Can you transfer side spin to an OB?
- Thread starter softshot
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there are two types of throw SIT and CIT Spin Induced Throw and Collision Induced Throw
the wood rails removed CIT for any cut angle.. but there is friction between the balls.. and the combination of spin and impact can throw the OB offline hence the name...
My argument centers on the fact that the OB does not retain any of this spin for any significant distance.
OK fair enough. The spin rubs off in time. And how much time depends on the cloth. For spin to stay on the longest I think the cloth needs to be fast and slick. On slow and sticky cloth, it may rub off pretty quickly.
But there's lots of tables out there for which the spin is plenty significant after the ball travels the length of the table.
show me an example of transferring english to an OB. such that the OB travels more than one foot in a reasonably straight line and hits the cushion dead on(90degrees) and returns at any angle other than straight back.
:grin:
Hello,
If I'm not mistaken, I believe Ron V said this. I always thought that you could transfer spin to an OB but he was explaining his system and said that you do not transfer spin. I immediately looked at the player/instructor that I was with during the phone coversation. Ron explained what happens but I don't remember exactly and I don't want to put words in his mouth.
Thanks for putting the theory to a test. I couldn't make out the audio too well, but from what I could tell, you were using near maximum english on all or most of the shots. This doesn't induce maximum spin on the object ball. In fact, it falls off pretty rapidly when you get much beyond half of maximum english.
Depending on how fast the shot and how slick the balls are, you should induce maximum spin when applying about one-third to one-half of maximum english. This is where max throw occurs. In theory, the object ball comes away with 36% (5/14'ths) of the cueball's spin up to the english that causes max throw. We're talking about full-hit stun shots, though it applies to various other shots too. To the extent that ball's behave as solid spheres with uniform mass distribution, this must be true. As a percentage of cueball spin then, it can acquire about 18% of maximum english ( = 36% of half-maximum). I've measured 15% off of one of Dr. Dave's videos, but of course there was a measurement error involved.
If you've ever done the exercise where you send the cueball the length of the table and have it return to your tip (which I'm sure you have), it's obvious that striking off-center by 1/6'th (17%) of maximum offset will have a significant effect on the rebound angle, certainly enough to make or break shots.
Jim
THIS post is LOL!
You have perfectly described in this post how to find a sticks pivot point.
Bridging at the pivot point, you can use backhand english and do EXACTLY what you are describing (hit a ball head on, with max english, it traves in straight line into cushion but comes off at a ridiculous angle b/c of the spin).
You really need to follow the advice in this thread and learn more, search for anything bob jewett has written.
You have perfectly described in this post how to find a sticks pivot point.
Bridging at the pivot point, you can use backhand english and do EXACTLY what you are describing (hit a ball head on, with max english, it traves in straight line into cushion but comes off at a ridiculous angle b/c of the spin).
You really need to follow the advice in this thread and learn more, search for anything bob jewett has written.
OUCH, My head now hurts and I believe my pool game will never be the same, I thought I had a lot of time? Anyone who is thinking this much about there shot has to miss.
I dont know exactly why but if I put english on the cue ball it makes the object balls do different things, I use this to make shots that dont look possible, many banks, is it not spin you put on the OB if you over cut a shot on the long rail and it banks back in the pocket you are standing at? I have made this shot on accident and on purpose and the only thing that makes sense is it transfered spin to the OB and then spun off the rail because it comes back the oppisite way it went into the rail.
I dont know exactly why but if I put english on the cue ball it makes the object balls do different things, I use this to make shots that dont look possible, many banks, is it not spin you put on the OB if you over cut a shot on the long rail and it banks back in the pocket you are standing at? I have made this shot on accident and on purpose and the only thing that makes sense is it transfered spin to the OB and then spun off the rail because it comes back the oppisite way it went into the rail.
Here you go, everything you asked for. The shot is about 40 seconds in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5cOLa7HtiM&NR=1
As requested the object ball goes more than a foot (in fact close to seven feet), in a straight line, and hits the cushion dead on (90 degrees). It returns at an angle which is obviously not straight back.
Throw can obviously be ruled out because you clearly see the object ball travel seven feet in a straight line before hitting the rail at exactly a 90 degree angle. The sole cause of the object ball rebounding at an angle is that it had picked up side spin that had been transferred from the cue ball (the cueball's left spin transferred right spin to the object ball).
In this particular case you even had collision induced spin that was trying to work against you (due to the cut angle the collision would try to transfer left spin to the object ball). Enough right spin was transferred to the object ball to overcome this and have enough left over to still be effective when it hit the rail seven feet down the table.
Also, the first shot about 20 seconds in on that same video also clearly shows the transfer of spin. The object ball is actually cut slightly up table, but it rebounds heading down table and into the corner pocket. The transfer of spin is what caused the reversal of direction off the rail. In this case the collision induced spin happened to be working with you instead of against you as it was in the second shot on the video.
In the third shot about 47 seconds in you can actually watch the transfer of spin happen on the high speed video. Need any more proof?
In the third shot about 47 seconds in you can actually watch the transfer of spin happen on the high speed video. Need any more proof?
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The video is useless. It shows the OB being hit off center and that contact is putting siding on the ball the same as a cue tip does. Neil did the boards, same results I had with shafts. I put 2 balls, 2 diamonds from the end rail and the OB came back between them every time. The transfer was very very little and would have no effect for aiding in a bank. Every example people are given has the OB contact point, left/right, of center. The is exactly what is done with the cue tip to put english on the CB!
I am going to be at an event this weekend with Tyler Edey entered (I think he will be there). I am going to ask him to try this and I will post what he thinks before and after the test. Not sure if Edwin M plays in this, if so, I ask do same with him
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Mike, you post really good video here. Can you post a transfer video. Maybe you could place an OB 1 or 2 diamonds off long side rail with a shaft on eash side and a CB 1 ft or more away between shafts. Bank that OB using only spin!
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You don't need all that nonsense. My simple shot setup eliminates the possibility of throw. Have either of you tried it? Or even tried to understand it? Or is all this just to give softshot his fifteen minutes of AzB fame?
pj
chgo
I have made it in matches! I am not hitting the OB dead middle. The CB hits left of center on the OB and this puts right left spin on the OB! Did you try the shafts! do the diagram above just once and post it!
If you posted a video claiming to prove that gravity no longer works I wouldn't bother to watch that either. Or is it that I have no rebuttal?
You really should at least consider what others are saying to you - you might avoid making yourself look stubbornly dense. Of course, it may be too late already.
pj
chgo
Then you didn't make it. Left spin would change the angle in the wrong direction. You guys are embarrassing yourselves.
pj
chgo
If you can watch that super slow mo shot of the cueball hitting the object ball, and CANT CLEAR AS DAY SEE the spin transfer, then its obvious that you just dont want to understand this.
One thing you have to take into account while your at the table, perspective can be hard to judge at times. A straight line isn't always a straight line. And on camera, without a reference line, its hard to tell what is, in fact, a straight line. Especially with cameras that have lens distortion. But as you can see, when I add a reference line and calculate the degrees, the object ball starts at -3.4 degrees off (from our perceptive). the moment after contact, its already spun to -2.3 degrees and is nearly "level" for us. By the time the object ball is nearly off screen, you can see its already spun about 1/8th of a ball. Granted, that isn't a huge amount of spin, but enough to either make or miss a ball.
After reading your posts, I don't expect you to understand. Its clear you have already made up your mind.
If you are betting that transferred spin does not exist then I will be happy to take your bet and show one single shot on video that is irrefutable proof that the object ball gets sidespin.
I submit that we each post our wager money with a reputable AZ Member. I nominate Roy Steffensen as he loves to gamble and is not part of this thread. We should both paypal our stake to him and in the spirit of gambling the winner will pick all associated Paypal fees (like table time).
We put it to a vote in a separate thread and let the votes decide.
Bet or no bet?
The whole point is, when you transfer spin, you throw the object ball off line. So if you hit the object ball square in the fact with spin, the object ball will be thrown X degrees off line, make contact with the rail which will show the effects of the spin as well.