Pause

[mikepage]

[...]
Now MY question is, for those who pause for a full second or more; why do you do that?

Roger

Many of the players with an extended pause at the backstroke use that time to switch focus from the cueball to the object ball.

Players with no backstroke pause generally switch focus to the object ball at the set pause.

In fact when I watch top players it's common to see a clear set pause where they're still as an oak tree with their eyes focused on the cueball. Then the beginning of drawing the cue back and the switch in eye focus seem to happen simultaneously.

I agree with your other comment Roger, that incorporating a backstroke pause during development of the stroke with a student is useful to encourage a slow deliberate backstroke and discourage the student from "jumping the gun" and rushing the transition.

 

[JimS]

We've had long discussions about this before.

This is not true.

A pause is something fundamentally different from the fact the cue's velocity goes through zero when it changes direction.

A pause means the forces on the cue are balanced (no net force) and the cue is held in place. Because gravity always acts on the cue, this means the arm muscles are providing an opposing force.

If you examined Allison or Buddy during their backstroke pause, you'd find a balancing force on the cue. It is not true that their stroke only differs from the many other top players with no backstroke pause by a length of time in the backstroke position. The fundamental difference pausers and non pausers is whether an opposing force exists that holds the cue in place.

A pendulum (child on a swing) and a ball thrown straight up have no pause. The fact the velocity goes through zero is a red herring.

If you wanted a child on a swing to pause at the back of the arc, even for a very short amount of time, you'd have to reach out and hold the swing (even if just for a very short amount of time).

It is important that the transition to forward motion be smooth.


THE NO-PAUSE STROKE:

Slowing down the backstroke and imagining you're letting the cue do it's own pendulum style transition before accelerating forward is a good idea. So in a proper no-bause stroke, the tricep pulls the cue back with a force that smoothly diminishes to zero near the transition. At the transition neither the tricep nor the bicep is contracted and the cue and forearm are doing their thing under the influence of gravity. Then when the cue starts "falling forward," the bicep starts pulling and therefore accelerating the cue forward.

THE PAUSE STROKE:

Here you still do a slow backstroke with the tricep pulling the cue back with a force that diminishes to near zero. Then at the apex of the backstroke the tricep force stays at a level sufficient to hold the cue in place for a desired length of time (could be a couple tenths of a second, could be a few seconds). At the end of the pause the tricep relaxes and the bicep accelerates the cue forward.

Ahem.... I knew that. But you sure say it a lot better. :groucho:

And..... since I started doing the long pause, ala Buddy and/or Allison, I play better.... quite a bit better. That pause is what my stroke needed, especially if I'm nervous. That pause makes the forward delivery much more de-lib-er-ate, and consequenlty accurate... for me.

 

[JimS]

That is my intention. I try.

I should add..... I also learned it from you. Thanks.

 

[Roger Long]

We've had long discussions about this before.

This is not true.

A pause is something fundamentally different from the fact the cue's velocity goes through zero when it changes direction.

A pause means the forces on the cue are balanced (no net force) and the cue is held in place. Because gravity always acts on the cue, this means the arm muscles are providing an opposing force.

If you examined Allison or Buddy during their backstroke pause, you'd find a balancing force on the cue. It is not true that their stroke only differs from the many other top players with no backstroke pause by a length of time in the backstroke position. The fundamental difference pausers and non pausers is whether an opposing force exists that holds the cue in place.

A pendulum (child on a swing) and a ball thrown straight up have no pause. The fact the velocity goes through zero is a red herring.

If you wanted a child on a swing to pause at the back of the arc, even for a very short amount of time, you'd have to reach out and hold the swing (even if just for a very short amount of time).

It is important that the transition to forward motion be smooth.


THE NO-PAUSE STROKE:

Slowing down the backstroke and imagining you're letting the cue do it's own pendulum style transition before accelerating forward is a good idea. So in a proper no-bause stroke, the tricep pulls the cue back with a force that smoothly diminishes to zero near the transition. At the transition neither the tricep nor the bicep is contracted and the cue and forearm are doing their thing under the influence of gravity. Then when the cue starts "falling forward," the bicep starts pulling and therefore accelerating the cue forward.

THE PAUSE STROKE:

Here you still do a slow backstroke with the tricep pulling the cue back with a force that diminishes to near zero. Then at the apex of the backstroke the tricep force stays at a level sufficient to hold the cue in place for a desired length of time (could be a couple tenths of a second, could be a few seconds). At the end of the pause the tricep relaxes and the bicep accelerates the cue forward.

Mike,

I understand what you're trying to say here; but does everyone? I mean, I just think this might be a bit of overkill. Should a player really have to know all about gravity and balanced forces, and what the triceps and biceps are doing, in order to adopt a backswing pause?

Sometimes over-complication results in faulty edumication. :wink:

Roger

 

[mikepage]

Mike,

I understand what you're trying to say here; but does everyone? I mean, I just think this might be a bit of overkill. Should a player really have to know all about gravity and balanced forces, and what the triceps and biceps are doing, in order to adopt a backswing pause?

Sometimes over-complication results in faulty edumication. :wink:

Roger

You're missing the point Roger. Of course a player doesn't need to know about gravity and balanced forces. If you think I say things like that to a student, you're quite wrong.

But I'm not talking to a student. Here, it's not overkill at all. It's about understanding what's going on at the pool table. I'm trying to make fellow instructors understand one simple point:

Some players pause at the backstroke
Other players don't pause at the backstroke.

The reason I went into some detail is that I heard again the oft quoted incorrect idea that because the cue has to turn around, all players pause. That's just not true.

 

[Voodoo Daddy]

I have that pause or hitch on my last stroke when the ball is very long and straight...I feel its more like a cinch stroke. But I dont teach it...

 

[Roger Long]

You're missing the point Roger. Of course a player doesn't need to know about gravity and balanced forces. If you think I say things like that to a student, you're quite wrong.

But I'm not talking to a student. Here, it's not overkill at all. It's about understanding what's going on at the pool table. I'm trying to make fellow instructors understand one simple point:

Some players pause at the backstroke
Other players don't pause at the backstroke.

The reason I went into some detail is that I heard again the oft quoted incorrect idea that because the cue has to turn around, all players pause. That's just not true.

Okay, Mike, I will have to agree with you. As instructors, whether we are going to teach in favor of, or against, a backswing pause, we must first define a pause, and a simple turn around in the cue direction is not a pause. I stand corrected.

Roger

 

[Ponytail]

Yes...

The two main muscles you use in a stroke are the Triceps (back stroke) and Biceps (forward stroke). If you stroke fast, then both sets of muscles can be, being used at the same time, interfering with each other.

With a pause on your back stroke, you let your triceps relax before your biceps contract. This makes for a much more consistent result.

A nice byproduct of this is you tend not to jerk your stroke.

 

[mikepage]

Yes...

The two main muscles you use in a stroke are the Triceps (back stroke) and Biceps (forward stroke). If you stroke fast, then both sets of muscles can be, being used at the same time, interfering with each other.

With a pause on your back stroke, you let your triceps relax before your biceps contract. This makes for a much more consistent result.

A nice byproduct of this is you tend not to jerk your stroke.

I don't think this is the right reason to insert a pause. The real problem you describe is a faulty backstroke--one that is too fast. With a proper slow backstroke you shouldn't have to put on the breaks to end it with the bicep.

So to me inserting a pause is fine. But doing it to fix a rapid backstroke/jerky transition is masking the real problem.

 

[Scott Lee]

Sorry Mike, but we'll just have to agree to disagree. ALL poolplayers pause in the backswing. Good ones do it on purpose. The pause in the backswing can last from a very brief 1/10 of a second, up to several seconds. A good stroke does demand a smooth transition, from backswing to forward stroke. Pause is just a label that we use to describe the transition. Maybe you'll believe it from Randy. My words come straight from him. You can play semantics with the words, but the action remains the same. The cue has to stop, to change direction. We just try to see that it isn't an abrupt stop (i.e. 'the jerk'). In the case where it is abrupt, we DO suggest a 'defined' (read: longer) pause at the end of the backswing...which allows the student to relax, regrip, and accelerate the cue to their natural finish.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

But I'm not talking to a student. Here, it's not overkill at all. It's about understanding what's going on at the pool table. I'm trying to make fellow instructors understand one simple point:

Some players pause at the backstroke
Other players don't pause at the backstroke.

The reason I went into some detail is that I heard again the oft quoted incorrect idea that because the cue has to turn around, all players pause. That's just not true.

 

[JimS]

I don't define pause as the turn-a-round. I think a pause has occurred when a player consciously stops at the back of the swing and then consciously strokes forward.

The key word obviously being.... consciously. It the player didn't pause on purpose then there was no pause... imo, but what do I know.. it's just an opinion.

 

[mikepage]

[...] A good stroke does demand a smooth transition, from backswing to forward stroke.

On that we all agree.

Pause is just a label that we use to describe the transition.

I know that. But I think a lot of other people don't know that.

Maybe you'll believe it from Randy.

Believe what? You mean believe that "pause" is just a label you use for the transition? I already believe that.

You can play semantics with the words, but the action remains the same. The cue has to stop, to change direction. We just try to see that it isn't an abrupt stop (i.e. 'the jerk'). In the case where it is abrupt, we DO suggest a 'defined' (read: longer) pause at the end of the backswing...which allows the student to relax, regrip, and accelerate the cue to their natural finish.

I agree our difference is semantic, and that we agree in substance. But is it really fair to assign only one of us to be "playing semantics"?

I use the word the way Snooker great Steve Davis uses it:

"The biggest fault that occasional players like you make is that they're in free fall from the instant they pull the cue back. It's like the caddie says to the golfer: 'If you could slow your backswing down to a blur, sir, you'd be a much better player'. You need to feel that you're pulling back at half-speed, quarter-speed even, and then pausing before the push-through.

"Most of the players - myself, Stephen Hendry - have some sort of pause. A few don't pause - Jimmy White, Tony Drago - but the suspicion is always that they'd be even better if they did. Paul Hunter hasn't got much of one, but he's got one. Ronnie has one, but then of course there's a style within the style."

 

[Roger Long]

The reason I went into some detail is that I heard again the oft quoted incorrect idea that because the cue has to turn around, all players pause. That's just not true.

Mike:

This is what you told me earlier. Now you're agreeing with Scott that the word "pause" is just a label for the transition from the back stroke to the forward stroke, and that transition time can be as short as 1/10 of a second. I don't think you can have it both ways.


And Scott:

I only bring this up because I think it is important for you and the other SPF instructors to have a clear definition of what a pause is when SPF stands for Set-PAUSE-Finish. You know how much controversy those three little words have stirred over in the other threads.

Again, I believe in using a pause and I teach it to my students, but it is okay with me if guys like you and Mike make up its actual definition.

Roger

 

[mikepage]

Mike:

This is what you told me earlier. Now you're agreeing with Scott that the word "pause" is just a label for the transition from the back stroke to the forward stroke, and that transition time can be as short as 1/10 of a second. I don't think you can have it both ways.

Here is what I said,

"Believe what? You mean believe that "pause" is just a label you use for the transition? I already believe that."

What I meant is that I believe Scott and Randy use the word that way, not that I use the word that way and not that I think their's is a reasonable use of the word.

I think their use of the word confuses people. Suppose you go to a pro tournament and and ask the players whether they agree with the following statement:

Some professional players pause at the backstroke, and others don't

pretty much everybody would agree with this statement, imo.

If so, then that means they cannot be using the word the way Scott does. To Scott that would be the ridiculous statement that some pros never turn their cue around.

They would be using the word the way I do, the way Steve Davis does, the way it is used in golf, and weightlifting, and consistent with physics.

And Scott:

I only bring this up because I think it is important for you and the other SPF instructors to have a clear definition of what a pause is when SPF stands for Set-PAUSE-Finish. You know how much controversy those three little words have stirred over in the other threads.

Again, I believe in using a pause and I teach it to my students, but it is okay with me if guys like you and Mike make up its actual definition.

Roger

I hope people understand that when you used the word pause in the last sentence, you used like I do, and specifically not like Scott does. If pause merely meant turning the cue around, then I believe in using a pause and I teach it to my students
would imply you're contrasting yourself with some other instructors, who advocate never turning the cue around. I guess they'd be able to say none of their students has ever missed a shot!

 

[Roger Long]

I THINK we are in agreement, Mike. At least it sounds like we are.

But my real point was just this: I think the word "pause" needs a more specific definition than the one given by the dictionary when it is used in conjunction with the pool stroke. In other words, it should have a minimum time limit assigned to it in order to be considered a true pause. I am willing to defer to someone else what that time limit should be, but unless there is one forthcoming soon, I will set one for myself.

Also, the name of this particular forum is "Ask The Instructor," not "Correct The Other Instructors," so our goal here should be to give players clear and simple answers to their questions. I don't think we should be indulging in debates between ourselves. We have PM's for that.

Respectfully,
Roger

 

[Rich93]

On the semantics issue - To a non-SPF tutored person like me, pause means "stop and hold it". I have to agree with Mike that many top players do not pause in this sense. To say everybody pauses seems to rob the word of meaning.

On the substance issue - Whether it's something everybody should strive for is another question. Some great players pause, e.g., Buddy. Some do not, e.g., Efren. To those who see a pause in Efren's stroke, please view the following. If you think there's a pause there at the end of his backswing, you must see a pause in everybody's backswing - and, come to think of it, that is what you are saying. But watch anyway, even if you've seen it before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDoGDojBzRM

Now, I suppose, a la Steve Davis, you could say "think how much better Efren would be if he would pause". To that I say :rotflmao1:

 

[Rich93]

Also, the name of this particular forum is "Ask The Instructor," not "Correct The Other Instructors," so our goal here should be to give players clear and simple answers to their questions. I don't think we should be indulging in debates between ourselves. We have PM's for that.

Respectfully,
Roger

As a student rather than an instructor, I respectfully disagree, Roger. I think a student should be exposed to a variety of expert opinion rather than just hear one "generally accepted" view. I'm glad Mike jumped in with his opinion - it made a lot of sense to me.

In the absence of some sort of experimental proof that A works better than B, which for most things in pool is impossible, I think we need to hear from both A and B proponents and give both a fair trial for ourselves on the table.

 

[Roger Long]

As a student rather than an instructor, I respectfully disagree, Roger. I think a student should be exposed to a variety of expert opinion rather than just hear one "generally accepted" view. I'm glad Mike jumped in with his opinion - it made a lot of sense to me.

In the absence of some sort of experimental proof that A works better than B, which for most things in pool is impossible, I think we need to hear from both A and B proponents and give both a fair trial for ourselves on the table.

Rich93:

That's a very good point. If you think people benefit from debates, then I will continue to debate when necessary. I just want to take care not to become too dogmatic with my opinions. (After all, I could often be wrong, ya know. )

Thanks for the input.

Roger

 

[3kushn]

On the substance issue - Whether it's something everybody should strive for is another question. Some great players pause, e.g., Buddy. Some do not, e.g., Efren. To those who see a pause in Efren's stroke, please view the following. If you think there's a pause there at the end of his backswing, you must see a pause in everybody's backswing - and, come to think of it, that is what you are saying. But watch anyway, even if you've seen it before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDoGDojBzRM

Now, I suppose, a la Steve Davis, you could say "think how much better Efren would be if he would pause". To that I say :rotflmao1:

Nor would someone tell Steve Davis "If you would just stroke the ball like Efren think how much better you could be."

The pause is like so many other areas of the fundamentals of this game and all other games. There is no hard fast rules that say if you don't do this or that, it's impossible to play at a high level. There's always exceptions. There's always those that excel even though they're very unorthodox.

IMO the shortest path is to follow established techniques when learning the game. Established fundamentals facilitates establishing advanced techniques.

I think the question might be, If Efren were taught a pendulum stroke, a pause and all the rest, when he first stepped up to a table, would he have entered the world scene any sooner in his career than he did? How many more hours of practice and honing did it take with his unorthodox method? Who knows, with Efren maybe only 1 more hour, but probably a few years.

 

[3kushn]

I THINK we are in agreement, Mike. At least it sounds like we are.

Also, the name of this particular forum is "Ask The Instructor," not "Correct The Other Instructors," so our goal here should be to give players clear and simple answers to their questions. I don't think we should be indulging in debates between ourselves. We have PM's for that.

Respectfully,
Roger

Rodger

I kinda disagree. The bantering between instructors makes the discussion more complete. One instructor may miss a point. Not necessarily that they're not aware of it. It simply wasn't mentioned. Even if there's total disagreement it's good to hear it. All of you guys are serious, well trained instructors. Some have forgotten more than I know and may need reminding. That's good for all of us.

The reason this game is so great is that nobody will ever know everything.