Do you manipulate your stroke for extreme English?

[Matt Stockman]

I've been videotaping my practice lately in an effort to really nail down all the fundamentals of a straight and repeatable action. While observing my tapes Ive noticed that I tend to steer the cue a little when Im trying to really load up on English - especially inside english. Its particularly evident when Im shooting into the corners and coming off the short rail for position back up table.

Ive been told by some players that english is created through the cueball and that you should try to cue up as close to the center as possible each time, however, in my youtube observations, I've noticed the top pros still stroke nice and straight no matter what they are doing with the cue ball, while some of these experts I talk to will take some funny looking strokes to get the english they want.

I realize this is a pretty subjective "feel" oriented question, but what is the most dependable and accurate way to generate the english you want? should it be done through the cue ball? or should be done by tip placement and aiming?

 

[pooltchr]

English is imparted to the cue ball based on where the tip makes contact with the cue ball. It is only in contact for about 1/1000 of a second, so any "steering" action has virtually no impact on the amount of english applied. It can, however, cause you to make contact in the wrong spot on the cue ball.

A consistent stroke, with accurate tip placement on the cue ball, will get you whatever english you need.

Steve

 

[Andrew Manning]

I've been videotaping my practice lately in an effort to really nail down all the fundamentals of a straight and repeatable action. While observing my tapes Ive noticed that I tend to steer the cue a little when Im trying to really load up on English - especially inside english. Its particularly evident when Im shooting into the corners and coming off the short rail for position back up table.

Ive been told by some players that english is created through the cueball and that you should try to cue up as close to the center as possible each time, however, in my youtube observations, I've noticed the top pros still stroke nice and straight no matter what they are doing with the cue ball, while some of these experts I talk to will take some funny looking strokes to get the english they want.

I realize this is a pretty subjective "feel" oriented question, but what is the most dependable and accurate way to generate the english you want? should it be done through the cue ball? or should be done by tip placement and aiming?

I don't know what you mean by "through the cue ball", but a straight stroke is always the most predictable and repeatable, regardless of the amount of english used.

-Andrew

 

[Matt Stockman]

I don't know what you mean by "through the cue ball", but a straight stroke is always the most predictable and repeatable, regardless of the amount of english used.

-Andrew

Maybe "through the cue ball" was a bad description. Ive just noticed some players cue up in the center of the ball with their practice strokes then alter the path of their stroke through the ball. Danny Basovich appears to do this from what I've seen of him on youtube.

I guess this idea is sort of difficult to articulate. Its just that when Im faced with a stroke shot sometimes I think of the feel of the stroke through the cue ball. I look at it as a feel type thing, I guess from what I've gathered from these two posts, thats not going to get me anywhere:embarrassed2:

Thanks for the feedback guys. I will work on developing english through cue tip position and aiming, Maybe then I can have a stroke I can find for more than 3 racks a night.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Even if you could somehow "swipe" your tip sideways across the surface of the cue ball while consistently hitting exactly the right spot on the cue ball and with your tip traveling in exactly the right direction at the moment it hits the cue ball and with just the right amount of force (all of which is just about impossible), it wouldn't do anything anyway that you can't accomplish with a straight stroke. In other words, all you're accomplishing with that technique is a loss of accuracy.

(I know I'm repeating what others have said, but it might help to hear it different ways.)

pj
chgo

 

[Scott Lee]

Matt Stockman...It's very difficult to observe what others do, via video, especially you-tube. It might help you a lot, to get a professional video analysis of your stroke done. At least then you'd know exactly what you're doing (good and bad), and how to fix it.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I've been videotaping my practice lately in an effort to really nail down all the fundamentals of a straight and repeatable action. While observing my tapes Ive noticed that I tend to steer the cue a little when Im trying to really load up on English - especially inside english. Its particularly evident when Im shooting into the corners and coming off the short rail for position back up table.

Ive been told by some players that english is created through the cueball and that you should try to cue up as close to the center as possible each time, however, in my youtube observations, I've noticed the top pros still stroke nice and straight no matter what they are doing with the cue ball, while some of these experts I talk to will take some funny looking strokes to get the english they want.

I realize this is a pretty subjective "feel" oriented question, but what is the most dependable and accurate way to generate the english you want? should it be done through the cue ball? or should be done by tip placement and aiming?

 

[sfleinen]

Back hand swooping to "get" maximum spin/english

Maybe "through the cue ball" was a bad description. Ive just noticed some players cue up in the center of the ball with their practice strokes then alter the path of their stroke through the ball. Danny Basovich appears to do this from what I've seen of him on youtube.

Matt:

Some refer to this as "back hand swoop" (best described and illustrated "in the flesh" on Dr. Dave's website):

NV 2.6 - Steering follow through
NV B.33 - Back-hand swoop and twist ball-turn techniques
NV B.34 - Using back-hand swoop to get maximum English

There are several notable pros who do this (some on occasion, others do it all the time):

Mike Sigel (usually during the early stages of a game, and then he "calms down" and settles into a groove of proper stroke technique)
Ismael Paez (probably one of the most nervous/jittery players you'll ever see; watch his match with Mika Immonen here and you'll witness "Morro" swooping his cue seemingly upon contact with the cue ball)
Robb Saez (Robb not only "back hand swoops" to "get" english, but he also has classic CTE technique -- he practice strokes "seemingly" with maximum spin/english [you're thinking to yourself, "my gosh, he's going to miss that shot badly!"] but when he pulls the trigger, he swoops his back hand back in line and through the center of the cue ball.)

I guess this idea is sort of difficult to articulate. Its just that when Im faced with a stroke shot sometimes I think of the feel of the stroke through the cue ball. I look at it as a feel type thing, I guess from what I've gathered from these two posts, thats not going to get me anywhere:embarrassed2:

Dr. Dave's videos above pretty much dismiss the effect that any "swooping" of the back hand has any effect at all on the cue ball. Honestly, it's a bad habit, and will prevent accurate judgment/compensation for deflection (your brain has no time to "absorb" what caused you to miss -- whether you swooped too early/late, too little/too much, or your aiming point was just off). With a straight stroke, your brain only needs to be concerned with the "aiming point being off by 'x' amount" -- not any of the extraneous swooping movement.

Thanks for the feedback guys. I will work on developing english through cue tip position and aiming, Maybe then I can have a stroke I can find for more than 3 racks a night.

Well, if you "time" those 3 racks correctly and string 'em together, that's a good part of a short race for the cheese.

EDIT: P.S.: just noticed Scott Lee's post above. I would certainly defer to Scott, and definitely concur that video analysis is the very best "mirror" to see the inner workings of your stroke.

Hope this is helpful,
-Sean

 

[Matt Stockman]

Great response!

Matt:

Some refer to this as "back hand swoop" (best described and illustrated "in the flesh" on Dr. Dave's website):

NV 2.6 - Steering follow through
NV B.33 - Back-hand swoop and twist ball-turn techniques
NV B.34 - Using back-hand swoop to get maximum English

There are several notable pros who do this (some on occasion, others do it all the time):

Mike Sigel (usually during the early stages of a game, and then he "calms down" and settles into a groove of proper stroke technique)
Ismael Paez (probably one of the most nervous/jittery players you'll ever see; watch his match with Mika Immonen here and you'll witness "Morro" swooping his cue seemingly upon contact with the cue ball)
Robb Saez (Robb not only "back hand swoops" to "get" english, but he also has classic CTE technique -- he practice strokes "seemingly" with maximum spin/english [you're thinking to yourself, "my gosh, he's going to miss that shot badly!"] but when he pulls the trigger, he swoops his back hand back in line and through the center of the cue ball.)



Dr. Dave's videos above pretty much dismiss the effect that any "swooping" of the back hand has any effect at all on the cue ball. Honestly, it's a bad habit, and will prevent accurate judgment/compensation for deflection (your brain has no time to "absorb" what caused you to miss -- whether you swooped too early/late, too little/too much, or your aiming point was just off). With a straight stroke, your brain only needs to be concerned with the "aiming point being off by 'x' amount" -- not any of the extraneous swooping movement.



Well, if you "time" those 3 racks correctly and string 'em together, that's a good part of a short race for the cheese.

EDIT: P.S.: just noticed Scott Lee's post above. I would certainly defer to Scott, and definitely concur that video analysis is the very best "mirror" to see the inner workings of your stroke.

Hope this is helpful,
-Sean

Great post Sean...thankyou.

Those videos definitely explained to me what I was doing. I was swooping to compensate for the squirt on the inside english shots. Probably why I seem to miss those shots when the chips are down.

Looks like I'll need to pick up a case of "banquet beer":thumbup: after work today. I've got some practicing to do! And I cant do it unless I have a little stroke oil.

 

[Perk]

NV B.33 - Back-hand swoop and twist ball-turn techniques

Thanks for posting this one...I had a laugh since I first looked at it like 'no way'...

 

[dr_dave]

Even if you could somehow "swipe" your tip sideways across the surface of the cue ball while consistently hitting exactly the right spot on the cue ball and with your tip traveling in exactly the right direction at the moment it hits the cue ball and with just the right amount of force (all of which is just about impossible), it wouldn't do anything anyway that you can't accomplish with a straight stroke. In other words, all you're accomplishing with that technique is a loss of accuracy.

(I know I'm repeating what others have said, but it might help to hear it different ways.)

... but what about the "back-hand swoop and cue twist" technique required to curve an OB? For examples, see:

NV B.33 - Back-hand swoop and twist ball-turn techniques​

Regards,
Dave

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson
Even if you could somehow "swipe" your tip sideways across the surface of the cue ball while consistently hitting exactly the right spot on the cue ball and with your tip traveling in exactly the right direction at the moment it hits the cue ball and with just the right amount of force (all of which is just about impossible), it wouldn't do anything anyway that you can't accomplish with a straight stroke. In other words, all you're accomplishing with that technique is a loss of accuracy.

(I know I'm repeating what others have said, but it might help to hear it different ways.)

Dave:
... but what about the "back-hand swoop and cue twist" technique required to curve an OB?

Well, except for that, of course.

pj
chgo