Zero X System

"If you get too hung up on being a 'student of the game,' such as the use of pool terminology, rather than focusing on being mentally prepared; understanding strategy; knowing effective systems; practicing diligently and maintaining confidence, you will become a player who loses his or her money to the person who's focused on being a 'player of the game.'" ~Tor Lowry

I love the quote above by Tor. It pretty much sums it up for me. I just want to play pool and continue getting better, not allowing "noise" to affect my game. I remember watching Tor Lowry shoot pool against some top-notch players in the early 1990's, and was almost intimidated by his sharp focus. Watching him play is like watching a cobra ready to strike a targeted victim with a deadly bite.

I love that Tor has publicly returned to the pool world and appreciate his willingness to provide me and others who want to improve their game with several hours of instruction for only $8.99. I would give up over half of my collection of videos I've amassed over the years for just one of Tor's videos and can't wait to receive his banking video.

As for this forum, I'm new here and would like to participate without fearing a potential verbal assault by another. To me, pool has always been a sport which afforded me the opportunity to meet others who were kind and shared a common goal - to continue growing their arsenal of strategies and techniques, allowing them to be better at the game. I've won some and I've lost plenty. I know I would lose a lot more if I ever allowed myself to become a person who thinks all is known by me and that I could not continue learning from others who play the game. I've even learned useful things from players who are not nearly as good as me, and I wouldn't say that I'm anything beyond an average player.

It would be great if more seasoned players, especially players who can provide us with quality instructional materials like Tor, would participate in these forums. I view that as an unlikely scenario when I try to wear the shoes of any one of them. Being new to this forum I was hopeful to connect with people who would share their knowledge with me; knowledge which would help me improve my game. My personal opinion is, and I refer back to Tor's quote, that I'd rather learn a new technique that helps me make a shot I could never make before than spend too much time caring about what it's called. If knowing something is accurately called a "tangent" line, frankly I'd be grateful to here it called a "contact" line. Otherwise, I guarantee I would be rewinding the video. Just let me hear the message and learn in the most simplified manner and I'm ready to run with the lessons, and practice as much as necessary to master something new.

Kudos to Tor for providing me that opportunity with his great videos. I'll look forward to small tournament play or simple match-ups with the "students of the game," and happily win. I'll never be the "cobra" Tor is, but I will continue growing in my game so that my share of wins becomes greater. :wink:
 
It would be great if more seasoned players, especially players who can provide us with quality instructional materials like Tor, would participate in these forums.
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The Nit Pickers chased most away unfortunately. Jealousy that someone else in the pool world quite possibly knew as much or more than they did.

They had better things to do than deal with the grief.

Whats the difference if a person chooses to call it a Target line instead of a Tangent line. Maybe that is the way they learned.

Anyway, I got a ton of value from the Kicking video and also the Free video. I for one will be looking forward to more instructional vids from Tor.

I do hope that Tor decides to drop in on us. Up until yesterday, the thread was going great until the usual suspects showed up.
 
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That's too bad because I would love to see more great players sharing videos or even easy to follow written or illustrated tips. Even though some of the material presented in the 80 minute free video by Tor was basic, I learned a great deal which was useful to me, after about the 30 minute mark. Even the material presented earlier in the video gave me more confidence and reinforced for me that I was doing some things properly and even well, or in some instances, better than many.

If you have any advice as to any other forums where I can find great tips, I would appreciate it. I do not want to spend a great deal of time becoming a part of a forum which does not serve to advance my base of useful knowledge. There seems to be enough in the world to worry about, without adding to it the negativity which could come from a forum that does not serve a good purpose. I would love to feel connected to a group of people who rather would choose to share in a way which does not make me feel unwelcome or intimidated in any way and I would bet money, I'm not alone in that regard. I only started playing pool as a way to relax and have fun and would be devastated to feel as if I would have to turn away from something I love for finding it to be too negative. I simply admit I could not keep up with a discussion about the mechanics of pool as it relates to complicated words or ways of describing things. Hope that makes sense and it is very nice to meet you.
 
Blue Hog ridr said:
The Nit Pickers chased most away unfortunately. Jealousy that someone else in the pool world quite possibly knew as much or more than they did.

They had better things to do than deal with the grief.

Whats the difference if a person chooses to call it a Target line instead of a Tangent line. Maybe that is the way they learned.

Anyway, I got a ton of value from the Kicking video and also the Free video. I for one will be looking forward to more instructional vids from Tor.

I do hope that Tor decides to drop in on us. Up until yesterday, the thread was going great until the usual suspects showed up.
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This is a pure bullshit post by you, meant to do nothing but inflame. YOU asked a question to me. Forgive me for being stupid enough to actually answer you. Again, you nitpick one line, and don't bother actually reading the rest of what I wrote. Congratulations on being the type of person you really are. You don't have to worry about me anymore, as I no longer have any desire to help people like you that are only here to stir up shit for their sick entertainment. If you aren't intelligent enough to understand what I said and why, you are too stupid to learn anything anyways. Up yours. You had two choices, actually read and try and understand what was said and why, and thereby gain more out of the video, or you could just not read it with the comprehension even a 5th grader should have, and instead just pile on for your entertainment. I'm not running off anyone, but you and the other jerks like you are and have. Have a good day. And ruining the thread is on the obvious losers like you, John, and few others. Enjoy the shit-hole you guys are turning the threads into.:angry: It's not the first time you pulled this stunt, and shame on me for falling for it again. Won't happen again.
 
This is but one example I have seen which makes me want to implore others to guide me to a forum where people can "agree to disagree" and discuss rather than argue, especially if it involves name-calling. Suggestions from anybody would be very welcomed and appreciated. I am not accustomed to navigating this forum and do not yet know the proper way to participate, but I am still able to "see" exchanges as this, which make me feel worried that I am in the wrong place. Thank you for "listening" and understanding to anybody who might kindly respond with a suggestion.
 
MyImmortal said:
This is but one example I have seen which makes me want to implore others to guide me to a forum where people can "agree to disagree" and discuss rather than argue, especially if it involves name-calling. Suggestions from anybody would be very welcomed and appreciated. I am not accustomed to navigating this forum and do not yet know the proper way to participate, but I am still able to "see" exchanges as this, which make me feel worried that I am in the wrong place. Thank you for "listening" and understanding to anybody who might kindly respond with a suggestion.
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Neil says "up yours" to Blue Hog and you want to go somewhere else? It's a free country, but I'd stay right here if I were you.

Personally, I'm settling in for a long night...
 
Just be yourself. There will be people who will try to bait you. It is the nature of the forum. All you have to do is ignore them. There are many people here with your disposition and they are polite, kind, and helpful. For each one who is helpful there will be a jerk in any of several ways. We all know who they are and basically ignore them until they have something constructive to say.

As I said, there are many good people here. Hang around and you will meet them little by little. The rest require a thick skin and the ability to ignore.

There are many things that you can learn here and there are many referrals to other places that will add to your game.

Several people have noted that when the pool wars start they grab a bag of pop corn and watch the silliness.
 
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No not at all. I am brand new to AZ and it is likely I just had a negative first thread experience. My experience in the pool community in general has been very positive, so I am sure I will discover a way here which connects me to some great content sharers and people from whom I will learn a great deal. Thank you for your suggestion.
 
Thank you. I know no other way than to just be myself. I am sure forums are similar to other forms of social media, like Facebook or Twitter. Navigating this forum is just too new, so I am sure, as you say, it will just take some time and patience to "connect." In reviewing some threads, I can now see many examples of people being very helpful in a kind way.
 
I think that one of the things you will find is that some people seem to take offense more easily on the forum. Perhaps they are too literal when reading another person's post. This literal interpretation leads to self righteous indignation and the need to defend one's self in a public forum so as not to be perceived as less knowledgeable.

When two (or more) of these people interact it results in a war of words. It is easy to be misunderstood when only words are used. I have found that in private messages many of these people are quite nice. They just don't handle misunderstandings very well. It is quite easy to fall into this trap and to find yourself saying things that you later regret.

I have found that when I get angry when forum members say something offensive it is best to sit on my hands for 24 hours before responding. Later, I can respond in a more reasonable way.

It takes a while to get used to life on the forums.
 
And if you really can't stand to see what a certain person is saying you can always add them to your ignore list :smile:
A very useful tool
 
This video is awesome and taught me a great deal about 9 Ball position play. The drill shown in this video is one of my selected drills to fulfill one of my pool-related resolutions for the new year. I want to be able to consistently run out this particular 9 ball pattern. In studying this video I was able to detect what normally are my own miscues, especially where draw is involved. Now I am making corrections and practicing; determined to continue the drill until I can meet my resolution.

This is one aspect of what I referred to earlier. I appreciate so much when I can find instructional material from anybody online which is so simple for me to follow and actually benefit from. I will definitely gain a great deal from this guy's Kicking video and if the Banking video is even half as good, I'll be very pleased. Two hours of easy to follow instruction will provide me with many new practice areas which can only serve to improve my game, my only goal. To receive that and so much more for only $8.99 is even better! If anybody can point me in the direction of more great learning videos, please bring it on! Thank you. :smile: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NGB0GqjO1Y
 
froze

I bought it last night watched half of it came back tonight it wont go past second segment 20 min. help
 
Neil said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
Let me re-iterate that he did a good job on the video. However, I strongly believe that if someone is going to do a video, they should at least take a look at what info is out there, and make sure that the info on their own video is factual and true and not just their own belief. If they want to put their own beliefs out there, that's fine as long as it is stated as such.

Quote by JohnTrue but I didn't see anything that he said that is not true.

Then either you didn't pay attention at all with the intent to actually learn something, but just wanted to be entertained, or with all your posts on here, and supposedly knowledge, you still don't know what a stun shot is supposed to do.
Quote:
In his free video, he refers to the pendulum stroke as the compact stroke. He apparently doesn't realize all the info out there about it.

Quote John:That is not apparent. What is clear is that he has a type of stroke that he says will cover about all situations. And in fact it does.


Yet, if I started referring to you as Bob, instead of John, you would say it is apparent that I don't know about you. hmmm... And, do I really need to search your posts for the times you were knocking the pendulum stroke as NOT doing all some of us claimed it would?

Quote:
When it comes to aiming, he advocates the ghost ball. That's all well and good, but very, very, few people actually do use the ghost ball to aim. It's great for illustration, but not much more than that for most.

quote John:For beginners GB is the best way to describe aiming in my opinion. And actually, GB does work and can be hugely effective IF one is capable of visualizing and holding onto an imaginary ball. Using graphics as Tor does is a great way to show it on video.

Sorry there weren't pictures in my post so you could understand it better, but that's the same thing I said. So, why even comment on it and say the same thing unless you are trying to start something instead of learn something?

Quote:
He then goes on to say that any other system won't work. Well, he is dead wrong on that one. There are quite a few aiming systems out there that do work just fine. He then states that they won't work because you have to use english sometimes. Well, ghost ball won't work then either for the same reason.

Quote John:I missed that part where he said this.

Then why even comment on what I said?

Quote:
He also doesn't seem to realize there is a thing called CIT, (collision induced throw), which means the ghost ball really doesn't work as he describes either. It also means that you can't make a rail shot the way he describes.

Quote John:That is certainly an omission but honestly most shots can be made without adjusting for CIT imo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...M1fySNE#t=745s

So, you agree with what I said, but still felt the need to comment against it. hmm... And, maybe you need to study up on CIT again, or are you only shooting shots a foot from the pocket? Whether you do it consciously or subconsciously, you do have to adjust for it.

Quote:
He says the way he applies english is a big secret. Well, it's not. It's called BHE or back hand english, and has been around for a long time. He also doesn't understand it by the way he describes it and uses it. He also stated there is a lot there you won't see anywhere else. Yet, I couldn't find a single item that isn't in almost any worthwhile book, or hasn't been talked about a lot on here. And, when showing how to get "on line", if you notice, he ISN'T on line with the cue. His cue doesn't get on line until he steers it there in the final stroke.

Quote John:I need to watch that section again. But as for BHE being a secret, it kind of was for a long time. Bob Jewett says that he saw it referenced in 1870 but I don't think he has ever published that reference for us to see. Since 1870 up until about ten years ago though it wasn't put in any books that I read and certainly not in Bob Byrne's Standard Book of Pool which is/was sort of a template for instruction books.

So you agree that it has been published for at least ten years now, but just felt like you just had to knock something I said.

Quote:
His explanation of how to get a stun shot was a little lacking. Rarely are you going to actually hit dead center cb. And, he doesn't seem to be familiar with the term tangent line. A number of times in his pattern play, he stated that a stun shot will go here, yet, in reality, a stun shot would not go where he thinks it would. Prime example is when he has an ob a little off the rail and is hitting it at an angle. He states that the stun shot will bring it straight across table. It doesn't unless the ob is on the rail.

Quote John:Dude, this is a free video and it's not the be all end all of pool instruction. If someone were to diligently apply the lessons contained they would become a decent enough player. The positives here far far far outweigh the negatives.

So, because it's free, no one is allowed to comment on it unless they say "Kumbaya, another freebie!", is that right? No comment was made on any omissions of pool instruction, so why make the comment you did? Oh, yeah, you just want to bust my balls. Did I not say that it was good overall, or did you not read that either? Is this free video not a lead in to show some of his instruction so you will buy his other material? And, does being free mean that we allowed to put up any old thing we want, whether right or wrong, and not get comments on it? Did I merely point out a few errors to others could actually have a little incentive to check out the material before they took it as gospel, or.... are you just being defensive because your videos that you put up on
CTE caught a lot of flack about being wrong? (which, by the way, you eventually had to go back and admit how wrong you were with them.But, I do give you credit for trying to help. At least what I have said here is correct, yet you still feel the need to "chastise" me for pointing out errors. Guess you and others would rather not care about whether the info you are getting is correct or not.)

Quote John:Also I don't understand where he shot any shots that don't go where he said they will go. On the video he demonstrated them. Do you think that he is intentionally misleading folks to make his point?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...M1fySNE#t=745s

John, really? This is exactly what I talked about with taking things out of context, and not actually reading what is written. I'm talking about stun shots, and you post a link to aiming. Really?? I even explained what I was talking about with his errors in the stun shots in the pattern section, and you still only read what you wanted to read, and not what was actually written. I even said "pattern play", so why would you even go to the aiming part of his video? I clearly pointed out where, and what I was referring to, and even said the "why". That you missed it completely, is on you, not me. You want me to supply links, here you go-http://www.learningrx.com/reading-comprehension-skills.htm
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It was an accident Neil. I was trying to post the part of the videos that pertained to your comments.

Now, I should have been much more sensitive to your particular sensitivity about instructors being praised. I am not as good a student of the technical intricacies of the game as you are. I don't read every post and every thread on every technical aspect of pool. I am not sure if you are actually referring to me when you are talking about "saying that the pendulum stroke doesn't...." because I am pretty sure, not 100% sure but 99% sure, that I have never said anything about the pendulum stroke until this moment on AZB or any forum.

Now, having said all that I will still tell you that I think it's counterproductive to only criticize a person's material without providing links to the proof.

This is just me but I normally do try to go to the source of my assertions and provide links to their material to back up my points. You make several assumptions about what you think Tor does or does not know but yet you assume that the readers will either know you are right or simply accept your claims as gospel.

Why not back them up with links to Dr. Dave's material then? Is is too much trouble for you who probably knows just where to go to find the right videos to go there and copy/paste the links?

Last thing, regarding CTE I have never said I was wrong about the way I go about using CTE because I have never said that I am right. I have said repeatedly in just about every video that I am a student and this is what I know at the time I made the video. I generally provide links to Stan's website, to Mohrt's website, to Spidey's website, and anywhere else that I think that the viewer's can be better served than with my limited presentation. I have acted and continue to act as a cheerleader for this method of aiming and am sure to tell people that I am NOT an instructor. I invite conversation and instruction.

What I have done however is to take on the various challenges put out there by the anti-CTE crowd and see if CTE (as I use it) works and put those experiments on video. I have found to my own satisfaction that CTE works in every challenge. Would it work even better if I did it "right"? I can only think that it would.

You are a much better player than me. I am certain that you can show and execute any technique better than I can. Why not put your own brand on instruction and make some videos? Don't leave it up to hacks like me and instructors you don't agree with. Put your own material up and make it part of the fabric that makes this game great.
 
Neil said:
other disparaging remarks snipped....
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Sorry John, to me info is important, and has to be accurate. I only have one life with so much time, and I don't like it wasted with incorrect info that to you is close enough. And, I take great offense at anyone that wants to knock me, make fun of me, ect. for doing my best to only give correct info, state when it is only an opinion, and for taking the time to correct bad info on here. That you and others find "sport" in it, is sickening, and shows you are only here for entertainment and not knowledge. And, if you are here for knowledge, and don't care if it is accurate, then what use is that knowledge? [/COLOR]
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You think that I am ridiculing you for being accurate? Not at all. I am teasing you a little for being obstinate.

As for accuracy....on the pool table it's ALL relative to many factors as to what REALLY happens at any given moment. You say that x-happens and I take it to the table and find that y-happens. Why is that? Because of my stroke, the condition of the balls, humidity of the day, quality of the rails, cloth type and condition, the chalk used, deflection of the cue, aiming method used, and so on......

We have Dr. Dave's scientific slow motion videos and ultra-dry academic narration on one side and we have practical demonstration on the other side. What's the "truth"? Which one is more accurate, which one is more helpful?

I have been instructed by players who couldn't spell tangent line if you gave them five tries and a dictionary. But to paraphrase Eddie Felson they could shoot the eyes right off them balls. And I have been instructed by players who know more systems inside and out than people even know exist. What I have found in the 32 years that I have been playing is that just about everyone has something of value to offer in some way.

Even if all they have to offer is a demonstration of doing things the "wrong" way it's still helpful.

Now I know you think that this is somehow personal but it's not. I took the shots to the table that Tor did in the video. I went to the table with your criticisms and tested them out. I found that on my table with slight variations Tor's instruction held up just as he laid it out.

I found that I could hit the object ball at an angle near a rail with a stun shot and watch it come almost straight across the table. I could do the same going up and down the table. The information on the tangent/contact line was well presented, makes perfect sense AND most important was practically demonstrated using game situations.

So again Neil, my point is that when one actually goes to the table and tries the shots then one will either find that they work as shown or that they don't and if they don't then the shooter will have to ascertain why they don't. Which could be because of any of the variables mentioned above.

The guy says clearly that one should get their stroke in order first and says one should do 2000-3000 reps of shooting an object ball into a pocket and keeping the cue on line with the follow through. Perhaps if most of us did that then we would indeed find out that pool looks a lot different when we have true control over the stroke.

Anyway, you do whatever you need to do Neil. If you think that correcting what you think is bad info without linking to the good info is the way to save the world then by all means continue. I prefer to attempt to see the world through Efren's eyes and try to learn from everyone I come across.

Hope your 2013 is peaceful and productive.
 
First of all Neil, this was a perfectly good thread until you decided to pop in.

Everyone was happy with the Free video and the great deal on the Kicking Video.

I don't recall anyone asking you to critique Tors work. But, being typical Neil that you are, you can't resist.

This is where it starts.

However, he does get some of the material wrong, and other parts he partially gets, but seems to be missing the whole picture on it
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Pretty low blow for a start don't you think. He seems to be missing the Whole picture? Not just a little bit but the Whole Picture. WOW!

And then you go to:

If I really wanted to get nitpicky, there are a number of little things, but I don't see the need to go there.
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Another low blow by Neil. Why did you feel the need to go there in the first place?

And yet another one:

why would I put up a video when there are plenty on the subjects already by Dr. Dave and Bob Jewett? Why don't you go watch theirs if you really want to learn something?
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Directing people to watch Dave and Bob's videos, as if to say, hey Tor's videos are nothing but crap, if you really want to learn something go here.

And here is the real hypocritical part along with another Swan song.

Aw, forget it, there is no point in trying to explain anything to people that are just here to knock others and not actually learn anything. Go think what you want, I'm tired of this crap. I gave this place a second chance, and it's just not worth it.
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No one was knocking anything re Tor's videos until you came along.
So here he is knocking Tor's videos and being his usual passive aggressive self blaming others for knocking him.

And like Wow, you gave AZ a second chance. Are we ever privileged.

OK, so here is the really good passive aggressive post.

This is a pure bullshit post by you, meant to do nothing but inflame. YOU asked a question to me. Forgive me for being stupid enough to actually answer you. Again, you nitpick one line, and don't bother actually reading the rest of what I wrote. Congratulations on being the type of person you really are. You don't have to worry about me anymore, as I no longer have any desire to help people like you that are only here to stir up shit for their sick entertainment. If you aren't intelligent enough to understand what I said and why, you are too stupid to learn anything anyways. Up yours. You had two choices, actually read and try and understand what was said and why, and thereby gain more out of the video, or you could just not read it with the comprehension even a 5th grader should have, and instead just pile on for your entertainment. I'm not running off anyone, but you and the other jerks like you are and have. Have a good day. And ruining the thread is on the obvious losers like you, John, and few others. Enjoy the shit-hole you guys are turning the threads into. It's not the first time you pulled this stunt, and shame on me for falling for it again. Won't happen again.
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Blaming me for trying to inflame this thread when all I did was keep this thread bumped as much as I could and tried to keep everyone enthusiastic
and informed on these 2 videos.

And he says: Enjoy the Shit - Hole you guys are turning the threads into.
Really Neil, it was a great thread until you turned into a crap pile. What a Hypocrite. You seem to have a propensity for this type of behavior.

Immortal, all you have to do is read Neils posts and you can see what the deal is.

He thinks he knows a little about the game and he has to try and rub everyone's nose in it and then he gets all Butt Hurt if someone says anything or disagrees with him.

Like I said Neil, A perfectly great thread until you decided to drop in and stir the pot. Re read your posts. You should actually be ashamed of yourself.

Thanks for destroying the thread. I also invited Tor to join AZ and I'd be willing to bet that he read this thread and decided not to join.

BTW - Tor probably isn't making a million giving away an instructional video and selling the other for 9 bucks. Did you even consider that you may have hurt his sales by your unwarranted critique in this thread? No, you wouldn't have thought of that would you. Would be the end of the world if someone did that to you tho.

Go eat some crayons, short bus.
 
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*thread killed...*

Hi all,

just my humble opinion.
But i really have to say, that in my opinion it s a bit unfair to bash "just* Neil because he WOULD be the person who killed a thread.
He didn t write really something that is not true. Furthermore he was also asked to write his opinion. And additional he also said clear, that he also *liked* the video (overall ).

I don t think, that he really thought before his postings, that it would ve been taken so negative.

I personally agree with some of Bob Jewett s and Neil s opinions.

____________________
The video itself is really nicely done. But as Bob said (and also Neil) there are some things, which had been better also shown up buy the *instructor*.
I for myself will not name here all things which came into my mind. Everyone also has another point of view for what he expects. No instructional video will cover all expectations-none on this planet. Furthermore there are no *unknown* gem s in billiards. They all had been released already somewhere, some may had been explained in other words and so on.
So at least it s all just about the way someone transfers his stuff/knowledge. And that s a great thing- here imho good instructors seperate themselves from other instructors, to be able to *find the contact* to his student, so that he will understand!

but both videos (kicks and free) are good. And i am very sure, that the next video from this guy will be better- he just has to take some positive things out of this discussions.

And it wasn t just Neil -- there are enough guys who jumped in, to kill this thread (if we could call this *killing* for some reason....... ).

Never had a problem with Neil anyway- i like his postings usually because as far i know are always from a knowledged background.
And if somebody don t like negative comments, discussions, or advices somehow, then he never should post something in an open forum!

lg from overseas,

ingo
 
MyImmortal said:
No not at all. I am brand new to AZ and it is likely I just had a negative first thread experience. My experience in the pool community in general has been very positive, so I am sure I will discover a way here which connects me to some great content sharers and people from whom I will learn a great deal. Thank you for your suggestion.
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Posting tip: Use the "Quote" button at the bottom of each post to show who you're talking to.

pj
chgo
 
This is a free video that I liked!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkAHpAucBho

Its about how to aim every ball as center ball hit and add various english on the last second (just before tip hits the CB), without any aiming adjustments.

Great video, something very interesting for ppl (like me) that use and love the "center CB" aiming systems :)
 
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