The Mosconi slipstroke

Jon Manning said:
Wow! I've been a lurker here for many years and just recently started posting. This thread is one of the most unbelievable things I have ever read! I mean the deniers are so convinced it has me second guessing what I've seen... then I just watch the videos again.
What is this vested interest in denying that Mosconi had a slip stroke? I don't get it.
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Pretty simple really.

Show me a video of Willie sliding his hand back as he pulls the cue back for the final
'backswing', 'cause that is what a slipstroke is.

Dale
 
BeiberLvr said:
And how many times have pro players been absolutely wrong about what they THOUGHT they were doing?

Learn to view evidence objectively and help wipe out ignorance.
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Did someone ask Willie what he thought?

Looks like a bit of remedial reading instruction should be on your schedule.

Dale(amatuer educator at large)
 
Mr. Bond said:
I have good Mosconi footage and a lot of it.
After a while you start to notice that Willie had somewhat fidgety hands.

His hands had a mind of their own and were almost constantly making minute adjustments to his grip at any given time. Not large adjustments but small subtle ones, which obviously included slipping the cue slightly forward or back in his hand depending on the shot.

Greenleaf did something similar except that it was more like a baseball batter winding up for a hit....sometimes the butt of his cue would literally be swinging in circles just prior to his stroke, and rarely did he ever choke up on the stick.

I have never looked at the films with the thought or inclination of proving or disproving that Mosconi used a slip stroke, but when I have time, I probably will look into it now just because I'm a little curious about what I'm seeing and reading.
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..."adjustments to his grip"...

Finally...

You might want to take a look at the youtube video of Greenleaf shooting trickshots.
There is one where you get a good angle to see him use a maneuver very similar
to what Willie did. Not a great surprise considering he toured with Greenleaf early in
his career that he might emulate the greatest player in the world. In his book Willie
mentions his habit of putzing around with the cue just before delivery.
He calls it a 'waggle' and also evokes the image of a baseball batter.

IMHO - it is obvious Willie was a sidestroker who converted to the more common style.
After all, he was barely tall enough to reach the table as a youngster so sidestroke was the only option open to him.

I reviewed videos of Greenleaf and Hoppe who both stayed with the side. Both of them,
esp Hoppe, compared to today's straight-as-a-piston-in-a-bore practitioners, seem to
almost twirl the cue before they hit the Cue Ball.

Is any of your footage available online please?
If not, any chance it will ever be?

Dale
 
lfigueroa said:
Then let me ask you: if "Mosconi had a slip stroke" why aren't there dozens of shots on the available video? Why are there only two or three instances? If I shoot two or three shots left handed during a match does that mean you'd say,"Lou is a left handed player."

Lou Figueroa
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Uh, no. I wouldn't say he is a left handed player, I would say he has a left handed shot in the arsenal. Same as the slip stroke. A different shot for different occasions, in the same way that you shoot a draw shot, doesn't mean you shoot with draw on every shot, does it?
 
Jon Manning said:
Uh, no. I wouldn't say he is a left handed player, I would say he has a left handed shot in the arsenal. Same as the slip stroke. A different shot for different occasions, in the same way that you shoot a draw shot, doesn't mean you shoot with draw on every shot, does it?
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PD and Lfig will never agree with you. They are the type of personalities that can only feel valuable if they belittle, argue, and deny.

Here's the thing: Nobody can prove them wrong because they will just change the argument or change a definition...like they have done at every turn in this thread.

We should let them sit at the slow kids table alone instead of watching them eat the paste and letting them slow the rest of the class down.
 
pdcue said:
Pretty simple really.

Show me a video of Willie sliding his hand back as he pulls the cue back for the final
'backswing', 'cause that is what a slipstroke is.

Dale
Click to expand...

Lol, I'm sure you are serious, just can't understand why. Have you watched the video Posted? If for whatever reason you are seeing something different in the video, I have some ocean front property in Arizona for sale, you interested?
The confirmation bias, is strong with this bunch.
 
Neil said:
...Does the slipstroke add anything to the stroke? I don't believe it does one iota.(and the science of the stroke says it doesn't) I think it is nothing more than he liked to hold the cue at or near the balance point.
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Copying my post from an earlier thread on this:

JohnnyP said:
This photo shows my cue was decelerating before impact:

pool3.jpg


It looks like I hit the cue ball about 30msec late.

My theory about why (some say) you can get more action with a slip stroke is that it changes your stroke timing. The stick is getting a few inches head start.

Bob Jewitt and Dr. Dave posted this video showing cue speed for a "medium" pendulum stroke:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfzUvIzKJR4#t=90

Near the end of the stroke the cue is traveling about 5.5 mph.

Convert this to inches per msec:

5.5 mi x 5280 ft x 1 hr x 1 min x 1 sec x 12 in
------- -------- ----- ------ ------ ------
1 hr 1 mi 60 min 60 sec 1000msec 1 ft

= 0.0968 inches per msec.

I contacted the cue ball 30 msec late, so 0.0968 x 30 = 2.9 inches.

Bingo, with a 2.9" slip stroke I would have contacted the cue ball at max cue speed, compensating for my decelerating cue.
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From post #54 of the same thread:

JohnnyP said:
The acceleration graph I posted shows I hit the cue ball late. I'm thinking that my stroke hand was a few inches forward of 90° when I addressed the cue ball. I'm often told I need to move my grip hand back a few inches.

In other words, I was already into the follow through at the address. I was near the end of my stroke at contact, so the cue had to be decelerating.

If you look at many of the old straight poolers, their stroking hand is forward of 90° at the address. Without a huge elbow drop, the cue was near the end of travel at the contact point.

I think the slip stroke was used to "get a little extra" stroke on the ball, without knowing why it worked.

Refer to the calculation in my above post. A 2.9" slip stroke would have shifted the stroke timing enough to move the hit from a decelerating one to one at max cue speed.

Now we know why it works.
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Jon Manning said:
Lol, I'm sure you are serious, just can't understand why. Have you watched the video Posted? If for whatever reason you are seeing something different in the video, I have some ocean front property in Arizona for sale, you interested?
The confirmation bias, is strong with this bunch.
Click to expand...

This just may be too subtle for you to understand, but:

Lou, I presume, and I saw exactly what you, and all the others saw.

Which part of 'you slide your hand back as you pull the cue back for the final time'
is too technical for you to comprehend.

Dale(explainer by trade)
 
PoppaSaun said:
PD and Lfig will never agree with you. They are the type of personalities that can only feel valuable if they belittle, argue, and deny.

Here's the thing: Nobody can prove them wrong because they will just change the argument or change a definition...like they have done at every turn in this thread.

We should let them sit at the slow kids table alone instead of watching them eat the paste and letting them slow the rest of the class down.
Click to expand...

If only I was as smart as you I might have graduated from college, or even joined Mensa.

Speaking of definitions, let's hear your def of a slipstroke.

Dale(too cool for school)
 
pdcue said:
This just may be too subtle for you to understand, but:

Lou, I presume, and I saw exactly what you, and all the others saw.

Which part of 'you slide your hand back as you pull the cue back for the final time'
is too technical for you to comprehend.

Dale(explainer by trade)
Click to expand...

The videos clearly show exactly what you are asking for. That's why I'm confused why you are asking for what is already shown in the videos.
But I guess you would like to make attempts at insulting me, "too subtle for me to understand" lol. I'm the one that doesn't know what I'm looking at, huh? guess I'm the one making a ridiculous argument too? Are you one of those guys that go around thinking they are smarter than everyone? Anyways, I'm going to bow out of this thread, as it makes no difference what evidence is presented, some are just too dumb to understand what they are seeing, or just trolling, either way I wish y'all the best.
 
Jon Manning said:
Uh, no. I wouldn't say he is a left handed player, I would say he has a left handed shot in the arsenal. Same as the slip stroke. A different shot for different occasions, in the same way that you shoot a draw shot, doesn't mean you shoot with draw on every shot, does it?
Click to expand...


Today during practice I shot several shots using a slip stroke. I used it more times than all the video clips. I must be a slip stroke player now.

Me an' Mosconi, baby.

Lou Figueroa
 
PoppaSaun said:
PD and Lfig will never agree with you. They are the type of personalities that can only feel valuable if they belittle, argue, and deny.

Here's the thing: Nobody can prove them wrong because they will just change the argument or change a definition...like they have done at every turn in this thread.

We should let them sit at the slow kids table alone instead of watching them eat the paste and letting them slow the rest of the class down.
Click to expand...


lol, in that case you're doing a pretty good job of making yourself feel valuable in your 29 posts here to date. Lots of belittling, arguing, and denial.

Welcome to the kiddie table ;-)

Lou Figueroa
 
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Jon Manning said:
The videos clearly show exactly what you are asking for. That's why I'm confused why you are asking for what is already shown in the videos.
But I guess you would like to make attempts at insulting me, "too subtle for me to understand" lol. I'm the one that doesn't know what I'm looking at, huh? guess I'm the one making a ridiculous argument too? Are you one of those guys that go around thinking they are smarter than everyone? Anyways, I'm going to bow out of this thread, as it makes no difference what evidence is presented, some are just too dumb to understand what they are seeing, or just trolling, either way I wish y'all the best.
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It is that simple - you really can't tell the difference?

That is not what I expected at all.

Not that it is any of your concern but I am smarter than a lot of people, and dumber
than a lot of people.

Not agreeing with someone doesn't offend an adult.

Dale
 
lfigueroa said:
Fairly significant? If his wrap is a standard 12" and his hand is not right where it meets the wood -- so perhaps 2" back -- and he moves his grip back with a couple of inches of the wrap still visible, that would be like a 4" inch slip back if you figure 4" for the width of his hand. That's not significant at all when compared to what guys like Cowboy Jimmy Moore was doing.

Lou Figueroa
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All this time I thought I dropped my elbow on SOME shots, but after realizing it's not significant at all when compared to Mike Sigel. It's easy to see I was mistaken.

#loulogic
 
lfigueroa said:
Today during practice I shot several shots using a slip stroke. I used it more times than all the video clips. I must be a slip stroke player now.

Me an' Mosconi, baby.

Lou Figueroa
Click to expand...

Lou,

Please stop trying to change the argument in an attempt to make an unnecessary point.

NO ONE is saying that Mosconi was a slip stroke player, or that he used a slip stroke on the majority of his shots. Yet, in these last few pages, that's the only point you keep hitting on.

The only point anyone is trying to make is that at times (how often is irrelevant) Mosconi employed the slip stroke on certain shots, and the video evidence clearly proves that point.
 
JohnnyP said:
Copying my post from an earlier thread on this:




From post #54 of the same thread:
Click to expand...

If I am reading you correctly, you are stating that the slip stroke does add something to the stroke IF you were stroking starting forward of perpendicular. I agree with that. My comment, though maybe not clear enough, was that a slip stroke adds nothing to a proper stroke, which would be contact at the perpendicular of the stroke arm.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I had to google this to find out what you meant. I would certainly give all my attention to this guy if he started telling me a story.


View attachment 451553
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Wrong kind of PAO.

This is the kind I'm talking about...Public Affairs Officer. Some places call them Public Affairs Officials. Other places call them Information Officers or Officials. They could even be called Propaganda Specialists. This guy was called Baghdad Bob.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yfAeMtcURg0
 
realkingcobra said:
Because most of today's players use such a long stroke they're already holding the cue at the butt plate as it is, which is why they're trending towards longer cues.
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You saying, So there's room to slip??
No body slips these days. Few know what it means.

Last Instructor I had at my house looked at some photos on my wall and asked " Didn't any of these players have a long stroke?"

NOPE
and Still

Snooker is another animal. Why on the winning ball they have a 26" bridge????
 
BeiberLvr said:
All this time I thought I dropped my elbow on SOME shots, but after realizing it's not significant at all when compared to Mike Sigel. It's easy to see I was mistaken.

#loulogic
Click to expand...


Ah yes, the elbow drop... I have not seen it that much with Mike, but I have oft watched
video of both Mosconi and Mizerak shooting 'break shots' during good runs in 14.1. There
elbows end the stroke at about their pelvic bone.

Dale
 
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