Secrets!
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Secrets! - 08-20-2011, 02:01 AM

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Originally Posted by Kurida View Post
The secret is there is no secret!.....from the movie Kung fu panda 1. If everybody plays pool well due to a working secret formula then with or without money involved, pool wouldn't be much fun. It is like making everybody look exactly the same. I say, use whatever talent or tool you have as long as it is legal and ethical. Stop thinking that a secret aiming system or a secret playing technique or style is known by pros but they are purposely hiding it from everybody else. For one, these pros do not share their knowledge with each other. There is no connivance among pros. In fact they probably even don't like each other as much as we or they think. Being a PRO means nothing more than a person who realized he can make money out of pool, whether or not he believes he is good or is really good. Most of them are just BUMS!
I've always believed that there were and are secrets in pool. Secrets are the pieces of information that are not easily shared or freely shared.

When a young up and coming player goes on to the road with an older, more successful and better seasoned player, he acquires information that has been unavailable to him in the past. Those are "secrets".

There are plenty of "secrets" in pool. Sometimes the "secrets" can be found in the many books and videos on the instruction of pool. Other times, the "secrets" are shared by players with their favorite peeps. They may appear in the form of particular shots that few people know or simply a different way to shoot a particular shot. Those are "SECRETS".

I don't consider pool players bums but you are right that there is no conspiracy out there amongst professional pool players to deprive you of the "Secrets". It doesn't hurt to have someone who has already been down that road to share those intimate morsels of information that I call "SECRETS:.


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the greatest secrets of all - 08-20-2011, 05:50 AM

These secrets are like so many "secrets" right out in plain sight. Things everyone "knows" are true but few really believe. The last time I was talking to a pro pool player he confirmed that this is indeed truth and that he takes full advantage of most people's weakness.

Quite simply, almost everyone finds a way to play to their expectations. When they play against a pro or a legend they don't expect to win so if they are winning they find a way to lose. Not deliberately or consciously but people rarely exceed their own expectations.

This has given me a bit of a free ride from the very first time I competed in group competitions. Not because I was a great competitor but because I was competing in open competitions with great competitors and in a way I rode on their coat tails.

The vast majority of competitors go to an event and see two or three top competitors and in their hearts are competing for third or fourth place. The very best they hope to do is finish behind the big dogs. They are probably right that they will finish behind the big dogs, but they don't have a decent shot at third or fourth either. The reason is simple, they have lowered their expectations. Everybody that is still striving for first place has an edge on them. The people legitimately fighting for first may well sneak by one or two of the big dogs or the elite may knock each other out. However the people that see themselves as second tier players will still find a way to be second tier players.

Another great secret, anybody can lose on a given day to just a solid journeyman competitor. Sure we all know that in our heads but how many know it in their gut and heart when we see a hall of famer or future hall of famer across the table?

The greatest secret to winning in any form of competition is to try to win. If you pour everything you have into getting to first place, not beating one particular person and not accepting there are some people there that you can't beat, you will score some firsts. Winners find ways to win, also rans find ways to not win. I have competed with thousands of people over the last forty years and change and I know most aren't competing for first place in their own hearts and minds. It gives those that are a huge edge, even those of us just hanging on the top players' coat tails.

The funny thing about writing this is I haven't given away a thing. The one in dozens that really knew this in their gut already still believe it and the rest of the readers will think they just wasted five minutes of their lives reading drivel or they will agree in their heads but won't believe where and when it counts. I have known dozens of people that have all the tools except real expectations of winning who have never won an event of any size, some not even a small event. Despite all their other tools I don't concern myself with them when I see them at a competition. If nothing else happens they are going to find a way to beat themselves.

Hu
  
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08-20-2011, 06:44 AM

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Originally Posted by jay helfert View Post
Back to the cut shot we were talking about. I have an experiment for you. Put up the most extreme cut shot you can imagine, one that looks like it won't go. Then try hitting it firm with high English and firm with low English. See which way you can cut the ball the thinnest. Let me know what you discover.

Jay, I believe that this is one of those secrets that may be idiosyncratic to each player. IOW, what works good for one player may not for another, so you end up with some players who get good results one way and some the udder.

Me, I've always thought, perhaps mistakenly, that the best way to get friction on an extreme cut is to use a sliding cue ball, and I do seem to get my bestest results with a slightly below center hit. But then that's just me.

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08-20-2011, 08:29 AM

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Originally Posted by jay helfert View Post
Back to the cut shot we were talking about. I have an experiment for you. Put up the most extreme cut shot you can imagine, one that looks like it won't go. Then try hitting it firm with high English and firm with low English. See which way you can cut the ball the thinnest. Let me know what you discover.
More importantly, IMHO, is to shorten your bridge. I agree with your advice though, and thanks for the tip.


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08-20-2011, 10:53 AM

I must say I'm glad that this topic was set up as it contains a lot of great tips and insights. Thanks JoeyA! :-)


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08-20-2011, 11:15 AM

Thank goodness that knowledge and execution are two entirely different things. In my estimation, the reason I win more than I lose is due to superior execution. It is one thing to "know secrets", yet another to successfully apply and execute these secrets.

I'm very glad that application trumps knowledge a majority of the time.
  
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08-20-2011, 03:01 PM

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Originally Posted by JarnoV View Post
I must say I'm glad that this topic was set up as it contains a lot of great tips and insights. Thanks JoeyA! :-)
You're welcome JarnoV. As Hu mentioned, many will read the "SECRETS" and say that those aren't secrets o "I knew that" and continue doing what they have always been doing.

It's no big deal if someone doesn't get it but for those that do, it makes up for everything else.

Sailor told Williebetmore about the sacrifices that a person must make to become a winning professional pool player and that most would never be willing to make those sacrifices. I believe Sailor is right.

But I agree that many great tips and insights have been offered. Hopefully others will give up their "Secrets".


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08-20-2011, 03:25 PM

If you're looking for a good systems check, try this. It was published as far back as the early 1900's by Maurice Daly and also by Mosconi in one of his books. I've seen countless pros use it in one form or another, even Efren.

Daly and Mosconi said when approaching the shot line, stand square to the shot with the cue stick at your side, pointing at the shot. Then turn into the shot. I do a variation of this to keep my dominant eye dominant. I'm right handed and keep my body to the left of the shot. This allows my dominant right eye to get the best view.

My variation is to lay the stick on the shot line as I bend over, half way down on the shot. I don't grab the cue and set my bridge hand until I've had a good look at the shot. Your eyes will naturally put you on the correct line. You'll feel uncomfortable if you're not lined up correctly as you get down on the shot.

If you miss the shot, reset and see where you're lining up wrong. This basic setup will show you very simply if you're sighting the shot correctly and eliminate steering the cue ball possibly caused by an improper PSR.

If you can't get your stick on the correct shot line as you lay it on the table, you've discovered a major flaw in your game. It's a good systems check to see if you're lining up correctly. It sounds so simple it can't possibly work, but I use it when I dog a shot or two to remind myself where I need to be. I call it my hundred year old "secret".

Best,
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08-20-2011, 03:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by aces805 View Post
Thank goodness that knowledge and execution are two entirely different things. In my estimation, the reason I win more than I lose is due to superior execution. It is one thing to "know secrets", yet another to successfully apply and execute these secrets.

I'm very glad that application trumps knowledge a majority of the time.
Jim Rempe said the same thing years ago, when discussing the best way to shoot a certain shot. His words, "It's not shot selection, it's shot execution that's important!" There have been many players down through the years who would take some funny routes to get position for the next shot. But they kept making it work for them so who is to say if it was right or wrong.


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08-20-2011, 04:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikjary View Post
If you're looking for a good systems check, try this. It was published as far back as the early 1900's by Maurice Daly and also by Mosconi in one of his books. I've seen countless pros use it in one form or another, even Efren.

Daly and Mosconi said when approaching the shot line, stand square to the shot with the cue stick at your side, pointing at the shot. Then turn into the shot. I do a variation of this to keep my dominant eye dominant. I'm right handed and keep my body to the left of the shot. This allows my dominant right eye to get the best view.

My variation is to lay the stick on the shot line as I bend over, half way down on the shot. I don't grab the cue and set my bridge hand until I've had a good look at the shot. Your eyes will naturally put you on the correct line. You'll feel uncomfortable if you're not lined up correctly as you get down on the shot.

If you miss the shot, reset and see where you're lining up wrong. This basic setup will show you very simply if you're sighting the shot correctly and eliminate steering the cue ball possibly caused by an improper PSR.

If you can't get your stick on the correct shot line as you lay it on the table, you've discovered a major flaw in your game. It's a good systems check to see if you're lining up correctly. It sounds so simple it can't possibly work, but I use it when I dog a shot or two to remind myself where I need to be. I call it my hundred year old "secret".

Best,
Mike

I started doing this about a year ago...probably the single biggest thing I've done to improve my game in almost 30 years! I was amazed at how jacked up my stance was until I started doing this. I was leaning and twisting all over the place, all unbalanced. Didn't think I was set up wrong until I tried this. I heard about this simple trick of locking my right hand into my hip, lining up the cue with the shot and then stepping down into my stance. Everything instantly clicked and my consistency went through the roof! Add to that the Pinoy trick of initially aiming at the base of the ball (to verify you're lined up absolutely on the center vertical line--AND I can see the line between my cueball and object ball contact points for aim better) and I'm shooting the best pool I've shot in over 20 years!

Jay Helfert and others have already addressed staying calm and having the winning attitude--that's my biggest problem and my next challenge. I tried to work on that in the last two tournaments I played in, and went farther than I have in years...still need work there, though!


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08-20-2011, 06:44 PM

The secret is making others think there are secrets.

Like the cut shot discussed so far in regards as to what english to be used.

The real secret is to make that cut shot with any type of english you want to use.

Only thinking that for this type of shot , you use only this english limits you.
  
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08-20-2011, 06:50 PM

After looking through hundreds of books on pool and billiards from 1807 until 1978,I believe that there was very little "correct" information about how to play pool available. Mingauds 1827 work had a treasure chest full of ideas and concepts which you could incorporate,{he actually invented nearly every concept we use today} but how many people would have even known to look for it?
imo with the exception of George Fels book, most of the books were basically, misinformation. All copied from the same incorrect or incomplete source.
About the only way to get knowledge was to befriend a good player and hope they were one of the few who would show you.
If you go back in the history of players you can just about follow a who's who of pool progression of their mentors by the area the grew up in.
There were very few exceptions.
Jump forward to Bob Byrne, Ray Martin, Phil Capelle, all the Dvds all the free stuff from Dr. Dave all great information and myriad other sources available now, that anyone who can read can utilize.
I believe that is why there are so many great players from all over the world today.
I have written in another thread that I overheard a converstaion between Jim Rempe and another pro one time about backhand English in the early 1970s. Bert Kinnister says they wanted to strangle him when he gave up that "secret".
Understandaby so, it is a powerful weapon you can use to get the cueball to places on the table you can't any other way. {At least that I have seen}.
I will never forget the day I learned how to put force follow on the cueball next to the rail, at the time it was probably worth almost a ball at my One Pocket game! Just that one shot!
How about drag draw?
I learned that on my own and didn't know what it was called in the 60s.
I used it waaaaay too much for about 5 years but it is a huge shot to know for beginners.
Every shot or move has a value, I showed a great player a shot when I was in Phoenix he didn't know, he said he valued it at 1/10th of a ball.
He's a very fine player, much higher skill level than me , so it must have been a potent shot to make that much difference.
Of course, it makes sense, because I learned it from a great player named George Rood.
Every shot , move, stroke , trick , that you learn has a value to be put in your overall game.
I am sure there are still some "secrets" that have not been given out, but I believe there is enough information available to anyone with good comprehension , great eyesight and decent nerves to become a high level player.
All of you guys 40 years old and under should send a thank you note to Bob Byrne, he started the information flow, without it , most of you would still be hacking around like you see the old timers.
  
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08-20-2011, 08:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by duckie View Post
The secret is making others think there are secrets.

Like the cut shot discussed so far in regards as to what english to be used.

The real secret is to make that cut shot with any type of english you want to use.

Only thinking that for this type of shot , you use only this english limits you.
There are secrets. Knowledge that some people have and don't share with others are secrets. I can never learn Bruce Lee's Kung Fu from books or self-study. I can learn some of it. But to really learn it I need to find someone who knows what is not in the books or who can properly demonstrate the concepts in the books.

The top players understand that any shot can be made with any spin or no spin. But they also know that certain shots are easier to "cinch" if done a certain way. So given the choice they CHOOSE to use that method over all others because that method carries a higher percentage of success. If an amateur is not privy to this then he lives under the impression that the make percentage is equal for all spin applications. The result is that the amateur MISSES the shot more often than he would if he knew the secret to cinching it.

A pro will take a worse position on the next ball in order to cinch the current shot. An amateur will try to get perfect position and shoot the lower percentage method and miss. People like Buddy Hall and Rodney Morris know these things and impart them to people who ask them in the right way.

Some things are hard to discover by trial and error alone. I guarantee you that the day I spent with Jimmy Reid opened my eyes more than the books I read up to that point. He showed me one tip for shooting over balls that I'd bet is not in any book or tape not authored by Jimmy. At least I have never seen it. But then again I haven't seen and read all the book and videos put out since then either. That one tip though has made me lots of money by getting me out of clutch situations.


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08-20-2011, 10:04 PM

Jimmy has about 7 DVDs John. Did you watch all of them? I'm going to have to watch them again.


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08-20-2011, 10:15 PM

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Jimmy has about 7 DVDs John. Did you watch all of them? I'm going to have to watch them again.
I haven't watched any of them. I spent a few days with Jimmy in Germany when he lived there. He was one of the first pros I made a case for back in the early 90s.


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