Made in the U.S.A.
- Thread starter Pool Player 101
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See, there we go again trying to give everyone a guilt trip. If you are a true "patriot" then you would never give someone a guilt trip for exercising their FREEDOM to purchase goods made anywhere in the world.
I buy my products based on what the best product is that I can get for the money I have to spend.
For example I might need a new couch. I have $700 to spend on a couch and the cheapest "made in America couch" is $1000. So I find another couch that is imported that serves my purposes for $500. I buy it and have $200 left over from my original budget. With that money I now take my family and friends to dinner and give $200 to the local restaurant.
Everyone who gets on this buy American if You Are a Patriot trip forgets that transactions are not just a two-way street. You are basically asking me to subsidize someone else's high wages out of my own when you tell me to "buy American" if there is a lower priced alternative. Would you do that? If you had two plumbers bidding on fixing your sink and one plumber was 50% higher and had his shop five minutes away from you and the other one lived in a town 30 minutes away - but otherwise their work and service was equal would you use the plumber who lives in your town just to support your local economy? Tell me honestly that you would gladly pay a premium for all your goods and services just to buy local IF there were cheaper but equally good alternatives?
And IF you in fact do that then you would quickly find that you need to earn more money which will cause you to raise your prices or ask for a raise.
On the other hand what do you do if you select the cheaper price? You spend the money you saved on something else that you need or want - like for instance another machine or person to increase your production of Cue-Z's.
This is how the economy works in the real world. In the fantasy world we produce everything in a walled country and export to our heart's content and import nothing. In the fantasy world we never need anything from any other part of the world yet we expect them to consume all that care to send them and never buy anything they make.
To bring this back to pool - if someone gets into pool and they are able to outfit themselves for a couple hundred then they are likely to spend the money they saved on playing more pool and eventually they will graduate to a better and more expensive cue.
Hands up now, how many of you on this board bought a CHEAP cue when you got started with NO THOUGHT as to where it was made. Price was your main consideration. And then how many cues have you gone through since then searching for the perfect one? Would you have paid $500 for a cue back then when you were starting out?
I started on a $4 Budweiser cue from the flea market. Then I graduated to another "import" cue - a $40 Dufferin from Canada. All the while I dreamed of saving enough money for the lowest priced McDermott D-1 with black and white Irish Linen that I saw at Billiards and Barstools in OKC. I did eventually buy that cue for $125. But if that had been my ONLY choice when I was 12 and getting into pool then I would have passed on pool and done something cheaper instead.
Since then I have spent $1400 on a Schon, $1400 on a SouthWest, $1200 on a Cognescienti, and those are personal cues I spent my own cash on. Not to mention the dozens of cues I acquired through trades for my cases.
And it all started with a $4 Chinese cue.
No guilt trip...
Never told anyone here their "bad" if they don't buy American. I suggest it and move on. I know it's a personal choice. That's what Freedom is all about.
Just like I respect what you have to say. I would never come back at you and say your trying to guilt me into changing my philosophy. I buy from who I want and you have the right to buy from who you want. It's called, "To each his own". Plain and simply.
No arguments here...When it comes right down to it, everyone does what they want to. No big secret there.
I doubt that any of the "guilt trip patriots" will read the "Economics in One Lesson" essay that I linked to earlier but if they choose to read any part of it then I would like them to read this part and refute it if they can;
Who's “Protected” by Tariffs?
And this part;
The Drive for Exports
Who's “Protected” by Tariffs?
And this part;
The Drive for Exports
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Nicely Put.
You don't come out and say it but you imply it with your "I am a true patriot" remark. This implies that people who don't do it your way aren't "true patriots".
Anyway, I guess you are just going to throw out the subtle guilt-trip without even answering the questions or being open minded to learning the facts which refute your philosophy.
Kudos for practicing what you preach. Perhaps someday you might consider that what you preach might be in error. I do that everyday and try to continually educate myself through reading all I can to be sure of my foundation. Thank Tim Berners-Lee for the World Wide Web, made in Switzerland on the backbone of the internet, a US Military funded thing that was invented and brought to life by student and professional researchers from all over the world.
Thus you can guilt-trip me from 3000 miles away on your Chinese built computer, with your message routed through Chinese made devices, through an ISP with a 1000 workers who maintain the servers required to handle all the traffic. Of course these computers and servers wouldn't exist if brilliant minds in America and the rest of the world were engaged in backbreaking manual labor instead of having the luxury of engaging in more creative work. Because that is the net result of protectionism and guilt-trip type Buy American/German/Chinese/(Insert country-place here) type of thinking. That we should FORCE people to work in backbreaking non-productive jobs instead of allowing those jobs to migrate to who will do them for less so that we can be free to engage in other higher level pursuits.
Is all this a little too much? It ought to be because facing reality is much harder than picking up on false and emotional hot-button slogans which are not based in facts.
I find it truly funny that a person would consider themselves a American Patriot and as such someone who believes in FREEDOM and then in the same breath admonish others for practicing FREE TRADE.
You just want to argue. No Thanks.
I got better things to do with my time.
You need to find someone else to argue with....I'M DONE...This is SILLY!!!
Is it silly? I have better things to do with my time as well but I refuse to allow people on this board to distort the facts with emotional guilt trips.
The fact is that you are done because you cannot refute the facts presented. When your "personal philosophy" is challenged then you can't defend it adequately.
I don't find it silly to imply that those who don't make every attempt to "buy American" are not patriotic.
Those who espouse such a sentiment are out of touch with the reality of the situation.
The plain cold hard and TRUE fact is that if you want to export your goods to other lands then you need to import an equal amount. Or to put it another way, to insure a peaceful and prosperous co-existence with the rest of the world - starting with the next town over, we have to trade with the rest of the world FREELY.
And dispense with the emotional and untrue dogma.
Cues: Viking, Schmelke, Meucci, Schon, and Pechauer are all production and semi-custom cues made in the USA. Jacoby also is a custom-production shop.
All of the custom cases are not made in the USA. - Almost all of the cases we make are custom - www.jbcases.com
But cases made in the USA that are production are Guiseppe and Porper as previously mentioned.
You can find out where anything you are interested in is made by simply asking. Send an email and ask and the seller will tell you. If they won't then don't buy from them. What is a little more complicated is figuring out HOW American something is. For example a lot of "Made in USA" goods depend on foreign made parts and partial assembly in foreign lands. It's not uncommon for goods to arrive in the USA nearly finished with the last step done on US soil so they can slap a "Made in USA" label on it and appeal to your sense of "duty".
Also you don't know if the "made in USA" brand employs only legal employees or if they employ illegal immigrants and pay them less than the minimum wage and collect no taxes or anything else about how they treat their employees. I mean if you are going to buy based on a little label then go all the way and make your decision based on true research into which companies are truly good "citizens". I think that you would be quite surprised to know the truth behind the "Made in USA" label in a lot of cases.
So for me I stay away from the "made in USA" label and have diminished respect for any manufacturer who relies on pushing that button to sell their products. Personally I judge each product on it's own merit and how the company standing behind it treats me. To me it's much more important to spend my money on the best product I can get regardless of where it happens to be made. For me "made by" is much much more important than "made in".
Thats the only way to deal with that guy man. He truly hates America and wants us to fail. I would rather have an Iranian rebel in my foxhole with me than him. Some people cant get it through their thick skulls that a 6 to 1 import to export ratio is not trade, its rape! Of course he will reply with some overly long "look at how smart I am" post trying to confuse you and lure you into an argument he cannot win, but all you gotta do is ignore him, lol. I havent read any of his posts in a while, I just scroll on down. I dont know about the rest of you guys, but I had family that died and got wounded fighting communism, what government does China have? hmmmmmm.....
BTW Schon is also made in the USA.
Joe
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On the one hand, JB made very valid points. On the other hand, you say you never read his posts, yet discredit him with personal attacks instead.
Even if you don't agree with his points, they're clear, easy to understand, and you could give a clear reason for disagreeing with them. But you don't even try, so in my view you are the one who has already lost the argument.
Just for fun why don't you link to the last thread that you started on this topic. You were completely shot down by me and many others.
Just because you want to live with your head in the sand doesn't mean the rest of us have to. I love America more than you do for sure because I don't want to see it isolated and hated around the world. People like you think that you can wrap yourself in the Flag and build a wall around the USA and all will be well.
Once again Mr. SuperPatriot if the "communist" government is such a threat to America how do you propose that it be eliminated and turned into a friendly democracy? (side note, the government in China is ruled by the Communist party, but the economy is very capitalist)
Should we do it by force? March in and replace the government of China with our own? That seems to going SO WELL in places far smaller than China.
Would it work if we cut off all trade with China? Placed them under an embargo? Surely the Chinese government would cave in and make the country democratic if we did that, right?
Why was your family fighting communism? What was the goal of that fight? If it was to stop communism then isn't it better to stop it through peaceful means rather than war?
I mean if we didn't trade with China and they weren't dependent on being able to sell to us then what would they do? They would employ their people turning raw materials into weapons instead of silverware sets and computers. China already has nuclear weapons. Maybe you would prefer that 300 million people were engaged in building more of them and other weapons instead of building teddy bears.
So you love America? You love what America stands for? You agree that every person is born with inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Do you think that every person on this Earth is born with those rights or not? Or does this just apply to Americans?
"God Bless the USA and no one else" (from some fictional presidential debate) - is this how you feel?
So if you agree that loving America means that we want the rest of the world to be as FREE and PROSPEROUS as we are then what's wrong with peacefully trading with the rest of the world and allowing them to help themselves by granting access to our education and innovations. In fact many of those innovations have come about BECAUSE of the ABILITY of foreign students to be able to afford to study in the USA and THEIR research and inventions end up creating wealth and companies IN THE USA. Should we build a wall and keep all those brilliant people out of the USA? Well, in fact we are already doing that to our detriment as it's much harder for students, professors, and professionals to be granted visas and work permits to work in the USA and so other nations are now HEAVILY recruiting the best minds to come to their nations instead of America.
A 6:1 ratio huh? What is your source for this claim? So you might mean that we are importing 6 cues into the USA for each one that we export. Whether this is true or not you FAIL to account for the fact that each cue going out of America carries a MUCH HIGHER price tag than those coming in. So for a $100 American made cue the Chinese are sending 6 $15 cues into the USA. Just last week someone here in Xiamen China bought TWO Cognescientis for over $3000. And the Chinese market is heating up RAPIDLY for demand for American high end cue brands.
I'd like to ask you if you honestly think that the American cue makers would trade the cue sales that they made to Japan during the 90s if it meant no imports. In other words they would have no low end imports but they would have to give up their foreign sales completely? I think that there are very few cue makers who would be willing to make that trade.
The fact is that when we buy goods we pay with dollars and the only reason that suppliers or banks accept those dollars is because they know that they will be able to use them to purchase American goods at some point. TO put it in simple terms the shoe factory in China sells one million dollar's worth of shoes to America and the next week he turns around and buys a million dollar machine from the USA.
If you truly LOVED your country then you would read the works of it's GREATEST patriots and understand that they were ALL AGAINST protectionism. Try reading something from Ben Franklin for example.
If you really loved America then you would educate yourself and understand that the only way to have PEACE is to allow the rest of the world to develop and prosper and have the things we want.
From the other thread that we had this debate on someone said said that America is fighting a war on communism by spreading the virtues of capitalism and guess what we are winning!
Anyway, I have provided very good reading material for you. You most likely won't take advantage of it but it's there should you someday develop an open mind.
You do understand that buying purple heart is Un-American don't you? We grow perfectly good woods in the USA that are suitable for pool cues.
http://www.exotic-wood.com/purpleheart.htm
For more entertaining (or boring) reading - this is the thread Snipershot started on this subject - http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=136368
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Who'd want a dieckman cue he? won't even make me a cue with an ivory joint!
that's just a joke i'm sure he makes a good cue
Oh boy, another one!
I've followed this and similar threads in the past and I respect everyone's opinion. John Barton's arguments are always very knowledgeable and well presented. He's a smart guy and will obviously spend a lot of time debating every single little point until he prevails or wears down his opponent on any issue. Remember the very protracted casemakers wars ?
I think it's pertinent to remember that it's totally self-serving to take the global stance when you are the owner of a factory in China undercutting American case makers. Of course you would advocate consumers buying from overseas where they can find less expensive goods that don't employ Americans (except one) and where the profits all go back to China I suppose. I for one am the guy who will ALWAYS attempt to buy an American product first, regardless of the cost if I possibly can. I support the mom and pop businesses near me rather than Wally World as well. If I can't find something I need elsewhere I will buy foreign made, but with regret. I don't call anyone who buys foreign unpatriotic but I might think it.
John, I have been tempted in the past to order one of your cases. They offer a tremendous value compared to similar cases made in the USA. After much reflection I have chosen to order Justis, Murnak, and most recently Swift. I have never regretted those decisions yet. If I'm ever tempted again all I have to do to resist that temptation is to read a self-serving thread like this and it firms up my resolve to continue to buy American. Some of what you say makes sense, it just doesn't make sense to me and it conflicts with my values. Old fashioned American values. You'll probably refute my little treatise step by step but I am a zero-shift kinda American. Sorta the USA way or die kinda guy. Simplistic I guess, and stubborn, like my Dad and his Dad. I guess you've found wealth and happiness in China and I wish you well, but I'll not be buying any Fury Cues or JB Cases etc. while they are made over there...Tom
I think it's pertinent to remember that it's totally self-serving to take the global stance when you are the owner of a factory in China undercutting American case makers. Of course you would advocate consumers buying from overseas where they can find less expensive goods that don't employ Americans (except one) and where the profits all go back to China I suppose. I for one am the guy who will ALWAYS attempt to buy an American product first, regardless of the cost if I possibly can. I support the mom and pop businesses near me rather than Wally World as well. If I can't find something I need elsewhere I will buy foreign made, but with regret. I don't call anyone who buys foreign unpatriotic but I might think it.
John, I have been tempted in the past to order one of your cases. They offer a tremendous value compared to similar cases made in the USA. After much reflection I have chosen to order Justis, Murnak, and most recently Swift. I have never regretted those decisions yet. If I'm ever tempted again all I have to do to resist that temptation is to read a self-serving thread like this and it firms up my resolve to continue to buy American. Some of what you say makes sense, it just doesn't make sense to me and it conflicts with my values. Old fashioned American values. You'll probably refute my little treatise step by step but I am a zero-shift kinda American. Sorta the USA way or die kinda guy. Simplistic I guess, and stubborn, like my Dad and his Dad. I guess you've found wealth and happiness in China and I wish you well, but I'll not be buying any Fury Cues or JB Cases etc. while they are made over there...Tom
That's perfectly ok Tom. The fact that you have been tempted to buy one of my cases because it represents a good value is exactly WHY there should be CHOICE and the FREEDOM to exercise that choice.
Of course my argument here is self-serving, I make goods in China so why would I let people use this forum to preach a protectionist platform and use falsehoods to do it?
All I ask is that you refute ANYTHING I have said with some facts. Never does anyone go and do that. I post my sources, post links to essays written by people much smarter than me who have studied this topic in-depth and at the end of it all you and others can do is call me self-serving and unpatriotic. And then you play the "I will never buy from you card" as if that should make me pause and shut up about the subject.
In fact you should APPLAUD a person who exercises his right to free speech even if it may cause him to lose some business. But in fact you don't believe in freedom of speech or freedom of choice or free trade or unrestricted competition or you wouldn't try to punish me with your threat of withholding your dollars. I presume that you mean that you have been tempted to buy from me and MIGHT HAVE if I would just behave as you want me to. Well, Tom, I won't pander to you or anyone else just to get your business. You are free to make your choice without any false advertising on my part. If not liking me personally causes you to not purchase then that's your choice and I won't be changing my stance in order to get your money. For each one of you that take this stance someone else decides to purchase from me because they do like what I have to say. I sell a lot of cases to people in other countries who happen to feel the way I do regarding some of the protectionist rhetoric that is put forth by some people in the USA.
As for "wearing people down" it's quite simple, if you make a point then try to make sure it's based in fact and incontrovertible. Cite your source. Most of the time the "wearing down" is because the other side makes a statement and then can't back it up. This is my livelihood, so when someone makes false statements that affect my income then you can be sure I am going to rebut those statements whenever possible. If I don't and no one else does then those statements stand uncontested and will be taken as fact by a lot of readers just because no one challenged them.
At least when I challenge them then the readers have two sides to choose from and can make up their minds based on that choice. They can follow my links, check my statements, research the topic on their own and come to their own conclusions.
Of course I am going to address your comments, you are talking to me aren't you or are you just preaching at me?
I understand your attitude, a lot of people in the USA have it. Most of the time in my experience those folks haven't spent much time abroad and don't know much about other countries or their culture and history. In fact they don't even know much about our own history. For example the tidbit that the America's were colonized in part by the Europeans to EXPLOIT the natural resources and take by force the land that rightfully belonged to the natives. And Europe used the CHEAPER labor in the USA to import goods back to Europe. America has ALWAYS been a country that has freely traded with other countries - with the exception of tariff wars enacted by politicians who were controlled by big industry. Inevitably those tariff wars have always caused more job loss and loss of productivity than they created.
We put a tax on jackets from Spain so they put a tax on whatever the biggest import from the USA is - net effect - short term gain for manufacturers of said item in each country - loss for exporters of the item in each country - and loss of income through artificially higher prices for all consumer of both items.
Feel worn out yet? You should because it's really much harder to take the educated path instead of the popular one. It's really easy to get on the "buy American" train and say boycott imports. But let me tell you the God's honest TRUTH. If the rest of the world suddenly adopted your attitude and decided that they were only going to buy goods produced in their land then the world and especially the American economy would completely collapse overnight. You ain't seen nothing yet until you see how life would be with rampant inflation and little consumer choice.
Lastly, Justis has licensed his name for cases to be produced in China. He also uses Chinese made interiors. So I think that in order to do your part you should really do your research, just as I told the thread starter. If you are going to put all your faith in a "made in America" label then you should make sure it's 100% made in America.
By the way, Dennis Swift is probably grateful for the business because he can take your money and buy himself the new 50" flat screen that was made in China to watch good ole' American baseball and have some apple pie, which happens to have been made with a crust mix produced in America by company that is owned by a Dutch conglomerate. And because it's not apple season in Tennesee the apples were imported from Brazil. And because the 50" flat screen was Made in China it's cheaper so Dennis doesn't need to charge you as much to be able to afford it.
Confusing isn't it. Thinking about the deeper connections usually is.