Butt Warping

K

kiinstructor

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have a problem with a couple of my cues. It seems that the only place that they seem to move is at the joint where the forearm and the butt are connected together. I have put the tendon on the butt side and the forearm side for balance purposes and made sure the faces are machined square prior to glueing. The butts seem to go together straight and seem straight after a few passes to get to the proper taper. But what seems to happen with a few cues is they move at that joint. I had a southwest and a Bill stroud cues both 95s that moved there also. What seems to be the problem with moving on that part of the butt. Is it the pressure from the glue? About 95 percent of my butts stay perfectly straight but a few have that problem. Maybe you guys can shed some light on this. I have enough tomato stakes for the moment. Thanks in advance.

Happiness
Mark
 
Hi Mark,
The joint that you're referring to is commonly known as the 'A' joint.

I can understand why people aren't lining up to jump in and help on this one because problems at the 'A' jnt. can be quite complex, or they can be as simple as falling off a log.
They become even more complex now that you've added Joss West & SouthWest to the equation.

If 95% of your cues are without this problem, I'd say that's not bad. Not every cue built is going to stay straight. The trick is to catch it before it goes out the door.
Your avatar doesn't give your location so where would that be?
The reason I ask is to get a sense of the humidity and other weather conditions that could have an influence on this matter. It would also go a long way in explaining why after 20 yrs. of being straight, the JW & SW suddenly decided to take a hike. BTW, by changing their environment, they may come back to 'straight' all on their own.

In my initial reading of your post, one of my first thoughts was how you are assembling the 'A' joint. I don't mean tenon length, diameter and such, what I'm getting at is, are you 'reefing' the two parts together or are you just bringing them to snug? One might think that the tighter you can make that connection the better. OK up to a point. Over tightening can create internal stress that may not be immediately evident. Now as you peel away the outer layers of the cue in the turning/tapering process, those internal stresses have less & less outer mtrl. to keep them in check. The internal stress will ultimately win.

I think I've opened the door enough to get the ball rolling. Let's see what other opinions come this way.
 
KJ Cues said:
Hi Mark,
The joint that you're referring to is commonly known as the 'A' joint.

I can understand why people aren't lining up to jump in and help on this one because problems at the 'A' jnt. can be quite complex, or they can be as simple as falling off a log.
They become even more complex now that you've added Joss West & SouthWest to the equation.

If 95% of your cues are without this problem, I'd say that's not bad. Not every cue built is going to stay straight. The trick is to catch it before it goes out the door.
Your avatar doesn't give your location so where would that be?
The reason I ask is to get a sense of the humidity and other weather conditions that could have an influence on this matter. It would also go a long way in explaining why after 20 yrs. of being straight, the JW & SW suddenly decided to take a hike. BTW, by changing their environment, they may come back to 'straight' all on their own.

In my initial reading of your post, one of my first thoughts was how you are assembling the 'A' joint. I don't mean tenon length, diameter and such, what I'm getting at is, are you 'reefing' the two parts together or are you just bringing them to snug? One might think that the tighter you can make that connection the better. OK up to a point. Over tightening can create internal stress that may not be immediately evident. Now as you peel away the outer layers of the cue in the turning/tapering process, those internal stresses have less & less outer mtrl. to keep them in check. The internal stress will ultimately win.

I think I've opened the door enough to get the ball rolling. Let's see what other opinions come this way.
Click to expand...


In my initial reading of your post, one of my first thoughts was how you are assembling the 'A' joint. I don't mean tenon length, diameter and such, what I'm getting at is, are you 'reefing' the two parts together or are you just bringing them to snug? One might think that the tighter you can make that connection the better. OK up to a point. Over tightening can create internal stress that may not be immediately evident. Now as you peel away the outer layers of the cue in the turning/tapering process, those internal stresses have less & less outer mtrl. to keep them in check. The internal stress will ultimately win.


This is a great comment, and nothing could be more true. Being a self taught cue maker myself I learned this the hard way, and like the OP of this thread said, I made many Tomato Stakes before I learned this simple fact. The above is great advise to anyone who wants too make or is currently making cues and having similar problems!!

Great Post
 
The main cause of cue warping at the A-Joint is the screw. Care should be take to install that screw as straight and true as a join screw is. If that screw is in crooked and you joint the handle to the forearm with fairly snug tenons, although the cue seats down straight that screw is pressing one side with a lot of pressure and will cause the cue to warp. I have started gluing my A-Joint screw into the handle first. I make sure it is true and the glue is dry before attaching the forearm. Another reason besides warping that I do this is that it pretty much eliminates any buzzes that might develop in a cue.
I found installing the screw, attaching the forearm and handle together all at the same time produced buzzes sometimes. Also gluing end facing woods together causes buzzes sometimes. If you don't want to put a ring at the A-Joint pretreat the end faces with West System, let that dry then reface and assemble.
 
Thanks guys for all your help. This is a problem that Ive found in alot of cues that I have done repairs for. I agree with Chris as to putting in the screw first and letting it dry to ensure that it is straight . What I have been doing is test fitting the butt and forearm connection pre gluing for any bend at that point. My problem is after the gluing and first and second turning. I think sometimes the epoxy takes longer that they say to dry. And the after effect is pressure and bend. Im debating making a relief hole in the handle area to resolve the glue expansion if I am wrapping the cue, it wont be visable. But I tend to make alot of wrapless cues so its a bit of problem. But I think I can make a small hole or series of small holes in the forearm for glue relief and put inlays there. I think I read this in Chris's book. Boy the simple things Ive learned from that book are invaluable. Its worth every penny. Anyway thanks again and I welcome any further suggestions.

Mark
 
kiinstructor said:
Thanks guys for all your help. This is a problem that Ive found in alot of cues that I have done repairs for. I agree with Chris as to putting in the screw first and letting it dry to ensure that it is straight . What I have been doing is test fitting the butt and forearm connection pre gluing for any bend at that point. My problem is after the gluing and first and second turning. I think sometimes the epoxy takes longer that they say to dry. And the after effect is pressure and bend. Im debating making a relief hole in the handle area to resolve the glue expansion if I am wrapping the cue, it wont be visable. But I tend to make alot of wrapless cues so its a bit of problem. But I think I can make a small hole or series of small holes in the forearm for glue relief and put inlays there. I think I read this in Chris's book. Boy the simple things Ive learned from that book are invaluable. Its worth every penny. Anyway thanks again and I welcome any further suggestions.

Mark
Click to expand...

Epoxy does not expand after it has dried. In fact it shrinks a little.
Are you sure it's " warping" ?
Not moving or losing the register?
 
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