets.

Why? Because thees have been deemed public safety hazards.

And yet your going to stand there and defend smoking when millions die every year to lung cancer? It's just plain idiotic.

Court after court upholds the smoking bans and will continue to because there is nothing unconstitutional about it.

Businesses are businsses not people and in running businesses you have responsibilities.

Property and personal rights are not being violated because you can smoke in your own home, shed, garage, etc any time you want.

You can put any sort of twist you want on it but in the end, your just plain wrong and will continue to be wrong and that's fine, our constituition does actually defend your right to be wrong.

As I said previously, throw your tantrim, get off your soapbox and get the hell outside with that cigarette.

You might actually try and read what I wrote.

I do not smoke.

The rest of your post is filled with just as many innaccuracies.

Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

Well that's because you are sick, my friend; sick in the head. At least you aren't digusted this time. You had two days to respond to my post and that's the best you could do? Evade whatever I said by making some ridiculous comment that isn't even true? Propery Rights isn't a "silly little argument". YOUR argument that property rights has anything to do with this discussion is what's silly. How many times do you need to be told that, in the case of a bar or pool room, once you open your doors to the public, you are bound by the laws that apply to that type of business? Do you REALLY not understand this? Are you really unaware that this is how it works?

Of course I'm aware...why do you think I'm making the argument? I understand government and it's destructive powers. I also understand smoking and its destructive powers. I actually chose to stay away from pool halls because I value my lungs over my pool.

The reason I defend liberty is because I value it over the nanny-state's violent means disguised as just ends.

Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

There is no such thing as "property rights". The concept of private property is only that, a concept. It evolved because it seems that it is an efficient way to run society, but the concept is entirely arbitrary subject to defininition by the society. Since it is a concept, that concept can be defined as widely or as narrowly as society dictates. Laws are how society defines the concepts we live by. As long as smoking bans are within the law, which I believe they are, then "rights" do not come in to the equation. The term "rights" is nothing but a euphenism (sp?) for these concepts. By using the terms "rights" some people believe it lends a absolute nature to the concept, but in fact it is still just arbitrary. As such they are subject to change in definition as society ,that is, government, chooses to define them.
Smoking bans are not a "rights" issue, some argument may be made that they are not a good idea (an argument I would disagree with), but "rights" don't come in to play.

I'll take this from you cat man, because you understand that, and actually I agree with you. The reason I use the "rights" argument is because that one is as deep as most people look at liberty. It is speaking their language, if you will. They started it by using the term "right to breathe clean air," etc.

Tell us more about rights, please, so all can understand the concept better. I'd do it myself, but I'm kinda busy right now.

Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

If you didn't remember the name that was Chalkers Billiards and I would venture to say it was not the no smoking that put them out of business but more likely the high rents in that area. (Financial District). I mean think about it, 75 percent of the people do not smoke so if you cannot survive with that many people to draw from, something else is wrong. I speak from experience as I had a smoke filled room for years and I smoked but I adjusted and business picked back up with the non smokers so that reasoning is b.s. if they use that as an excuse. They put in that system years before the smoking ban and he got his value ouf of it and if they paid that much money on ventilation for smoke they were crazy and deservied to go out. They had instant customers constantly at that location, it was just the wrong business for the rent.

Thanks you for the additonal data. I did not know if the smoking ban put them out of business, but I'm guessing it sure didn't help. My point was supposed to be in that post, that he spent thousands doing the right thing, in order to be competitive, and his smart, healthful investment turned out to be wasted as this competitive edge was taken away.

And what about the people who supply smoke eaters? What happens to their businesees when these laws pass? Oh well, another good business spanked down, so what?

Jeff Livingston

 

[MrLucky]

Interesting question...

Thanks you for the additonal data. I did not know if the smoking ban put them out of business, but I'm guessing it sure didn't help. My point was supposed to be in that post, that he spent thousands doing the right thing, in order to be competitive, and his smart, healthful investment turned out to be wasted as this competitive edge was taken away.

And what about the people who supply smoke eaters? What happens to their businesees when these laws pass? Oh well, another good business spanked down, so what?

Jeff Livingston

Here is a interesting answer .. the same thing that happened to the suppliers to the Horse and Buggy trade when the automobile was invented ! they move into more profitable and updated areas. but actually the primary manufacturers of "smoke eaters" are already making other healthy air conscious appliances and will be doing fine!

 

[chefjeff]

Here is a interesting answer .. the same thing that happened to the suppliers to the Horse and Buggy trade when the automobile was invented ! they move into more profitable and updated areas. but actually the primary manufacturers of "smoke eaters" are already making other healthy air conscious appliances and will be doing fine!

What do you do for a living (besides knowing best how to run OTHERS' businesses)?

Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

There is no such thing as "property rights". The concept of private property is only that, a concept. It evolved because it seems that it is an efficient way to run society, but the concept is entirely arbitrary subject to defininition by the society. Since it is a concept, that concept can be defined as widely or as narrowly as society dictates. Laws are how society defines the concepts we live by. As long as smoking bans are within the law, which I believe they are, then "rights" do not come in to the equation. The term "rights" is nothing but a euphenism (sp?) for these concepts. By using the terms "rights" some people believe it lends a absolute nature to the concept, but in fact it is still just arbitrary. As such they are subject to change in definition as society ,that is, government, chooses to define them.
Smoking bans are not a "rights" issue, some argument may be made that they are not a good idea (an argument I would disagree with), but "rights" don't come in to play.

Cat, I found this article that you (and anyone interested in the concept of property and how it can apply to this issue) might enjoy:

http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/proudhon/property/ch02.htm

Jeff Livingston

 

[spyglass]

"The concept of private property is only that, a concept."

But I bet you lock you lock your doors to keep people away from your private property.

 

[spyglass]

Here is a interesting answer .. the same thing that happened to the suppliers to the Horse and Buggy trade when the automobile was invented ! they move into more profitable and updated areas. but actually the primary manufacturers of "smoke eaters" are already making other healthy air conscious appliances and will be doing fine!

But the Horse and Buggy trade disappeared because of the free market. Some special interest group did not use government to eliminate the Horse and Buggy trade.

I think that is the most dangerous part of these smoking bans. The anti-drinkers and anti-fat special interest groups are fairly clamouring at the bit at the success of the anti-smokers. They consider the anti-smoking agenda their model for their own agendas.

It's amazing what a few well financed people can accomplish in this country.

 

[spyglass]

LOL>..First of all health conscious and pool player are at opposite ends of the spectrum. It is a daily event that a single mother or father will bring their newborn baby or young child in a smokefilled pool room at 2am and feed them skittles all night for dinner. Even with smoke eaters I can come in the next day and there is still smoke in the air from the night before. It literally takes weeks to clean the smell out of a place after that much smoke. I once put in healthy snacks in our snack cooler. I put in fresh fruit, muffins, bagels etc since pool players wanted more healthy choices. Funny...when they had the choice they complained I took out all the "good" foods. A month later the fruit had rotted, the muffins moldy and the bagels hard. I spent about $150 on healthy stuff and sold about $7 worth. Learned my lesson. I guess it goes hand in hand with guys that hang out in our pool room. They want to smoke, gamble, eat unhealthy food. I think they all have a death wish of sorts.

The government has a 1000 regulations that I must follow in order to stay in business. The latest one is sexual discrimination by gender based pricing. For 38 years we had ladies rates of half price. We also had free pool for ladies with a gentlemen escort. Now that is considered discriminatory and we charge the same rate. Guess what? All the customers that mooched off us for years of discounted pool complain that we wont hire and attorney to get the state to reverse the law. You know? Since it is all MY fault the law was passed.. The government regulates every single aspect of my business. From the hours I can be open to the required safety equipment my employees must wear like goggles and steel toe boots. From ladies rate pricing to electrical codes and safety exits. If you serve food you can add about ANOTHER 1000 regulations to follow.

Anyone on here that thinks you can do ANYTHING you want when you open a business really needs to come out of their cave. Owning a business has a lot of great perks, but it is not a dictatorship. It is still regulated for the safety of everyone involved. If you have exposed wiring, open sewer line, structural damage, you cannot be open to the public. It seems to me that a lot of posters here have never owned a business. Saying that if you get a fine just pay it and pay it again when you break the law again. It really doesn't work that way. Sell a beer to an underage kid, pay fine, sell again to underage kid, pay HUGE fine, sell to a third underage kid, lose liquor license, lose business license, get arrested, get on statewide watch list where you are photographed and not allowed to own any business again that has liquor involved, get charged with a felony and possibly go to prison. Whenever you start accumulating fines you many times have have your business license revoked for having a "problem business". Pool players may not care because they will just go to the next pool room.

As a business owner you do have a legal and moral responsibility to provide a workplace and gathering place that is healthy and safe. Smoking bans is no different that previous changes in the law. When I had to make $23,000 in improvements in electrical codes and add another fire exit to my business, no customers complained. Is anyone really so ignorant of business to think it didnt affect them? Did they think I had a big bucket of $100 dollar bills laying around to use? I had to take out a loan, raise prices on products to pay for it and pay it off over the next three years. One way or another customers eventually pay for all these safety issues. If not that means the business went under. The government already regulates what clothes the employees wear. It regulates what songs are on my jukebox. It regulates the paint on my walls and the carpet on my floors. All you can do is conform with all the regulations and vote politicians out of office that overregulate you or overtax you.

Guess I am done rambling for now....will go rest my typing fingers.

Sheesh, it's a wonder that small business survives at all.

I sometimes wonder if smoking bans are favored by the big chains as just another way to eliminate the competition. It was the independently owned clubs in Austin who were hit hardest by the smoking ban. In Houston, the smoking ban was supported by the Houston Restaurant Association. It seemed obvious they considered if people could not smoke in bars it might drive more business to restaurants.

 

[spyglass]

I do not understand the analogy! What in the world does a employees uniform or the music played in a business have to do with customers health and safety?

The nanny state is not going to stop with smoking. Since a private business is now a "public place" I have to wonder where it's going to stop.

For example, the Chicago Alderman who pushed through the Chicago smoking ban, as well as a ban on foie gras, and who is pushing through a ban on trans fats, has also pushed for a uniform for cabbies. http://www.chgofinancecomm.chi.il.us/announcements/2005/09142005cabbies.html

I don't see how the clothing a cabbie wears should be under government control.

 

[spyglass]

I do not understand the analogy! What in the world does a employees uniform or the music played in a business have to do with customers health and safety?

Since a private business is now a "public place" I am just wondering where the nanny state is going to stop.

Foe example, the Alderman who pushed through a smoking ban and a ban on foie gras in Chicago and is pushing for a ban on trans fats, has also pushed for uniforms for cabbies:
http://www.chgofinancecomm.chi.il.us/announcements/2005/09142005cabbies.html

 

[spyglass]

durn, didn't mean to post that twice.

 

[cueandcushion]

Sheesh, it's a wonder that small business survives at all.

I sometimes wonder if smoking bans are favored by the big chains as just another way to eliminate the competition. It was the independently owned clubs in Austin who were hit hardest by the smoking ban. In Houston, the smoking ban was supported by the Houston Restaurant Association. It seemed obvious they considered if people could not smoke in bars it might drive more business to restaurants.

Or maybe it lessens their legal liability when employees file workman's compensation claims for health problems related to second hand smoke. It also probably DRASTICALLY reduces thier health insurance premiums for employers making that benefit a bit more affordable. All businesses have to reduce thier legal liability in this sue happy society. It's the only reason I shovel my sidewalk in the winter, to avoid a lawsuit.