Your thoughts on League Operators, Vegas, Trophies

[u12armresl]

Jumped back into a league after a very long layoff.
Things have apparently changed.

This is a Valley league, and the LO is a big company based out of a state that rhymes with Robiough.
Back in the day, if you won your league, you got to play in city, if you won or placed top 3 (depending on your place) you got state entries paid for, plus some food, etc.
You also got first place trophies/plaques and your sponsoring bar got a trophy/plaque.

Now the cost for state is

If you have any aspiration of playing Vegas, which let's be honest, most of us would like to do, you'll pay,

and for singles, you'll pay

I know APA takes care of some things however it works, but what happened to LO's sending teams, and picking up some of the cost?
What happened to trophies and plaques for the first or first three places?
Should the individual state tournaments be adding money instead of putting up a large number like $80,000* (smallest asterisk available) based on full fields in all events.

Your thoughts are welcome and appreciated.

 

[boogieman]

I just play local leagues. I've played a state event in a sanctioned league. It costs a lot of money to stay in a hotel 4 nights, pay food, drink, and $25 entry fee for each event. Unless you place 1st in multiple events, it's a net loss.

EDIT: Leagues are a way for the LO and the company running them to extract money from pool players. It's not charity and it's not for the good of the sport. It's cold hard cash.

 

[sam74]

When the team I played with in APA won a trip to Vegas back in 2008 it became apparent that not all LO's were required to provide the same assistance from talking with other teams there.

In our city tournament 4 teams won free trips to Vegas/nationals that included air fare, room, entry fee if there was any, and we even got maybe a couple hundred in cash apiece once we got there. We just had to pay for whatever else we did like gambling, food, and alcohol. We managed to stay in the tournament for 4 or 5 days which kept us pretty occupied so we didn't venture too far from the riveria.

I'm not sure if they still get that same deal or not but I suspect they do. Some of the other teams there got little to no assistance from what they told us.

 

[rexus31]

When the team I played with in APA won a trip to Vegas back in 2008 it became apparent that not all LO's were required to provide the same assistance from talking with other teams there.

In our city tournament 4 teams won free trips to Vegas/nationals that included air fare, room, entry fee if there was any, and we even got maybe a couple hundred in cash apiece once we got there. We just had to pay for whatever else we did like gambling, food, and alcohol. We managed to stay in the tournament for 4 or 5 days which kept us pretty occupied so we didn't venture too far from the riveria.

I'm not sure if they still get that same deal or not but I suspect they do. Some of the other teams there got little to no assistance from what they told us.

Did you get a 1099 from the LO for all the "free" prizes/compensation?

 

[sam74]

No 1099.

I had been playing in that league for about 10 years before getting to that point so I had some money invested. It was only $5 a week back then if you played league night. I know the nightly cost to play has gone up since then.

 

[Bob Jewett]

The money has to come from somewhere. So far as I know, the only source of income for leagues is from the players. You either pay a larger weekly fee or you pay event fees. Some leagues are run by volunteers who do it more or less for free. Some leagues have franchises that the LOs pay for and it is their full time job.

 

[u12armresl]

I just play local leagues. I've played a state event in a sanctioned league. It costs a lot of money to stay in a hotel 4 nights, pay food, drink, and $25 entry fee for each event. Unless you place 1st in multiple events, it's a net loss.

EDIT: Leagues are a way for the LO and the company running them to extract money from pool players. It's not charity and it's not for the good of the sport. It's cold hard cash.

It's not a $25 entry, that's part of the point.

 

[rexus31]

I just play local leagues. I've played a state event in a sanctioned league. It costs a lot of money to stay in a hotel 4 nights, pay food, drink, and $25 entry fee for each event. Unless you place 1st in multiple events, it's a net loss.

Welcome to pool. It's the same for the professionals.

EDIT: Leagues are a way for the LO and the company running them to extract money from pool players. It's not charity and it's not for the good of the sport. It's cold hard cash.

"Extract" is a harsh word. It's not like payers aren't getting anything for their money. In most instances, they pay a nominal fee to play. Some folks pay the sanctioning organization for the franchise (territory) and use the proceeds from running/growing the league as their income. I see no issue in operating a league as a source of income. It's a business.

 

[ChrisSjoblom]

I think at least for the Valley leagues it has always been up to the LO as to how much subsidizing they will do for a team to go to Vegas. Back in the mid 90s I played in a VNEA league in Madison, WI. The LO was the local coin-op vendor, and they covered most of the cost for the first-place team in each league to make the trip, (air fare, hotel, entry fees) but required each team member to put up $200 IIRC.

Four of the five members of the first-place team in my league declined, saying they either couldn't afford it or couldn't get the time off from work. The LO got on the phone and started calling other league players in order of their rank in the league, offering them the same deal. She was able to fill a team before she got past the top 10, but because we were not all from the same team we were considered an "all star" team and had to enter the Masters division even though none of us had ever been to anything bigger than a weekly bar tournament.

Geez, talk about a quick exit from a tournament! I think we set some kind of record for the fastest two and out appearance. The format was five-man teams playing round robin, so a possible 25 games. Of course, the match ended when one team got to 13 wins regardless of the overall score. We got beat in the first match by I believe 13-4 or 13-5. Afterwards, we found out that the team that beat us had won the Masters division the year before, so we felt a little better about the big loss. After all, we already had the toughest team in the field behind us, right? The second team we played beat us 13-2 and went on to win the Masters division that year!

With plenty of time to kill a couple of us entered a bunch of the singles mini tournaments and had some decent success in them at least. It was fun watching some of the other matches and visiting the vendor booths, too. We also rented a car and did a lot of bar/strip club/casino hopping, pawn shopping and sight seeing. All in all it was a really good time, but I did learn that seven or eight days in Vegas is way too long if you are not making a deep run in the tournament.

 

[sam74]

Yeah our LO owned a franchise/territory so our city tourney included some folks from outside the city but in the franchise area. Everyone (area divisions) had a playoff spring, summer, and winter sessions locally to earn qualifying spots in the city tournament which happened once a year. 1st, 2nd, and 3rd normally got plaques or trophies every session.

The LO is a business owner who is trying to grow participation and their personal income.

I overall enjoyed the experience but some people take things a bit too serious and there is normally some BS drama at some point. It is for the most part a bar league so that is to be expected.

I think weekly dues actually got increased from $5 to $6 over that 10 year period. Weekly dues are probably $8 or more by now. They also play a 9 ball league now and even have a separate ladies only night now when it used to be 8 ball mixed one night a week. The place I used to play at now has league at least 3 nights a week. It is good for the bars if players spend money and good for the LO also. Players get some positives as well.

 

[hang-the-9]

Our local TAP league does not have any entry fees for teams events, but does not send many teams to the nationals and it's a very cheap trip. The singles they do have a $50 entry fee for the qualifier and not sure about the final event.

USAPL in my area only had league dues, and sent several teams to Vegas for nationals, as well as running 3 singles events free to play in for individual trips to Vegas, all included flight, room and tournament entry fee.

 

[Scrunge19]

Do all leagues not have established payout/prize fund breakdowns? I’ve only played like 1.5 seasons of APA so I can’t really speak to that league, but my areas BCA/USAPL leagues both specified what the prize fund was each year.

It’s $35/week per team ($7 a person) to play, with 50% of that going to the prize fund, 25% going to the national organization, and 25% going to our local operator.

 

[boogieman]

I see no issue in operating a league as a source of income. It's a business.

I agree, and "extract" may have been a bit harsh, but people think it's a charity thing or to promote pool. It's not, it's a business. It's not the LO job to pay your entry fees.

 

[skip100]

Worth noting that sending a team of people to Vegas is a lot more expensive than it used to be.

 

[u12armresl]

I agree, and "extract" may have been a bit harsh, but people think it's a charity thing or to promote pool. It's not, it's a business. It's not the LO job to pay your entry fees.

Worth noting that sending a team of people to Vegas is a lot more expensive than it used to be.

Yes it is. So not only do you not get a trip to vegas if you win your division at state, you don't get a trip to state if you win your league division.
The cost is going up and the payouts are going down.

 

[u12armresl]

Any other thoughts on this?

 

[Rickhem]

In the area where I live, you mostly have APA leagues, but there are some TAP and NAPA leagues as well. I've only played in a couple TAP leagues, and they feel similar to APA without the "Trip To Vegas" goal. I do kind of prefer the NAPA format. In NAPA, all scoring is done electronically, and I know APA has that too, but NAPA is just who won a game, not innings or defensive shots or anything else. I've been playing "Lagger's Choice" in NAPA, which means it could be either 8 ball, 9 ball, or 10 ball for a match. And you have a different handicap or skill level for each, so the races are different, it adds a little complexity, but I like it. After a bunch of years playing APA now, the whole "Trip To Vegas" thing seems like a carrot and a stick kinda thing. So few teams actually get that when you look at the numbers, and like was mentioned previously, it really doesn't cover much for that trip (so I've heard, never got there myself) NAPA has a bunch of regional and national tournaments, and you don't have to win locally to go, just pay your entry fee and play. They do have tiers for entrance fees based upon how many matches you have in the system, and I guess that is how they combat sand-bagging. TAP has their big thing in Philly or Valley Forge, and I'd love to go to that sometime, I have a lot of friends that have gone and had a great time. Both TAP and NAPA leagues just pay cash at the end of the session. One NAPA operator even paid out for things like Break-and-runs, 8 on the break, and rackless matches, money not patches. Only a couple bucks each, but if you got a few then that adds up. I just prefer not having that ultimate goal of the Vegas trip for a team be all the league offers.

 

[eastcoast_chris]

I really don't understand the existence of all these leagues that skim off a lot of money. We have nothing like that locally. Once someone tried to run an APA model around here and people laughed in their face (regarding the finances).

We luckily have individuals (I was one for a few years) that run the BCA or CCS (Canadian version of ACS) leagues and take nothing in return. It really isn't that hard to do and it is interesting/fun for people that have the aptitude to that type of thing. We get them sanctioned with the BCA and/or the ACS/CSS ... cost about $20 a person to do so.

Most leagues are $20 a week, with $15 going into the prize fun and $5 going to the venue for tables time. Cheap pool really and the chance to win money at the end of the year. The venues love having us there since most people have a few drinks, etc. each night.

I've been on trips to Vegas about 13 times through the leagues... always at least partially funded by league payouts. Going again in May!

 

[Jack Fate]

Jumped back into a league after a very long layoff.
Things have apparently changed.

This is a Valley league, and the LO is a big company based out of a state that rhymes with Robiough.
Back in the day, if you won your league, you got to play in city, if you won or placed top 3 (depending on your place) you got state entries paid for, plus some food, etc.
You also got first place trophies/plaques and your sponsoring bar got a trophy/plaque.

Now the cost for state is
View attachment 692034
If you have any aspiration of playing Vegas, which let's be honest, most of us would like to do, you'll pay,

View attachment 692035
and for singles, you'll pay
View attachment 692036

I know APA takes care of some things however it works, but what happened to LO's sending teams, and picking up some of the cost?
What happened to trophies and plaques for the first or first three places?
Should the individual state tournaments be adding money instead of putting up a large number like $80,000* (smallest asterisk available) based on full fields in all events.

Your thoughts are welcome and appreciated.

Played VNEA for 20 years about 20 years ago .
Always found it interesting to hear about the other league systems. APA was an hour away, likewise BCA . I had zero interest in state or national events as my job requirements didn’t allow it. I always wondered where the money went as the local payout was terrible. Only first place teams got paid entry and that was all they got ( for state and national) . The last few years a friend and teammate found local tournaments that were about an hour away & every day of the week. Found this to be monetarily much more prosperous and didn’t require the commitment.I met some good people & a few not so much playing league and that’s the value I took away .

I

 

[Jack Fate]

In the area where I live, you mostly have APA leagues, but there are some TAP and NAPA leagues as well. I've only played in a couple TAP leagues, and they feel similar to APA without the "Trip To Vegas" goal. I do kind of prefer the NAPA format. In NAPA, all scoring is done electronically, and I know APA has that too, but NAPA is just who won a game, not innings or defensive shots or anything else. I've been playing "Lagger's Choice" in NAPA, which means it could be either 8 ball, 9 ball, or 10 ball for a match. And you have a different handicap or skill level for each, so the races are different, it adds a little complexity, but I like it. After a bunch of years playing APA now, the whole "Trip To Vegas" thing seems like a carrot and a stick kinda thing. So few teams actually get that when you look at the numbers, and like was mentioned previously, it really doesn't cover much for that trip (so I've heard, never got there myself) NAPA has a bunch of regional and national tournaments, and you don't have to win locally to go, just pay your entry fee and play. They do have tiers for entrance fees based upon how many matches you have in the system, and I guess that is how they combat sand-bagging. TAP has their big thing in Philly or Valley Forge, and I'd love to go to that sometime, I have a lot of friends that have gone and had a great time. Both TAP and NAPA leagues just pay cash at the end of the session. One NAPA operator even paid out for things like Break-and-runs, 8 on the break, and rackless matches, money not patches. Only a couple bucks each, but if you got a few then that adds up. I just prefer not having that ultimate goal of the Vegas trip for a team be all the league offers.

Interesting , I like the winner gets to call the game this would be a neat twist to have in a tournament