Zero-X vs. VEPS

SARDiver

JCC Chief
Silver Member
I've seen the reviews for both Tor Lowry's and Dr. Dave's VEPS videos. I'm having trouble deciding between the two. I know both are excellent, but have slightly different styles. I've seen both on You Tube.

I have played most of my life, but have never received any formal instruction (although I plan to make a trip to Oregon to learn from Robin Dreyer. I understand he's the very best.) I can run a rack of 9B unless the layout is really screwball, but my favorite game is 14.1. I can see the layout and know what SHOULD be done to get through a rack, but my accuracy sometimes leaves me disappointed.

I'm an engineer by trade, but am also fairly right-brained, in that I love to paint and enjoy creativity that goes well beyond strict limitations of orthodoxy. (I say that because it looks like VEPS is very much geared towards the left-brained.)

I could use some help in this decision. Any thoughts?
 

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
They are both good, and both different enough that it's easy to recommend both of them.

However, if you can only get one of them, then go with Zero-X for sure.
 

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
Both good choices. One thing I really like about Dr. Dave is that if he says it you can take it to the bank because of his detail oriented and science and evidence minded brain. That isn't to say that Tor has any inaccuracies as I haven't seen all his stuff but what I have seen from him was pretty good and his videos are polished and well done. It's just that I know you can take what Dr. Dave says to the bank without reservation.

If in your own mind you ultimately feel it is a tie or anywhere close to it I would go with Dr. Dave simply because of all he does to support pool. He organizes the donation drives for the Billiard Education Foundation (the kids of the sport) and contributes significantly out of his pocket as well. He also spends countless hours on the forums providing great information and helping people without gain. You could go on and on. Again, not to say that Tor hasn't done some things for pool as well, like where he did a tour and trained some people for free, but I think it pales in comparison to the untold hours Dr. Dave has puts in doing pool related research and experiments, sharing his wealth of information freely and liberally on the forums, compiling the most comprehensive and best pool information available into a free website for all, and helping the sport and the people in it in general in many other ways.
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Both good choices. One thing I really like about Dr. Dave is that if he says it you can take it to the bank because of his detail oriented and science and evidence minded brain. That isn't to say that Tor has any inaccuracies as I haven't seen all his stuff but what I have seen from him was pretty good and his videos are polished and well done. It's just that I know you can take what Dr. Dave says to the bank without reservation.

If in your own mind you ultimately feel it is a tie or anywhere close to it I would go with Dr. Dave simply because of all he does to support pool. He organizes the donation drives for the Billiard Education Foundation (the kids of the sport) and contributes significantly out of his pocket as well. He also spends countless hours on the forums providing great information and helping people without gain. You could go on and on. Again, not to say that Tor hasn't done some things for pool as well, like where he did a tour and trained some people for free, but I think it pales in comparison to the untold hours Dr. Dave has puts in doing pool related research and experiments, sharing his wealth of information freely and liberally on the forums, compiling the most comprehensive and best pool information available into a free website for all, and helping the sport and the people in it in general in many other ways.

great post...sent you a greenie
we should give back to those that give to us
to the op but off topic
take up onepocket it will feed both sides of your brain.....:)
 

336Robin

Multiverse Operative
Gold Member
Silver Member
Impossible Choice

You can get the downloads of the Zero-X material pretty cheap. I think Dr.
Dave does downloads as well.

If Dr. Dave does not do downloads I would purchase his DVD's and then do the downloads of Zero-X to maximize money spent. No serious pool player should be without both.

I agree with the previous poster about taking up One Pocket to feed both sides of your brain. It is also a way to be able to play with better players because it guarantees you will get more turns at the table and will allow you to apply and grow your skills to catch up to them.
 

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Both good choices. One thing I really like about Dr. Dave is that if he says it you can take it to the bank because of his detail oriented and science and evidence minded brain. That isn't to say that Tor has any inaccuracies as I haven't seen all his stuff but what I have seen from him was pretty good and his videos are polished and well done. It's just that I know you can take what Dr. Dave says to the bank without reservation.

If in your own mind you ultimately feel it is a tie or anywhere close to it I would go with Dr. Dave simply because of all he does to support pool. He organizes the donation drives for the Billiard Education Foundation (the kids of the sport) and contributes significantly out of his pocket as well. He also spends countless hours on the forums providing great information and helping people without gain. You could go on and on. Again, not to say that Tor hasn't done some things for pool as well, like where he did a tour and trained some people for free, but I think it pales in comparison to the untold hours Dr. Dave has puts in doing pool related research and experiments, sharing his wealth of information freely and liberally on the forums, compiling the most comprehensive and best pool information available into a free website for all, and helping the sport and the people in it in general in many other ways.

That's great, but has nothing to do with his ability to teach or produce quality material.
 

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
That's great, but has nothing to do with his ability to teach or produce quality material.

Agreed, but it's a great tie breaker if the OP is still undecided on what is best for him after all is said and done...which is exactly what my post said.

For the record there is no question that Dr. Dave has a good ability to teach and produces quality material. That said, people with different intelligence levels and different "learning styles" can respond better to certain teaching styles. Whose material and teaching style will he get the most from? I doubt he will ever know unless he gets both because they both cover quality material in a quality way (with some of it overlapping, and some of it differing) and I'm guessing that none of us are going to be able to tell him what teaching style is going to be best for him.

If it is of any help to the OP, I haven't seen either in their entirety, but from memory off the top of my head, from what I have seen Tor tends to cover the same basic stuff that most people do but he does it better than most and with a very polished top notch production quality, while Dr. Dave covers all the same type stuff plus often goes into a little more depth with the hows and whys and physics plus covers some things that you don't tend to see elsewhere but with graphics and production quality and delivery style that are great but maybe not quite as polished and slick.

One probably is slightly more entertaining, and one is probably slightly more insightful, and both are quality. I don't think he can make a wrong choice.
 

mvp

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I recently choose zeroX, but not because of reviews, or amount of material, or anything like that. I choose it because Tor spoke in a way I could relate, I've seen some DR Dave stuff and I found it a little over whelming with lines and chart like lessons. Both are super great but pick the lesson style that works for you! I do plan on the dr Dave dvds probably next year as I'm finding that as I dissected the material and created practice drills it became more fun. But you will only get out of it what you put in! Most people will buy a video watch it and expect to improve, that's not how it works! Listen/watch practice and repeat! One chapter at a time!
 

Colt Kodiak

Colt Kodiak
Silver Member
I've seen the reviews for both Tor Lowry's and Dr. Dave's VEPS videos. I'm having trouble deciding between the two. I know both are excellent, but have slightly different styles. I've seen both on You Tube.

I have played most of my life, but have never received any formal instruction (although I plan to make a trip to Oregon to learn from Robin Dreyer. I understand he's the very best.) I can run a rack of 9B unless the layout is really screwball, but my favorite game is 14.1. I can see the layout and know what SHOULD be done to get through a rack, but my accuracy sometimes leaves me disappointed.

I'm an engineer by trade, but am also fairly right-brained, in that I love to paint and enjoy creativity that goes well beyond strict limitations of orthodoxy. (I say that because it looks like VEPS is very much geared towards the left-brained.)

I could use some help in this decision. Any thoughts?

I sent you a PM but will respond publicly too. IF you are really going to Robin, hold off on buying any DVD's. Robin has his own kicking and banking systems that make everything so simple. And, if 14:1 is your game, Robin love to teach that. He especially enjoys teaching better players. I hope you can go so he can get more support on AZB.
 

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
I've seen the reviews for both Tor Lowry's and Dr. Dave's VEPS videos. I'm having trouble deciding between the two. I know both are excellent, but have slightly different styles. I've seen both on You Tube.

I have played most of my life, but have never received any formal instruction (although I plan to make a trip to Oregon to learn from Robin Dreyer. I understand he's the very best.) I can run a rack of 9B unless the layout is really screwball, but my favorite game is 14.1. I can see the layout and know what SHOULD be done to get through a rack, but my accuracy sometimes leaves me disappointed.

I'm an engineer by trade, but am also fairly right-brained, in that I love to paint and enjoy creativity that goes well beyond strict limitations of orthodoxy. (I say that because it looks like VEPS is very much geared towards the left-brained.)

I could use some help in this decision. Any thoughts?
I am an engineer and I teach creative writing, so my advice might come from a balanced peer.

Buy both. Life is too short for such trivial "this or that" decisions.


Freddie <~~~ balanced
 

Renegade_56

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I sent you a PM but will respond publicly too. IF you are really going to Robin, hold off on buying any DVD's. Robin has his own kicking and banking systems that make everything so simple. And, if 14:1 is your game, Robin love to teach that. He especially enjoys teaching better players. I hope you can go so he can get more support on AZB.

But, be forewarned that Robin already teaches 10-12 hours a day 6 or 7 days a week so it may be hard to get in, unless he cancels 2 or 3 days of someone elses lessons to get to you, but I hear he's 2 thirds cheaper, so worth looking into. I'd go ahead and buy other materials as well because it seems his more advanced students are doing so as well. There is always the added bonus of learning how to cheat the pocket.
 

DCS_SF

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have only seen excerpts of Dr Dave's stuff but I would like to own it eventually. It is however really hard to not recommend Tors vids. Essentially you can get downloads of almost everything he has available for $30 which is the cost of just one of the VEPS DVDs.

TO me it was a no brainer as which one to start with, and the Zero X vids have so much good stuff it has kept me busy for a long time. I will get to the VEPS vids eventually but right now Tor has given so much great material to chew on for a fraction of the price.
 

Dave-Kat

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have full set of the ZERO-X DVD's but need to sit still long enough to actually watch them for more than 15 min at a time. AT this rate, I will get through them by end of the year haha. Of all the DVD's I have bought, I really like Tar's explanations and presentation best.

I do not own Dr.Dave's DVD's but have watched and read much from Dr. Dave's and Bob's info/Vid Clips from search's leading to site. Really helped me sort things out and thank then for all their time and help.

Have a good safe weekend,

-Kat,
 

SARDiver

JCC Chief
Silver Member
Some really good posts on this thread. Thank you all.

This one:


Zero-X if you want to play the game better.

VEPS if you want to understand the game better.


Honestly, just get both.

put into words what my brain was seeing.

I think I will end up getting both. Much appreciated!
 

Dave-Kat

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
To me it's the 'Simple Things' like a solid, consistent PSR and solo practice sessions that have been the most help to me and have improved my game that last year. Aiming for me has become more precise due to my PSR work.

The DVD's and Good Reads with static visuals - Brynes, Capelle, Small Motions, 99 Shots are excellent for the coffee table or the 'office' :groucho:

-Kat,
 

Texdance

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There are free downloads of ZeroX on youtube, and Dr Dave has plenty free stuff also. No need to buy anything at first.

I followed Dave's website for years without much improvement. It was informative, like a dictionary or encyclopedia of pool shots, and a site where I found very specific and correct (but dry) advice. I never bought anything - most everything Dave had available I already had downloaded for free.

ZeroX was different, it had a flow and clarity I could learn from. After I got the first free ZeroX download things clicked quickly. I started to run out in 8 and 9 ball much more often. The rotation games got much simpler, even 1-pocket too. I became mostly limited by my stroke and eyesight, willingness to get serious about planning runs, and practice time. Before long I bought the whole ZeroX package, very good value for the money.

Unfortunately, there is no place for me to compete closer than 60 miles, and my interest has waned a lot because of that. Still, I set up an old computer out in the shop so that when I practice at home I can have a ZeroX video playing for company.
 

CMB1

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I say go with Tor Lowry. I am an engineer too. I have bought all the digital materials and books from Tor and Dave. and I very much prefers Tor's materials because they are more systematic. I am currently going thru his Ball Pocketing Drills which has 5 levels, I am now working on the middle of level 2. At the same time you can dive into his different topics depending on your needs and interest. also his +200 Pattern Puzzle book allows you to work on different ball patterns. I already sent 1.5 years working on his materials and I think it will take me another 3 years to work on the rest.
 
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