Question about a legal shot...
- Thread starter bencho
- Start date
It may or may not be a legal shot but it is a foul.
OB on the rail should be announced by the opponent prior to the shot. Shooter must contact the OB and either the cue ball hit a rail or the OB hit another rail.
There are specific rules for OBs on the rail.
http://www.wpapool.com/index.asp?content=rules_tournament
There are specific rules for OBs on the rail.
http://www.wpapool.com/index.asp?content=rules_tournament
Yes it is a foul if the cue ball does not contact that rail after touching the object ball that was declared frozen to the rail.
A lil more info would have been nice. But basically, for a shot to be legal, after contacting the OB either the CB or another ball needs to hit a rail. If a ball is frozen to a rail it needs to either hit another rail or another ball and back to the same rail.
You can also hit the OB that is frozen to the rail like a thin hit and the CB can hit the same rail, but after contact, something has to hit a rail.
I would also like to add after looking at Franks post above mine. If your opponent does not declare the ball frozen, than it's not a foul if you just slow roll into it. It has to be declared frozen or it is played as if there was a gap between the OB and the rail. Hope this helps.
On every shot, some ball must be driven to a rail after the cue ball contacts an object ball. To understand this rule, you need to know the definition of "driven to a rail." Here it is, copied from the WPA website:
8.4 Driven to a Rail
A ball is said to be driven to a rail if it is not touching that rail and then touches that rail. A ball touching at the start of a shot (said to be “frozen” to the rail) is not considered driven to that rail unless it leaves the rail and returns. A ball that is pocketed or driven off the table is also considered to have been driven to a rail. A ball is assumed not to be frozen to any rail unless it is declared frozen by the referee, the shooter, or the opponent. See also Regulation 27, Calling Frozen Balls.
A ball is said to be driven to a rail if it is not touching that rail and then touches that rail. A ball touching at the start of a shot (said to be “frozen” to the rail) is not considered driven to that rail unless it leaves the rail and returns. A ball that is pocketed or driven off the table is also considered to have been driven to a rail. A ball is assumed not to be frozen to any rail unless it is declared frozen by the referee, the shooter, or the opponent. See also Regulation 27, Calling Frozen Balls.
If you understand this definition, then you will probably be able to come up with a scenario in which the only rail contact is by the frozen object ball to the rail it is frozen to prior to the shot and yet the shot is legal.
NOT a foul
The Referee Quiz
http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-61.htm
addresses this exact shot. It is declared a foul.
However, on any table with a cloth with some wear, where "gutters" have developed, it may very well not be a foul. The object ball often leaves the rail and then returns.
How is the referee to rule if he has not been requested in advance to watch the shot very closely?
EW
The Referee Quiz
http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-61.htm
addresses this exact shot. It is declared a foul.
However, on any table with a cloth with some wear, where "gutters" have developed, it may very well not be a foul. The object ball often leaves the rail and then returns.
How is the referee to rule if he has not been requested in advance to watch the shot very closely?
EW
According to high-speed videos, if an object ball is frozen on the cushion, and the cue ball is straight out from the object ball, and the cue ball is shot straight at the object ball, the object ball does not leave the cushion and return. (On the other hand, if the object ball is a ball off the cushion, and you shoot straight at it, you can get it to contact the cushion twice.)
I'm not sure which particular shot Ed was referring to. Do you remember the number of the shot, Ed?
As for bouncing along the rail gutter with no other cushion contact, that's a problem. The shot is rare. At least some rules of carom billiards do not give credit for "gutter-induced cushion contacts" -- the cue ball has to return to the cushion due to its spin.
As has been pointed out below, the OB doesn't have to hit another rail; it can return to the same rail. I seem to recall that hitting another rail was a requirement in some ruleset, but I don't remember in which ruleset or if it's still that way.
pj
chgo
I may be wrong, but if an OB is frozen to a rail, you can hit it full on with a little bit of draw, cause it to bounce off the rail and kiss the CB sending back to the same rail and it's a good hit. I have always been of the understanding that if it's frozen to a rail, as long as you cause it to leave the rail, it can go back and make contact with the same rail and be a good hit. I've heard that there are other organizations that require the ball to make contact with a different rail, but for the most part, the larger governing bodies don't require the ball to be sent to a different rail.
Somebody clear this up for me?
dave
Somebody clear this up for me?
dave
What you're thinking about may be a rule for straight pool that allows just a certrain amount of safes on the same rail. After that, one of the two balls must hit a different rail. I think it's a little known rule or maybe just used by certain tournaments. Any straight pool players know for sure?
As I tried to point out above, this has been looked for with high-speed video and it is not seen. Physics also says it is unlikely to happen.
When you hit a ball full into the cushion, the object ball goes into the cushion to a depth of up to half an inch depending on the speed of the hit. The cue ball does not stop completely but keeps moving forward very slightly due to being less than perfectly elastic. This means that as the object ball tries to leave the cushion, it will encounter the cue ball before it has separated from the rail, and there can be no second rail contact.
If the cue ball has good draw and the conditions are right, I suppose the cue ball could actually draw back some before the object ball leaves the cushion. The problem then is that the cue ball would be moving away from the cushion and the object ball wouldn't even stop dead -- it would continue to move away from the cushion with whatever speed the cue ball had at the instant of the second contact.
So, both from experiment and theory, the object ball on a full double kiss hits the cushion only once. While a player might argue that the object ball leaves and returns, that's completely at odds with what we know about the situation, and it's reasonable for the referee to say, "I did not see a return to the cushion."
I'm familiar with that rule. I'm definitely talking about requiring a frozen OB to hit another rail - we used to debate whether hitting the other face of a pocket counted as hitting another rail.
pj
chgo
Yes. In the WPA (and BCA) rules until the 2008 revision, if you had an object ball frozen to one point of the side pocket and you shot it more or less straight into the point and it rattled back and forth in the side pocket jaws several times and came to a rest in the jaws without dropping, it would be "no rail" (assuming the cue ball had not hit some cushion after the contact).
Similarly under the old rules, if you had a ball frozen on the side cushion and you shot it too softly along the rail past the side pocket and it froze to the side cushion short of the corner pocket it was going towards, you would not get credit for having made a rail contact with that object ball, even though it had very clearly left contact with the cushion (as it passed the side pocket) and then made contact again with the cushion.
At 14.1 there is no longer a rule that says you can only play a few safes on a ball close to the cushion. If the players get themselves into such a stalemate position, they now lag for a new break.
The whole point of the frozen ball rule is to prevent an infinite series of little tippy-tap safeties on the same ball, when no one wants to try a longer safe or a bank. It seems to me that the stalemate rule could be used for a frozen ball, and you don't have to worry about whether a ball is frozen or not. One say to say that is: "Any ball close to the cushion is considered not quite frozen." What would it hurt? The next chance for a revision of this rule is 2013.
I agree. I also do not think there was ever a need for a ball frozen to a rail rule. Pretty much all contengencies are covered with other rules like double hits, balls must contact other balls or balls must contact a rail, etc.
It's a nitpicky rule that nobody seems to understand when it becomes an issue and causes more arguements and fist fights than any other rule I can think of.