Soft draw vs. medium draw.

JoeyA

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
While this doesn't look like a difficult shot, when I set it up dozens of times in a row I often have trouble pocketing the object ball every time.

I seldom ever miss it if if use follow or soft draw but when I use medium or hard draw even though I am aiming at the same aim point, I get very mixed results. This happens whether I am shooting the same shot on the other side of the table cutting the one ball to the left into the far left corner pocket.

I am just trying to figure out why the cue ball doesn't hit the correct aim point when I use medium draw. Hard draw I might understand but medium draw shouldn't be a problem but it is and I don't know what is happening.

CueTable Help


If I am hitting the cue ball with draw on the vertical axis, I was thinking it shouldn't make any difference if I hit a little firm or even a lot firm.

Do you have trouble making this shot virtually every time when using medium draw vs. soft draw or follow?

Thanks,

JoeyA
 
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JoeyA said:
While this doesn't look like a difficult shot, when I set it up dozens of times in a row I often have trouble pocketing the object ball every time.

I seldom ever miss it if if use follow or soft draw but when I use medium or hard draw even though I am aiming at the same aim point, I get very mixed results. This happens whether I am shooting the same shot on the other side of the table cutting the one ball to the left into the far left corner pocket.

I am just trying to figure out why the cue ball doesn't hit the correct aim point when I use medium draw. Hard draw I might understand but medium draw shouldn't be a problem but it is and I don't know what is happening.

If I am hitting the cue ball with draw on the vertical axis, I was thinking it shouldn't make any difference if I hit a little firm or even a lot firm.

Do you have trouble making this shot virtually every time when using medium draw vs. soft draw or follow?

Thanks,

JoeyA
Click to expand...
One thought: when you are jacked up just a little and hit with a medium stroke, you will tend to "hop" the cue ball slightly. A small hop will change where the cue ball contacts the object ball. Since you are dealing with spheres, this will change the object ball's trajectory. A little firm vs a lot firm will definitely change the results - sometimes dramatically.

When you shoot softly, you actually hit where you are aiming.

Try this: move the balls a little farther away from the rail and see if this improves your accuracy.

-td
 
Keep track of where the OB hits. Is it on the long rail or the short? You may be a little less accurate with your stroke than you may think...

When you hit the balls soft then your tip may hit within a mm of where you wanted. When you start to hit it a little more firm you may not be so accurate with your tip placement on impact...I think allot of times when I think I am hitting it dead center and I add a bunch of speed to the stroke. It hits the cueball left of where I wanted. This makes my cue ball travel right at the distance you showed...It causes a miss.

If I miss due to this flaw my ball will hit the short rail just next to the hole which sometimes is ok, cause it then has spin to bank long rail...we have all seen this happen.

If I miss cause of the bounce that TD873 mentioned. It will almost always hit the long rail just close to the hole...this has no chance of being a good slop shot now...
 
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td873 said:
One thought: when you are jacked up just a little and hit with a medium stroke, you will tend to "hop" the cue ball slightly. A small hop will change where the cue ball contacts the object ball. Since you are dealing with spheres, this will change the object ball's trajectory. A little firm vs a lot firm will definitely change the results - sometimes dramatically.

When you shoot softly, you actually hit where you are aiming.

Try this: move the balls a little farther away from the rail and see if this improves your accuracy.

-td
Click to expand...

Thomas,
I believe you are exactly right. When the cue ball is only 6" from the end rail, it is only natural to elevate your cue to avoid the rail and a faster stroke the greater the chance of hopping causing you to miss the proper contact point.

Thank you.
I don't know why I didn't think of that. :embarrassed2:

JoeyA
 
JamisonNeu said:
Keep track of where the OB hits. Is it on the long rail or the short? You may be a little less accurate with your stroke than you may think...

When you hit the balls soft then your tip may hit within a mm of where you wanted. When you start to hit it a little more firm you may not be so accurate with your tip placement on impact...I think allot of times when I think I am hitting it dead center and I add a bunch of speed to the stroke. It hits the cueball left of where I wanted. This makes my cue ball travel right at the distance you showed...It causes a miss.

If I miss due to this flaw my ball will hit the short rail just next to the hole which sometimes is ok, cause it then has spin to bank long rail...we have all seen this happen.

If I miss cause of the bounce that TD873 mentioned. It will almost always hit the short rail just close to the hole...this has no chance of being a good slop shot now...
Click to expand...


Thanks Jamison but I think Thomas pegged it right.
JoeyA
 
Center ball, if you are not consistently hitting center ball you will get mixed results. Make sure you are taking one last look at the cue ball before stroking the shot, the lower you strike the harder it is to hit center ball.
 
Theres ur answer right there

Patrick Johnson said:
A difference in speed can make a difference in the amount of throw.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Angle shots that are hit with increased speed whether draw or follow will have different throw than if hit at a slower speed. You have to compensate for that.
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
A difference in speed can make a difference in the amount of throw.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

I always assumed that throw entered into the picture only when side spin was used. :embarrassed2:

For the record, I shot this shot a couple of dozen times tonight and hit the shot hard with center draw but adjusted my aiming point to account for what I think is hop but which might include throw. Dang, is pool really that hard? :p I was able to pocket the object ball with great consistency simply by changing my aiming point. Basically, I hit the object ball a little fatter when I shoot the cue ball with a quicker stroke speed.

That seems to resolve the problem of missing. Previously I would overcut the one ball when hitting the cue ball with speed and center low draw and the OB would hit the side rail missing the corner pocket altogether.

Thanks to all who made thoughts and suggestions.

Pat, do you believe that the greater problem for missing the shot is because of cue ball hop or throw?
JoeyA
 
Slasher said:
Center ball, if you are not consistently hitting center ball you will get mixed results. Make sure you are taking one last look at the cue ball before stroking the shot, the lower you strike the harder it is to hit center ball.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty accurate with the vertical axis, Slasher and pay particular attention when hitting below center. Thanks,
JoeyA
 
JoeyA said:
I always assumed that throw entered into the picture only when side spin was used. :embarrassed2:
Click to expand...

Throw enters into the picture any time the CB's surface rubs across the OB's surface. If the CB hits the OB dead on, then its surface doesn't rub across the OB's surface unless it has sidespin. If the CB hits the OB at an angle, then its surface rubs across the OB's surface with or without sidespin (unless it has just the right amount of outside/running sidespin to cancel the "collision-induced" rubbing).

... I hit the object ball a little fatter when I shoot the cue ball with a quicker stroke speed.
Click to expand...

Throw decreases with speed, so that could be the reason.

Pat, do you believe that the greater problem for missing the shot is because of cue ball hop or throw?
Click to expand...

I think both are plausible. More speed/more hop would produce a bigger cut angle (by hitting the OB higher) and more speed/less throw would also produce a bigger cut angle. Maybe it's a combination of the two effects.

Dang, is pool really that hard?
Click to expand...

Nah, we just need something to talk about.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
More speed/more hop would produce a bigger cut angle (by hitting the OB higher) and more speed/less throw would also produce a bigger cut angle. Maybe it's a combination of the two effects.
Click to expand...
Good summary! I agree.

Regards,
Dave

PS to Joey: Throw varies with cut angle, speed, amount and type of English, amount of vertical-plane spin (top/stun/bottom), and ball conditions. For more info and details, see items 15-25 here:

 
to expand on jamison

Where are you missing? If you are consistently hitting the long rail (over cutting it) then I would think it is an aiming issue. It looks like the shot is a slight backwards cut and these tend to get slammed into the long rail for being overcut. I did this more times then not until I learned how to line up this shot correctly. You can't aim for back of center pocket on these shots + to reference Bert Kinister in his secrets of shotmaking video, there is a slight optical illusion.
The softer hit would also take into account pocket speed where as hitting it harder would lose that.
 
dr_dave said:
Good summary! I agree.

Regards,
Dave

PS to Joey: Throw varies with cut angle, speed, amount and type of English, amount of vertical-plane spin (top/stun/bottom), and ball conditions. For more info and details, see items 15-25 here:

Click to expand...

I also checked out your HIGH SPEED video clips on cut throw for high speed shots and low speed shots but since the cue ball didn't hit in the same exact spot on the OB for both shots, the clips did not provide the visual I was interested in seeing. (I wanted to see if the video clips showed the amount of throw difference between fast and slow speed cut shots of the same angle).

Thanks for the other info.
JoeyA
 
JoeyA said:
I also checked out your HIGH SPEED video clips on cut throw for high speed shots and low speed shots but since the cue ball didn't hit in the same exact spot on the OB for both shots, the clips did not provide the visual I was interested in seeing. (I wanted to see if the video clips showed the amount of throw difference between fast and slow speed cut shots of the same angle).
Click to expand...
Check out my September '06 article, which shows (with theoretical results and experimental data) how throw varies with cut angle and speed.

JoeyA said:
Thanks for the other info.
Click to expand...
You're welcome.

Regards,
Dave
 
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