Hatred for jump cues.

Johnnyt said:
Tap, tap, this oldtimer agrees. What I hate about jump cues is when you safe someone so they can't hit the OB w/o going a few rails and all they need to do is do a simple jump to get out of it. That takes way too much away from the defensive part of the game. A lot of players on here haven't been playing long enough to have played w/o them, so they really don't know where we're coming from on jump cues. Johnnyt
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Well like i said before if you play safe and hook the other player and he jumps a ball to hit the o/b then you need to play a better safty. try leaving the o/b behide a ball so we can't jump. When you leave the cue ball behide a ball we can jump but if you put the o/b behide a ball we can't.

And as far as you oldtimers the game has changed, And so should the players. Ppl say its easer to jump a ball then to kick at a ball. Well in some ways yall are right but in other ways your wrong. Its alot harder control the balls path when you jump.
 
CHRIS_SPORT said:
Well like i said before if you play safe and hook the other player and he jumps a ball to hit the o/b then you need to play a better safty. try leaving the o/b behide a ball so we can't jump. When you leave the cue ball behide a ball we can jump but if you put the o/b behide a ball we can't.

And as far as you oldtimers the game has changed, And so should the players. Ppl say its easer to jump a ball then to kick at a ball. Well in some ways yall are right but in other ways your wrong. Its alot harder control the balls path when you jump.
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And you've been playing how many months? Johnnyt
 
CHRIS_SPORT said:
Well like i said before if you play safe and hook the other player and he jumps a ball to hit the o/b then you need to play a better safty. try leaving the o/b behide a ball so we can't jump. When you leave the cue ball behide a ball we can jump but if you put the o/b behide a ball we can't.

And as far as you oldtimers the game has changed, And so should the players. Ppl say its easer to jump a ball then to kick at a ball. Well in some ways yall are right but in other ways your wrong. Its alot harder control the balls path when you jump.
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LMFAO, this is so funny. So, to play safe now, we have to leave the object ball behind another ball? That's freaking hilarious. How about we get rid of the short stick and see if you can jump with a full length cue, the way the REAL players can? If you don't have the 40" jump rod, you can't pull off those pogo stick jump shots to save you. Efren Reyes used to win a lot. There used to be a lot of repetitive names in the winner's circle at tournaments. Then, the Bunjee jumper came out. Then the AirTime, and then the Air. Kicking as an art is all but gone. When players are hooked, 90%+ of the time I see them go for the short stick. I would hazzard a guess that you would see certain names at the top 5 in the world on a routine basis if the jump stick happened to disappear.

The problem is there is too much financial motivation to keep the jump cue around. Pure and simple, it's about money. I wish they'd realize there is a correlation between jump cues and cueballs bouncing off the table. Maybe someone could present these findings to the BCAPL and get the jump cue banned as well. Oh, that would be a happy day - I could actually earn BIH for a well played safety again instead of seeing Mini Me bail out yet another hack who doesn't need to learn how to kick multiple rails.
 
If we got to ban jump cues, why shouldn't we ban fast cloth, chalks (as John said earlier), break cue, or even tips. It all make the game easier. Then we can go back to play pool like it first invented.
Look at China domination at table tennis, the rules keep changing but they still find a way to adapt and conquer. Imho we all should do the same, adapt & master it.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
LMFAO, this is so funny. So, to play safe now, we have to leave the object ball behind another ball? That's freaking hilarious. How about we get rid of the short stick and see if you can jump with a full length cue, the way the REAL players can? If you don't have the 40" jump rod, you can't pull off those pogo stick jump shots to save you. Efren Reyes used to win a lot. There used to be a lot of repetitive names in the winner's circle at tournaments. Then, the Bunjee jumper came out. Then the AirTime, and then the Air. Kicking as an art is all but gone. When players are hooked, 90%+ of the time I see them go for the short stick. I would hazzard a guess that you would see certain names at the top 5 in the world on a routine basis if the jump stick happened to disappear.

The problem is there is too much financial motivation to keep the jump cue around. Pure and simple, it's about money. I wish they'd realize there is a correlation between jump cues and cueballs bouncing off the table. Maybe someone could present these findings to the BCAPL and get the jump cue banned as well. Oh, that would be a happy day - I could actually earn BIH for a well played safety again instead of seeing Mini Me bail out yet another hack who doesn't need to learn how to kick multiple rails.
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Yeah i can jump with my playing cue but why when you have a cue made for it. You do not have to brake a jump/brake down to jump. I don't unless i'm like two or three inch from a ball. I can't help that ppl like you get mad when we jump a ball and get out or hook yall. And why should we have to kick at balls that we can jump thats just crazy. Yall may think that jump cues are bull but alot of your so called REAL PLAYERS have and use them. and whats the big deal about jumping anyway its the same as any other shot
 
quanz said:
if we got to ban jump cues, why shouldn't we ban fast cloth, chalks (as john said earlier), break cue, or even tips. It all make the game easier. Then we can go back to play pool like it first invented.
Look at china domination at table tennis, the rules keep changing but they still find a way to adapt and conquer. Imho we all should do the same, adapt & master it.
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thank you at least i know some one see my point
 
CHRIS_SPORT said:
And why should we have to kick at balls that we can jump thats just crazy.
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Why don't you just play computer pool with the lines that go from the cueball to the object ball and from object ball to the pocket so you can tell you are aiming the shot perfectly. Many of those games have no stroke mechanics even, you just choose your spot on the cueball for the spin, choose the power you want to hit the shot with, and everything works exactly as you choose, the balls go exactly where they told you with the lines that they were going to go. It seems like the perfect game for you, why are you messing around with the real thing?
 
Celtic said:
Why don't you just play computer pool with the lines that go from the cueball to the object ball and from object ball to the pocket so you can tell you are aiming the shot perfectly. Many of those games have no stroke mechanics even, you just choose your spot on the cueball for the spin, choose the power you want to hit the shot with, and everything works exactly as you choose, the balls go exactly where they told you with the lines that they were going to go. It seems like the perfect game for you, why are you messing around with the real thing?
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WOW WE HAVE A WISE A** IN HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm glad you thank that is funny but no one never said we didn't know how to kick
 
I'm glad you thank that is funny but no one never said we didn't know how to kick
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No problem. I just hope they can dumb the game down further for you so that the skill required to play it is diminished even further. In time perhaps a match will be little more then a flip of a coin since skill will be a non-issue, I cannot wait.

Don't you "thank" that will be awesome?
 
Lol, I think half of the people opposed to jump cues must not have ever picked one up. There's nothing magical about using a jump cue, you don't use one and then instantly are able to jump, kick precisely, or even jump and pocket balls. Just jumping reliably takes practice, contrary to what everyone likes to say about it, and making it accurate takes a LOT of practice. And how is this dumbing the game down? You make jumping a little easier, which makes playing a good safety all that more important.
 
xxmerlinxx said:
lol, i think half of the people opposed to jump cues must not have ever picked one up. There's nothing magical about using a jump cue, you don't use one and then instantly are able to jump, kick precisely, or even jump and pocket balls. Just jumping reliably takes practice, contrary to what everyone likes to say about it, and making it accurate takes a lot of practice. And how is this dumbing the game down? You make jumping a little easier, which makes playing a good safety all that more important.
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got that sh*t right
 
Jump Cue

I like using jump cues, and it keeps people who play poor safeties from being rewarded. Being a good jumper takes a lot of time to learn. I use it both offensively and defensively. I have played position for a jump before. A week I spend about 1-3 hours jumping. Now because of practice my skill level in jumping is I would say pretty good, better then most masters players I have met. This gives me an edge you could have if willing to spend that amount of time. Equally to be good at playing safe, its takes a lot of time and practice. But that doesn't mean that the practice that I put in to get out of that situation should be in vain. When someone im playing gets mad because they played safe and I jumped and pocketed the object ball, I tell them to play a better safety next time. Thats like me complaining if someone can masse better than I can, so they get out of situations easier. If I was that concerned I would spend my time becoming better at masse.

I understand the frustration though, happens to me too. I just think that its a skill as is playing safe. I think its a legitimate point of view, and I see and believe yours is too. But thats just my opinion.


Jude Rosenstock said:
On the otherhand, these jump cues are getting better and better every year. There are guys getting the cueball to hop over nearly any non-frozen situation. Safety play is completely different because of it and I'm not very happy with this simple truth.
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I THINK THAT THAT MAY BE THE CASE , THEY HAVE NOT FIGURED OUT HOW TO JUMP , THATS WHY THEY ARE AGAINST IT , AT LEAST THATS THE PROBLEM WITH GUY'S IN SOME OF THE LEAGUES AROUND , THEY ARE OLDER GUYS ALSO ,AND THEY WILL TELL YA STRAIGHT OUT THEY TRIED IT BUT CANT GET IT DONE , SO IT'S A BAD THING !!!!!!!!:eek:
 
ARROWCRUSHER said:
I THINK THAT THAT MAY BE THE CASE , THEY HAVE NOT FIGURED OUT HOW TO JUMP , THATS WHY THEY ARE AGAINST IT , AT LEAST THATS THE PROBLEM WITH GUY'S IN SOME OF THE LEAGUES AROUND , THEY ARE OLDER GUYS ALSO ,AND THEY WILL TELL YA STRAIGHT OUT THEY TRIED IT BUT CANT GET IT DONE , SO IT'S A BAD THING !!!!!!!!:eek:
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That the way it is here the only ppl that don't like jump shots are old man that can't jump. But hey I can't masse so I larened how to jump And yea i would just practice 10 hours a week just on jump shots
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
LMFAO, this is so funny. So, to play safe now, we have to leave the object ball behind another ball? That's freaking hilarious. How about we get rid of the short stick and see if you can jump with a full length cue, the way the REAL players can? If you don't have the 40" jump rod, you can't pull off those pogo stick jump shots to save you. Efren Reyes used to win a lot. There used to be a lot of repetitive names in the winner's circle at tournaments. Then, the Bunjee jumper came out. Then the AirTime, and then the Air. Kicking as an art is all but gone. When players are hooked, 90%+ of the time I see them go for the short stick. I would hazzard a guess that you would see certain names at the top 5 in the world on a routine basis if the jump stick happened to disappear.

The problem is there is too much financial motivation to keep the jump cue around. Pure and simple, it's about money. I wish they'd realize there is a correlation between jump cues and cueballs bouncing off the table. Maybe someone could present these findings to the BCAPL and get the jump cue banned as well. Oh, that would be a happy day - I could actually earn BIH for a well played safety again instead of seeing Mini Me bail out yet another hack who doesn't need to learn how to kick multiple rails.
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You know Shawn you are a very smart guy, you make cues or repair them, in any case you know a lot about cues.

So I will ask you this question? Is it possible that you can give Earl Strickland two cues "off the rack" and with one of them he will be able to jump balls as he is known for and with the other one he will struggle to be able to make even half the jump shots he normally would?

The jump cue was INVENTED by Pat Fleming who IS a "real player". It was popularized by Sammy Jones, who is a "real player". Meucci even put out a video with Sammy showing off the jump cue and what he could do with it.

As to the tired, really really really tired, red herring of an argument that jumping replaces kicking can you explain then why there are now more books and dvds on kicking systems than ever before in the history of the game? There are even posters to hang in pool rooms explaining the diamond system, which makes it EASY to kick one, two, three, and four rails. Why are there so many books and dvds on kicking but none devoted to jumping if jumping has replaced kicking.

The FACT of the matter is that experienced players who play under TODAY'S conditions use every available tool that they can to make a good shot and get the result that they want.

This means that when they are faced with a shot they decide what is the best means to shoot it, be it a jump shot or a kick shot. And REAL players will have mastered both and be adept at figuring out their own success rate with either.

I find it truly hilarious that the argument against jump cues so very often centers around the idea that it makes the game easier for bangers and that just pisses off the self-styled good players and purists here. Do you get just as pissed off when a banger WITHOUT a jump cue lucks in a three rail kick shot? You know it happens, you have seen it happen, you have had it happen to you. If I am playing a banger I know that whatever they do with a jump cue is going to be low-percentage. So in my opinion I hope they try to jump everything. Of course I am the kind of person that will very often take the banger aside and TEACH them how to use the jump cue properly.

Why you would want to take away a functional tool that was invented by better players than yourself in order to fill a need that they saw in the rules is beyond me. You might be the kind of person who would have sought to ban the leather tip when Captain Mignaud brought it out because it made the game easier for bangers, completely ignoring how it made the game so much deeper for REAL PLAYERS.
 
jb cases said:
you know shawn you are a very smart guy, you make cues or repair them, in any case you know a lot about cues.

So i will ask you this question? Is it possible that you can give earl strickland two cues "off the rack" and with one of them he will be able to jump balls as he is known for and with the other one he will struggle to be able to make even half the jump shots he normally would?

The jump cue was invented by pat fleming who is a "real player". It was popularized by sammy jones, who is a "real player". Meucci even put out a video with sammy showing off the jump cue and what he could do with it.

As to the tired, really really really tired, red herring of an argument that jumping replaces kicking can you explain then why there are now more books and dvds on kicking systems than ever before in the history of the game? There are even posters to hang in pool rooms explaining the diamond system, which makes it easy to kick one, two, three, and four rails. Why are there so many books and dvds on kicking but none devoted to jumping if jumping has replaced kicking.

The fact of the matter is that experienced players who play under today's conditions use every available tool that they can to make a good shot and get the result that they want.

This means that when they are faced with a shot they decide what is the best means to shoot it, be it a jump shot or a kick shot. And real players will have mastered both and be adept at figuring out their own success rate with either.

I find it truly hilarious that the argument against jump cues so very often centers around the idea that it makes the game easier for bangers and that just pisses off the self-styled good players and purists here. Do you get just as pissed off when a banger without a jump cue lucks in a three rail kick shot? You know it happens, you have seen it happen, you have had it happen to you. If i am playing a banger i know that whatever they do with a jump cue is going to be low-percentage. So in my opinion i hope they try to jump everything. Of course i am the kind of person that will very often take the banger aside and teach them how to use the jump cue properly.

Why you would want to take away a functional tool that was invented by better players than yourself in order to fill a need that they saw in the rules is beyond me. You might be the kind of person who would have sought to ban the leather tip when captain mignaud brought it out because it made the game easier for bangers, completely ignoring how it made the game so much deeper for real players.
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wow all i can say wow thank you for making a good point
 
CHRIS_SPORT said:
That the way it is here the only ppl that don't like jump shots are old man that can't jump. But hey I can't masse so I larened how to jump And yea i would just practice 10 hours a week just on jump shots
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Actually, if I had kept data on who bought jump cues and were eager to learn how to jump then the data would show a fair number of "old" men and women league players who desired to add a new skill to their game.

I can easily say that I have personally taught and sold jump cues to more than 4000 people over a seven year span of going to shows and doing a jump cue only booth.

There are a lot of people here who don't like jump cues. For some reason they are very polarizing. Many young folks don't like them either.

For some reason they can't see the correlation between a chalked leather tip and a jump cue.

A chalked leather tip is what allows you to control the cue ball with as much precision as you skill can produce. Want to draw the cueball exactly 8 inches consistently? Then no matter how skilled you are you CANNOT do it without a chalked tip. Want to draw the cueball three rails - it's IMPOSSIBLE without a chalked tip. With a chalked tip it's 100% possible and then ONLY LIMITATION is your own skill.

Thus the chalked tip is completely the same for everyone, available to everyone, and gives EVERYONE the SAME amount of POSSIBLE shots.

A jump cue is NO DIFFERENT - NONE - it is the same for everyone - gives all users the same amount of POSSIBLE shots. The way it is made - like the chalked tip does for the application of spin - allows for the physical act of jumping to be easier but it does not PERFORM that act by itself.


People have the fantasy and misconception that jumping with a full cue is the holy grail of jumping. It's not. It's like trying to eat soup with a tiny spoon, the wrong tool for the job. You can do it but it's difficult and the results are inconsistent. Some cues are better to jump with than others, some people have better physical characteristics that make it easier or harder for them to jump balls. This is like saying that the holy grail of three cushion billiards is to run a 15 without chalking your tip.

Jumping with a full cue does take a tremendous amount of skill. So did throwing a spear at 100 yards and killing a deer. Today we use rifles instead of spears and it still takes skills to use the rifle properly. Give the stone age hunter the choice between the spear and the rifle and the stone age hunter will choose the rifle every time.

Just as today's professional players choose the jump cue over the full cue for the jump shot. Who are we as amateurs to dictate to the professionals what equipment they should use? Especially when the equipment was INVENTED by professionals.
 
Can't rep you as usual jb cuz I musta repped you for something else recently. Seems like I'm always running into that.

A minor thing I wanted to reply to is that I only meant that a safe result after a jump usually seems like luck, not the jump itself. I know that making the ball is a matter of skill and you can change how much draw etc. to put on it.

But I can't remember seeing anything that looked like an intentional jump safety. Whereas safe results from kicks are often clearly planned. The point being that it's nuts when people imply jumps replace years of kicking experience. Safety kicking is a huge part of high level 9b/10b and you can practice jumps all day and not be able to get the same results as some common simple kick safeties.

also -

Re: you can learn kicks in half an hour... while I don't agree with the haters who see jumps as a quick 30 minute replacement to thousands of hours of kicking practice... It's overdoing it to say you can learn kicking just as quickly as jumping.

Kicking has more variables to learn and deal with. For example in Grady's "only kicks" video I think he has over 90 kicks, and while it's not 90 different diamond systems or anything, it's definitely more than you can learn in half an hour. He's cramming all 90 into an hour and that's showing each type only once.
 
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