APA skill ranking?
- Thread starter Hail Mary Shot
- Start date
Rockaway Billiards Made It's Own Handicapped League....
to avoid some of the speculation and questions that arised with the APA. We are also taking all of the fees from the weekly dues and greensfees and creating cash prizes for the winning teams.
The computerized handicapping is based on the APA system but not identical. The computer program was written for our room and we openly discuss the handicaps with all the players - no secrecy!
Our players will win a lot more money and can pay their own way to Vegas!
www.RockawayBilliards.com
Rockaway, New Jersey
to avoid some of the speculation and questions that arised with the APA. We are also taking all of the fees from the weekly dues and greensfees and creating cash prizes for the winning teams.
The computerized handicapping is based on the APA system but not identical. The computer program was written for our room and we openly discuss the handicaps with all the players - no secrecy!
Our players will win a lot more money and can pay their own way to Vegas!
www.RockawayBilliards.com
Rockaway, New Jersey
Greater Grand Rapids Pool League
We have something similar here as well.
The GGRPL is a local independent FUN league with about 30 or so teams.
There is an annual $35 tavern, $12 annual player sanction fee and costs $2 a week to play.
All money (after expenses) goes toward trophies, year end banquet and many many door prizes. The LO is paid for expenses and a very small amount for his time (after years of doing it for free).
It based on the APA with several changes. The most notable are:
Call ball and pocket.
No 23 rule.
Safeties DO COUNT as innings.
All matches are played the the full SL, not minus 1 or 2 in the case of a 7.
A player is not penalized for winning because the opponent scratches on the 8, 8 in wrong pocket etc. (unless the APA has recently made a change).
League rules and rule changes are voted on at the captains meetings before each session!
The league is split into 3 divisions determined by the quality of the teams and how they place in the preceding session.
What I like best about this league is the no 23 rule which allows you to put a team of friends together without the fear of having to drop a player because his SL went up. Having grown up in a pool room I do not know many low level players so my team consists of 2 SL4, 1 SL5 and 4 SL7. I am the captain and weakest player on the team at SL4. The other SL4 is a new player and not yet reached his final SL.
Steve
kmg said:
We have something similar here as well.
The GGRPL is a local independent FUN league with about 30 or so teams.
There is an annual $35 tavern, $12 annual player sanction fee and costs $2 a week to play.
All money (after expenses) goes toward trophies, year end banquet and many many door prizes. The LO is paid for expenses and a very small amount for his time (after years of doing it for free).
It based on the APA with several changes. The most notable are:
Call ball and pocket.
No 23 rule.
Safeties DO COUNT as innings.
All matches are played the the full SL, not minus 1 or 2 in the case of a 7.
A player is not penalized for winning because the opponent scratches on the 8, 8 in wrong pocket etc. (unless the APA has recently made a change).
League rules and rule changes are voted on at the captains meetings before each session!
The league is split into 3 divisions determined by the quality of the teams and how they place in the preceding session.
What I like best about this league is the no 23 rule which allows you to put a team of friends together without the fear of having to drop a player because his SL went up. Having grown up in a pool room I do not know many low level players so my team consists of 2 SL4, 1 SL5 and 4 SL7. I am the captain and weakest player on the team at SL4. The other SL4 is a new player and not yet reached his final SL.
Steve
Sand bagging
I've seen players with a handicap of 4 which should be 6 or 7 play 2 and 3 handicap players and run racks and then they suddenly shoot a ball into the rail so the 2 or 3 can shoot and start running up the innings in the match. The sand bagger actually laughs about it and it just ruins the handicap system. Players have learned the system and they know what to do to keep their handicap down until they get to a critical match like playing for a trip to Las Vegas against a team that has the correct handicaps. The sand baggers eat them alive and all you can do is complain to the LO and he or she thinks you are a sore loser and does nothing about it.
James
Players who want to sand bag may shoot a couple of shots perfectly and then obviously miss an easy shot to let their opponent shoot or run a rack down the the last ball or two and then miss on purpose or win a few games where they will win the match if they win another game and just start missing critical shots or actually miss and play position for their opponent or scratch on purpose to give their opponent ball in hand, the list goes on and on as far as things a player can do to sandbag and lose on purpose to keep their handicap down.tigerseye said:Just wanting to know exactly the procedure to sandbag in this kinda format....just so i will know what to look for in upcoming league matches...thanks
I've seen players with a handicap of 4 which should be 6 or 7 play 2 and 3 handicap players and run racks and then they suddenly shoot a ball into the rail so the 2 or 3 can shoot and start running up the innings in the match. The sand bagger actually laughs about it and it just ruins the handicap system. Players have learned the system and they know what to do to keep their handicap down until they get to a critical match like playing for a trip to Las Vegas against a team that has the correct handicaps. The sand baggers eat them alive and all you can do is complain to the LO and he or she thinks you are a sore loser and does nothing about it.
James
sde said:We have something similar here as well.
The GGRPL is a local independent FUN league with about 30 or so teams.
There is an annual $35 tavern, $12 annual player sanction fee and costs $2 a week to play.
All money (after expenses) goes toward trophies, year end banquet and many many door prizes. The LO is paid for expenses and a very small amount for his time (after years of doing it for free).
It based on the APA with several changes. The most notable are:
Call ball and pocket.
No 23 rule.
Safeties DO COUNT as innings.
All matches are played the the full SL, not minus 1 or 2 in the case of a 7.
A player is not penalized for winning because the opponent scratches on the 8, 8 in wrong pocket etc. (unless the APA has recently made a change).
League rules and rule changes are voted on at the captains meetings before each session!
The league is split into 3 divisions determined by the quality of the teams and how they place in the preceding session.
What I like best about this league is the no 23 rule which allows you to put a team of friends together without the fear of having to drop a player because his SL went up. Having grown up in a pool room I do not know many low level players so my team consists of 2 SL4, 1 SL5 and 4 SL7. I am the captain and weakest player on the team at SL4. The other SL4 is a new player and not yet reached his final SL.
Steve
sounds like fun. i wish we had something like that around here.
Very interesting. I am a captain of an APA team (sl6) and I am having a hard time enjoying myself. I have a 6, 3-5's and 3 sl3's, which isnt a bad mix, except my 5's will be 6's soon and the 3's cant pull the wins out. I have a few friends that are 6's and 7's that would like to play on my team but the damn 23 rule is killing me. I have to look into another format or try one similiar to SDE's format. On a side note- we dont have too many sandbaggin issues in my division. If I feel someone is stronger than what the league has them at, i will circle thier name and ask that they be reviewed.
APA Ranknings
This ranking system is a JOKE...... The League its self has alot to offer... But the rank system sucks... Lower players lose lose lose... While there 7 and 6 get the wins... THen when that team slides into the playoffs... Then the lower rank player opens up and kicks but...... Then if that team is lucky enough the APA will catch on, Throw them out of the League and keep the money they won.... But in retrospect everyone, EVERYONE sand bags in some way....It is basically a League of who can sandbag the best and not get caught....
APA sevens.....This League is not fair for you... For some sevens(I should say) Lets say you live in a small area... You are the big dog.... You beat every one and never ever lose in your town.... You are a so called seven.. Your team makes it to the states, regionals, or what have you.... You travel for a few hours, get a hotel, use gas, and spend quite a bit of money... Your team gets up there plays you win 2, your opponent wins 2..
It comes down to the small town 7,,,, against a real pool player.... Some one who very well should not even be allowed to be in APA, because he plays so good.... Tell me how thats fair.... The difference in 7's are ridiculous.... I can give almost all 7's in my local League the 5 ball.. OR more.... Some one explain how that is fair, I am a 7... But there are other 7's who can spot me the 7 or more..
This ranking system is a JOKE...... The League its self has alot to offer... But the rank system sucks... Lower players lose lose lose... While there 7 and 6 get the wins... THen when that team slides into the playoffs... Then the lower rank player opens up and kicks but...... Then if that team is lucky enough the APA will catch on, Throw them out of the League and keep the money they won.... But in retrospect everyone, EVERYONE sand bags in some way....It is basically a League of who can sandbag the best and not get caught....
APA sevens.....This League is not fair for you... For some sevens(I should say) Lets say you live in a small area... You are the big dog.... You beat every one and never ever lose in your town.... You are a so called seven.. Your team makes it to the states, regionals, or what have you.... You travel for a few hours, get a hotel, use gas, and spend quite a bit of money... Your team gets up there plays you win 2, your opponent wins 2..
It comes down to the small town 7,,,, against a real pool player.... Some one who very well should not even be allowed to be in APA, because he plays so good.... Tell me how thats fair.... The difference in 7's are ridiculous.... I can give almost all 7's in my local League the 5 ball.. OR more.... Some one explain how that is fair, I am a 7... But there are other 7's who can spot me the 7 or more..
sde said:
Thanks for the link;
VERY mind opening. I can now see why a lot of things happen with players SLs.
I've seen SL3s WIN matches, two or three games, average well over 10 innings per game, and not go down.
Now I know why.
It also shows how important winning is in relationship to your SL.
It also shows (clearly) how it's almost impossible to drop a SL without losing. They say that you can drop down, even when winning matches, but I haven't' seen it.
Gregg said:
Actually if Im not mistaken, I think losing has very little to do with dropping SL's. They use your winning scores to evaluate your SL. So, technically the best way to drop SL's is to win but rack up a ton of innings.
Beware_of_Dawg said:
I don't think you have the "applied scores" figured in. In fact, it has everything to do with your Win/Loss percentage.
Page five says this: "These applied scores are used for every match you win in which you shot more innings than our skill level indicates. A side effect of the applied score system is that it is next to impossible to drop a skill level while maintaining a winning percentage above 50%"
I may be entirely wrong, I'm not good with this stuff, but I think what your stating, as I understood it, is opposite of what you are stating.
Beware_of_Dawg said:
Not true at all. You will never go down if you have a 50% or higher win rate. Innings do not matter if you win, and you are over the "applied" inning score for your win %. If you go to the link posted earlier it gives the way applied scores are calculated. Also, they take your best 10 scores out of your last 20 matches, not only your wins.
There are also lowest attainable skills and national skill levels.
National: If you go to the nationals for singles or teams, you can never be lower than your rating when you leave Vegas. If you go as a 3 and they bump you to a 4, you can never go below a 4 again without league operator and APA Head office agreement. But if you go as a 4, and drop to a 3 while in Vegas, you can be no lower than a 3 after Vegas. I went to Vegas as a 6, lost my first match and dropped to a 5, won my next match and went back to a 6. I ended a 6, so now I can never be below a 6.
Lowest Attainable: If you are a 5, move to a 6, then stay a 6 for 10 matches, you can never go lower than a 5 after that.
soulcatcher said:
Thank you, I stand corrected.
Now, the diocument I saw seemed to be for 8ball... Is 9ball the same?
This question comes up quite frequently on the forums. I know that a lot of people are just curious about how it is done but I think that they don't want to give out too many details as it would then allow players to manipulate their rankings.
I think the best thing to do is to just play your best and try to win. Leave the rankings or ratings to the league and let the handicap system work. Make sure that all innings, defensive shots and other things such as early 8 or scratch on 8 are properly marked so the ratings can be accurately calculated. The reason for a handicap system is to give everyone a chance to win based upon their skill on playing pool; not their skill in being able to manipulate the system.
I think the best thing to do is to just play your best and try to win. Leave the rankings or ratings to the league and let the handicap system work. Make sure that all innings, defensive shots and other things such as early 8 or scratch on 8 are properly marked so the ratings can be accurately calculated. The reason for a handicap system is to give everyone a chance to win based upon their skill on playing pool; not their skill in being able to manipulate the system.
You can click on the link in this post. It loads VERY slow and is not the easiest to read, but I found the wait to be worth while.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpo...0&postcount=74
Steve
__________________
I am suprised my link didn't create more of discussion last time. I found this to be fairly interesting reading. I know it is dated and all, but I would imagine its still fairly accurate. Although if people were willing to properly mark defensive shots, sand bagging would naturally go away in their system. Perhaps not guarding this information of how it is calculated so closely would make people more vigilant in marking defense? That could be worth more to them than small leagues using their formula, I would think.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpo...0&postcount=74
Steve
__________________
I am suprised my link didn't create more of discussion last time. I found this to be fairly interesting reading. I know it is dated and all, but I would imagine its still fairly accurate. Although if people were willing to properly mark defensive shots, sand bagging would naturally go away in their system. Perhaps not guarding this information of how it is calculated so closely would make people more vigilant in marking defense? That could be worth more to them than small leagues using their formula, I would think.
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Beware_of_Dawg said:
9 Ball is similar, but uses balls/inning as the basis for your skill level. Of course, the higher your balls/inning, the higher your skill level. Also 9 Ball uses the best 12 of your last 20 instead of 10.
rope_one said:
That link is actually very accurate. I had a friend sent me that document a few years ago, and when I used it against my matches, I was able to predict exaclty when I went up from 3-4-5-6 in 8 ball.