Your "first five" pointers...

WobblyStroke

Well-known member
Yes, we relieve the pressure (as you know) using other body weight through the arm, and by not adding any conscious pressure on most shots (hand on cloth, not rail).
There are certainly ways to carry more load without as much risk of overuse injury. Fran pointed out a really good one many snooker guys teach which isn't really feasible on a crowded pool table. But I just didn't understand your statement on how using the body to put weight on the bridge hand takes pressure off the shoulder or stresses it less. Whether a press or lean or whatever way we put weight on the hand, every joint between the hand and the mass being supported will have to carry some load and be stressed. The shoulder takes the brunt of it.
 

Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
OP, could you explain a little more about this?

''Put your weight onto your bridge''
 

WobblyStroke

Well-known member
OP, could you explain a little more about this?

''Put your weight onto your bridge''
It's been discussed. Just to make it stable and secure with a lil body weight so it isn't floaty. Then some points were raised about overdoing this leading to overuse injuries and shoulder stress. Some is good and solid. But too much will hurt after a while.
 

poolnut7879

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bring the cue back slowly
Watch ball go in pocket and be like a statue
Practice the stop shot
Have a plan even if you can not execute it yet
Play with a child’s like mind
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
There are certainly ways to carry more load without as much risk of overuse injury. Fran pointed out a really good one many snooker guys teach which isn't really feasible on a crowded pool table. But I just didn't understand your statement on how using the body to put weight on the bridge hand takes pressure off the shoulder or stresses it less. Whether a press or lean or whatever way we put weight on the hand, every joint between the hand and the mass being supported will have to carry some load and be stressed. The shoulder takes the brunt of it.
I teach pressing downward on the rail firmly for those shots where you hand bridge along the rail. Helps make the stance near-identical to the stance used for non-rail shots, and helps immobilize the body during the stroke.

However, we want people's bodies to feel good after play, and pressing down from the shoulder not only can hurt the shoulder, it tends to fold the bridge arm. By settling the weight into the floor from the feet, we can create a uniform pressure from the whole arm that puts less stress on the shoulder than, say, carrying a gallon of milk container with the hand.
 

ChrisWoj

Just some one eyed guy.
Silver Member
Glad you like my suggestion. But trust me on this, it's not an aging issue. I've seen perfectly healthy young people with shoulder pain from leaning too hard on their bridge hand. It's one of those repetition-type injuries that creep up on them over time. And by the way, if they're leaning hard on that side of their body, their stances are probably off as well, and will likely need a stance adjustment.

Some players prefer to put their entire arm down on the table, up to their elbow. If you're playing on a snooker table with lots of room to do that, I guess it's okay. But in pool, we don't have the luxury of space to do that. It's not something I would teach a pool player to do because it also requires a stance change, and it also puts the player's head closer to the cue ball. I don't like it.

See how something as basic as hand pressure can turn into something much bigger? LOL
I find everything after the first couple of sentences to be very compelling, and a great argument for moderating the weight you're putting forward in terms of stance, head distance from the cue. I will gladly incorporate that advice! But the physiology related stuff I gotta quibble with...

While I won't deny that it can happen to young people, I will absolutely disagree and I think a firm consensus of physiologists out there will agree with me that in terms of both structural weakness and behavioral weakness - shoulder injury prevalence clearly increases with age. A young person can have bad behaviors that lead to exposure of the shoulder joint when they shoot pool, as was almost certainly the result in the examples you've encountered of 'perfectly healthy young people' with shoulder injuries from leaning too heavily on their bridge hand.

Generally speaking, most soft tissue injuries are caused by shearing forces within the tissue structure. Early in childhood we develop physically while performing actions that involve different muscle activation patterns associated with supporting the joints not only using the immediate muscles, but by engaging the nearby muscle groups. This prevents the exposure of the joints to those forces over time. As we settle into what are largely sedentary lifestyles, most of us stop supporting the joints, like the shoulder and cuff, by properly engaging the muscles around them.

You provided compelling pool related points, and I bow to your expertise on the pool related points and will incorporate them into my learning.
Weight on the hand puts stress on the shoulder over time. More weight, more stress. That pressure coming from the lean of the body makes no difference and there is no way to avoid stressing the shoulder if you are going to include it for stability and carry weight on the bridge hand.

Met a young lady in her mid 20s last week complaining to my friend about her shoulder pain from all the extra hours of play she'd been putting in recently. Sure enough, her weight was quite forward and her shoulder was eating all that. It's a small thing, but after 1000s of shots, it adds up and gets sore even with what feels like you could do all day when you first try it.
More weight, more stress is an oversimplification, though. It is a specific type of stress, as I noted above to FranCrimi.

Proper use of the shoulder to support the body from, effectively, prone involves an entire shoulder-girdle of tissues, and includes the tissues of four separate joints - not just the glenohumeral. People who experience injuries supporting themselves while prone or getting up from prone do so because they are only engaging the glenohumeral, which is necessarily weak against forces acting on it from this direction in order to be as moveable as it is. However, you eliminate those shear forces when you engage the other three joints, taking the load on in the rest of the shoulder girdle, distributing the stress through three other much larger and more capable load bearing structures.

A good example of someone who understands this would be a yoga practitioner who engages frequently in arm-extended prone work, such as extended-planks. A person in an extended plank is, by virtue of position, exposing the glenohumeral joint to an extreme. However the extended plank does not provide much undue stress on the glenohumeral joint itself because the load is taken up by the protective sternoclavicular, acromioclavicular, and scapulothoracic joints. You can put quite a lot of weight on the shoulder for long periods of time, or thousands of times for short periods of time, without injury if you're engaging the shoulder girdle appropriately.
 

ChrisWoj

Just some one eyed guy.
Silver Member
OP, could you explain a little more about this?

''Put your weight onto your bridge''
To avoid the problem of a wobbly bridge, I was recommending really going over the top with weight on the bridge hand. Others in this thread have convinced me that the way I state it/intend it to be taken can cause other problems with the shot, so I'm definitely rethinking how to present the advice to avoid the wobbly bridge better in a single statement.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I find everything after the first couple of sentences to be very compelling, and a great argument for moderating the weight you're putting forward in terms of stance, head distance from the cue. I will gladly incorporate that advice! But the physiology related stuff I gotta quibble with...

While I won't deny that it can happen to young people, I will absolutely disagree and I think a firm consensus of physiologists out there will agree with me that in terms of both structural weakness and behavioral weakness - shoulder injury prevalence clearly increases with age. A young person can have bad behaviors that lead to exposure of the shoulder joint when they shoot pool, as was almost certainly the result in the examples you've encountered of 'perfectly healthy young people' with shoulder injuries from leaning too heavily on their bridge hand.

Generally speaking, most soft tissue injuries are caused by shearing forces within the tissue structure. Early in childhood we develop physically while performing actions that involve different muscle activation patterns associated with supporting the joints not only using the immediate muscles, but by engaging the nearby muscle groups. This prevents the exposure of the joints to those forces over time. As we settle into what are largely sedentary lifestyles, most of us stop supporting the joints, like the shoulder and cuff, by properly engaging the muscles around them.

You provided compelling pool related points, and I bow to your expertise on the pool related points and will incorporate them into my learning.
Well, I don't think we're disagreeing here. Of course, older people will be even more susceptible to injury due to repetitive strains than younger people. One player who came to me with intense shoulder pain from repetitive pressure was barely 30 years old. I don't consider that person old. Repetitive strain isn't always due to a sedentary lifestyle, as I'm sure you know. It could be due to bad form or just from an athlete overdoing it and not giving themself enough time to rest.

Just keep in mind that it's not up to us to decide at what age an injury might kick-in. Make sure they don't lean hard on their bridge hand, whatever age they are.
 

ChrisWoj

Just some one eyed guy.
Silver Member
Well, I don't think we're disagreeing here. Of course, older people will be even more susceptible to injury due to repetitive strains than younger people. One player who came to me with intense shoulder pain from repetitive pressure was barely 30 years old. I don't consider that person old. Repetitive strain isn't always due to a sedentary lifestyle, as I'm sure you know. It could be due to bad form or just from an athlete overdoing it and not giving themself enough time to rest.
We aren't disagreeing. As far as I can tell we're having a discussion. In this particular discussion, I think there is miscommunication causing a divergence between what you think I'm quibbling with and what I'm actually quibbling with.

I believe you took my initial response to you as saying things that I did not, in fact, say. Note that at no point in this conversation have I said that your advice is not good advice that would also apply to younger people. Not at the beginning, not in the middle, and not most recently. Only that it will be particularly useful as I get older, something empirically true even if the advice is true for all ages, and something particularly true for my situation as my initial response to you was focused on. It does not implicitly deny the utility as it would apply to young shooters.
Just keep in mind that it's not up to us to decide at what age an injury might kick-in. Make sure they don't lean hard on their bridge hand, whatever age they are.
But we definitely do decide what what age an injury might kick-in. Not specifically, but generally speaking: regularity and amount of water consumption, vitamin and nutrient consumption, the influence of alcohol on the recovery of soft tissues, the use of ice and NSAIDs which long term decrease pliability of tissue if consumed during recovery.... in addition to the notions I ventured in the earlier post regarding people basically 'forgetting' how to support their shoulder when forces are applied to it. We contribute to our own wear-and-tear and when that wear-and-tear will present as injury through our behaviors.
 

snookered_again

Well-known member
I think that being too lazy to go get the bridge is an easy way to create back strain. Next we are over extending ourselves. Probably good to get a newbie used to using it when it helps, and not just when they are completely unable to reach.
I find it happens often that a new person is not using it often enough, It's almost as if damages their pride or something..

Shoes are a big deal too.
 

snookered_again

Well-known member
Wingspan helps somewhat too... I've got a 6'3 wingspan on a 5'10 frame. I definitely appreciate every inch of extra comfortable reach on a table.
height is an advantage. I've met some very short players, also some who have various physical issues use the rack more because it helps them. Some of the elderly players kind of have issues with " the shakes" so the bridge can help.. It's very surprising how well some of those guys can shoot. I find it an honor to play elders with such experience under their belt. They also often have a more polite and dignified approach to the game, generally speaking of course.
 
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