The Chinese are coming ...

[JoeyInCali]

Well, we only have our greedy corporate selves to blame. We've gone into China and introduced and influenced the manufacturer process, we've outsource so much to them and given them the "ideas" and "specs" and now they've just taken that and turned into their favor.

We've outsourced the work to them and now they are a huge competitor, and so the grasshopper has now become the master.

With the modernization of China, and using all the quality standards ISO's and Six Sigmas, etc, they are blowing up.

Here is a country that has good work ethics, poor economic situation, and thus they strive for work or do work for less. Even at less money, the conversion from USD still gives them a great living, a better, a best standard of living they've ever experienced. Their machines, lathes, Mills, and production process have gotten pretty darn good quality at minimum price isn't going to stop here.


Why this country and others strive is because they have a bit of nationalism and take pride in their work and who they are.

America sadly, has a price. American greed of 1 person deteriorated the country. The Chinese government gives them the encentives to move out of farming and go into Beijing and start business! The US government monopolizes and takes out all the small businesses and pays large corporations raises for failing.

They are here and staying.

tap tap tap.
And why we let their ships come here to haul away logs is just beyond me.

 

[lenoxmjs]

Definately an interesting thread.

A few of my observations /thoughts

Most of the players that play pool locally have no idea what a custom pool cue is . Many consider Meucci to be as good as it gets. Others have McDermott or Viking .

These people are not your customers they don't even know you exist.

They have no idea who Szamboti, Hercek, Mottey, JMW, Zylr, Stroud, or who Ernie G. is. Never mind any of the smaller lesser known greats like JOEY or ERIC.

Most play for fun or as a night out for a few beers. Very few are serious players.

A quick story to prove my point......

I was making small talk with a player from another team one night and his cue had an interesting veneer combo and some different inlays. I asked him if I could pick it up and take a closer look. He carefully handed me the cue and advised me to be very careful with it as it was expensive. I looked it over and thanked him.( It was about a $400 Meucci ) He then asked to see my cue . I was playing with a 8 point Richard Harris that I promptly handed over. His advice to me was that if I work really hard and save my pennies I could have a cue like his someday too. I didn't have the heart to tell him I wouldn't trade the Harris for 10 of his .

 

[Thunder Thighs]

His advice to me was that if I work really hard and save my pennies I could have a cue like his someday too.

:rotflmao1: :killingme:

 

[BlowFish]

We who understand should educate the uneducated when it comes to Custom Cue. We can't convert them all, but we will convert a few.

Case in point... I met a friend via a another pool friend. He loved his Meucci so much. He has been a Meucci fan since Efren Reyes used a Meucci. Finally, 2 months ago, he is shooting with a Custom Cue. A US Custom Cue that my friend(who introduce him to me) owns. I've bought this Custom Cue for him before. He loves this custom cue and it hits way better than his Meucci.

 

[John Barton]

1. If you believe in freedom then you believe in freedom of choice which includes the freedom to import and sell cues made somewhere besides America. You also believe in freedom for each person to spend their money as they see fit. You believe that any person on Earth has the right to start making cues. This includes any person in any town, city or state in any country.

2. If you believe in progress then you understand that where production happens it innovates or dies. This includes the USA and China. Where would most of you be in your cuemaking if you weren't able to share resources with each other? Yet you are upset when others do the same thing with overseas cue makers. I think most of you would agree that cue making overall is now much better than it was 20 years ago. Even Ernie Gutierez says that his cues are much much better than those he built in the 60s.

3. Why shouldn't there be a sub-$100 cue? If there can be such a thing as a $10,000 cue that is completely out of proportion to the cost of materials and often probably to the work that went into it why can't cues also be as inexpensive as they can be and still be decently made?

4. Why do you spend time labeling importers as greedy when in fact you are just as greedy for wanting to restrict them in your favor? Doesn't anyone see the irony in saying that there should be tariffs and protections put on imports to stop them from competing with domestically produced goods? Would you stand for it if your state suddenly put a major tax on food imported from other states in order to "protect" the agriculture production in your state? What would happen if the other states reacted similarly and put tariffs on food produced in your state? Or on wood from Michigan? You would not stand for it if any law were passed to restrict your ability to choose from any supplier of materials in the USA simply because of where they are based.

5. Instead of casting blame and inventing a situation that doesn't exist spend your time educating people about what makes a good cue and sell that aspect. Of course people don't know that a cue is made in China because honestly that doesn't even really factor into most people's buying decision. I stood up in the ACA meeting in 1997 and said that the ACA should spend some of their money to produce a poster that explains what their collective membership has adopted as the guidelines to determine what a good cue is and should couple that with an "ACA Approved" sticker to put on all ACA member cues. Put that attractive poster up in every pool room and retail store in America and that would have gone a LONG way to helping the American consumer get an education on what a good cue is.

Then of course some of the importers would have used the criteria to advertise their cues - BUT the determining factor for a lot of people would have been is it ACA approved and if not then WHY NOT? But this sort of effort is something the ACA didn't do and so they allowed the importers to use the right language to advertise their cues, "hard-rock maple", "pro-taper", "exotic hardwoods", etc.... and then you know what? The cue manufacturers have now caught up with the marketing and the cues are actually pretty good.

6. Quality - today's cues from the top two cue manufacturers in China are as good or better than the production cues from the USA makers and better than most of the cues from small makers. Are there a lot of cues that need repairs? Well yeah, there are a lot of cues - MILLIONS being made every year. Not all of those cues are made with the best wood and they don't have to be. It should be perfectly obvious that a $50 retail cue isn't going to be made with the same care and materials as a $500 one. Now some of you would like to cast aspersions and insinuate that the $500 import cue is made with the same amount of lower grade materials and inattention to detail. You would be wrong.

The truth is that the big factories in China operate on a much different plane in that they tailor their production to whatever the customer wants, think of a true custom cue maker on a grand scale with the ability to make any cue in any fashion that anyone wants to pay for. Want $1500 cues then the factory will assign a team of five people to make your cues with an incredible amount of attention to detail. Want $15 dollar cues then you aren't going to get the best people but you will get a solid process that produces decent cues.

6a. The process for the two top cue makers in China is almost as good as any shop in the USA large or small. The factory which produces Fury cues has $10,000,000 (ten million) in wood in a climate controlled warehouse. They have more than a million shafts in various stages of turning and grading - with all the ones that are tapered HANGING just like the big boys do it. Imagine a warehouse that is 50feet high with ten rows of racks that are all 30ft long and each has about six levels all stocked with hanging partial shafts.

6b. Particular construction techniques: Many of you claim to know just how the cues in China are constructed. You don't. You see small parts of some cues and extrapolate that onto all cues coming from China. The fact is that the top two factories here do core some cues, they use laminated handles on some cues, they thread all the parts on some cues, they use the best adhesives, they use high end parts, they use the same materials that USA based manufacturers use on some cues. I'd bet that the top two cue makers here are possibly Atlas Fiber's largest customers. Corey Harper can confirm that one of the top two cue makers in China is a fairly large customer of Tiger's tips.

On our suggestion the cue maker who makes Fury cues has purchased three Universal Lasers from ULS in Scottsdale Arizona. That's around $100,000 US dollars which went back into the US economy. Using these lasers they have created some incredible cues and techniques.

8. Which brings us all the way to economics 101. All the dollars that go to China come back into the USA at some point in the form or purchases or investment. They have to otherwise no bank would accept dollars. Try paying a bill with Chinese RMB. Banks have to have dollars on hand for companies to be able to purchase the equipment they need. Tourists spend dollars in the USA they don't buy Disneyland tickets and $30 made in China Mickey Mouse dolls using Renminbi. Chinese children attend US colleges with their education and expenses paid for with dollars shipped in from China. So contrary to sensational headlines and uneducated belief it's not a one way street. For the people who say that they won't repair import cues do you refuse to sell to people from overseas who want to buy your cues? If one of your cues that you sold to an overseas buyer needed a new tip would you expect the local cue maker there to refuse to work on it?

9. Which brings me all the way back to freedom. If you truly believe that the American way is the best way to live and you believe in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and you believe in the Declaration of Independence and you believe that all human beings are equal and that all deserve to be free then you also believe in their right to pursue the same lifestyle that we Americans enjoy. They are working their asses off to make a better now for themselves and a better future for their kids. So please try to remember that we are all people who have to live together on this globe.

If we continue to operate in ignorance with very little to attempt to understand the other side then eventually the ignorance will lead to real war and that will be more than tragic because the next world war will be near Armageddon. Thinking beyond your own needs for a moment wouldn't you rather have the Chinese making cues and toys instead of landmines and warheads?

10. The fact is that competition is healthy. It weeds out the weak and rewards the strong. Having competition is an opportunity to shine, an opportunity to grow. Repairing a cue is an opportunity to learn more about it and to educate your customer at the same time.

I make cases. I often make the claim that I know more about cue cases that anyone else in the world. Pretty bold statement. It comes from the fact that in my career I have dissected every possible case I could get my hands on. When I did shows I had a toolbox with me to repair our cases on the spot and I expanded it to repairing other cases for a fee. In this way I got other people to fund my education about cases. That gave me in turn a lot of ammunition to fight against the knockoffs of my cases. Knockoffs that were being sold right next door to me at the shows for half my prices.

So I had to justify my prices to the people looking at my cases. How did I do that? Beyond the things everyone could see and feel like the quality of the build and the protective features I could let them look under the hood so to speak by showing them my cases taken apart and also the cases of the knockoffs. Over the years I had many people who brought me a knockoff to repair and when I showed them how it was made inside they turned around and bought one of mine off the wall.

Please don't give in to the hype that competition is bad for you. It's only bad if you stand still because if you do then there is another guy coming up behind you to overtake you, be it the next player in the poolroom who wants to be a cue maker or the Chinese cue maker. Embrace it and use it and you can succeed in any market.

 

[John Barton]

One more story to lighten the mood.

At one BCA Event I was called for a match so I grabbed a Fury off the wall without any regard to which one it was and went and played the match.

On the way back Dan Dishaw and Jerry Olivier were having a discussion and Jerry waved me over and said, "John, let me see that cue". I gave it to him and Jerry and Dan looked it over and Jerry said, "John, what's this cue run?", I said, "about $220". Jerry said, "See Dan, this is why we can't compete, look at this quality for $200."

At that moment he turned it around and all three of use saw that one of the ivory colored squares in the index joint ring was missing and without missing a beat I said, "that's why it's only $200".

What are the odds that of all the cues I could pick off the wall that one at the moment would have such a defect? I know some of you will say pretty high but in fact it's extremely rare and almost inexplicable. It was funny though with perfect timing.

 

[KJ Cues]

You can put as much spin on it as you want to but the fact remains that you are not doing anybody any favors by repairing their junk. It just helps to put reputable cuemakers out of business. This junk from China has
almost ruined the low end custom cue market by making the cue dealers wealthy at their client's expense because the cues fall apart very quickly. They warp and the wood shrinks, the ferrules fall off and they pay as much as they would for an American made cue.

I DID NOT say or imply that the problem would go away immediately, because I am not stupid. I do know when someone is shooting themselves in the foot because of all the blood.

I have been a successful full time cuemaker for almost 20 years and I have never repaired one single imported cue. I don't do tips, ferrules, wraps or any other work on junk cues. I tell them to send it back to
the place they purchased it.

Arnie,
No spin - just fact.
There is one thing that puzzles me though.
You state that you are a successful CM and I don't doubt that you are. You also state that you refuse to work on import cues, so be it, that's your choice. Why then are you promoting the idea that the ones who are making a living repairing cues, regardless of where they come from, should suddenly stop working on the imports and as a result, take food off their families table? To what end? How would that serve you or any other American CM for that matter?

Import cues aren't going away any more than are import cars. The fact is that the import cue fills a void in a market that no one else wanted. No American cue maker starts out thinking he's going to cover or even enter the low-end market making cues in the $200 or less price range. It can't be done, not in this country anyway. So why Pitch about an area of the market that you clearly don't want?

I've yet to see how I'm hurting or even affecting another CM. Do you have a line of $100/200 cues that isn't selling because I'm unbiasedly working on import cues? If you're out to change someone's mind, you might want to start with the buyer. He's the one that decides where he's going to spend his money and how much. You should consider a PR man to do that for you though.

 

[Arnot Wadsworth]

Arnie,
No spin - just fact.
There is one thing that puzzles me though.
You state that you are a successful CM and I don't doubt that you are. You also state that you refuse to work on import cues, so be it, that's your choice. Why then are you promoting the idea that the ones who are making a living repairing cues, regardless of where they come from, should suddenly stop working on the imports and as a result, take food off their families table? To what end? How would that serve you or any other American CM for that matter?
Import cues aren't going away any more than are import cars. The fact is that the import cue fills a void in a market that no one else wanted. No American cue maker starts out thinking he's going to cover or even enter the low-end market making cues in the $200 or less price range. It can't be done, not in this country anyway. So why Pitch about an area of the market that you clearly don't want?

I've yet to see how I'm hurting or even affecting another CM. Do you have a line of $100/200 cues that isn't selling because I'm unbiasedly working on import cues? If you're out to change someone's mind, you might want to start with the buyer. He's the one that decides where he's going to spend his money and how much. You should consider a PR man to do that for you though.

The point about my being a successful cuemaker was not to brag but to point out that one does not have to repair cues to make a living.

I am against importing cues and everything else except coffee and tea. I am against marketing a cue that is foreign made with the implication that it is made in USA. An example is that I have had quite a number of customers who refused to believe that Predator Cues were made in China. They called the U.S. Rep and were told the cues were made in USA. I looked around Seybert's web site and I didn't find any mention that the Predator cues were being made in China.

My Grandfather told me in 1956 that "Every time a person buys a foreign made car he puts an American out of work for a year". I can tell you that every time someone buys a foreign made cue he takes food out of an American cuemaker's mouth.

I don't have anything against you personally. I can like someone but not like everything they do. If you elect to work on Chinese cues then do what you want to do. That's what you have been doing and that's what you will continue to do.

I also think it is unfair that when an imported cue comes into the USA there are little if any import fees but when I ship overseas the import fees often are over 100%. If Seybert's $1400 Predator cues had to pay the same import fees that an Arnot cue's customer has to pay in China the $1400 Seybert's cue would be selling for over $2900.00 U.S. Dollars. How many of them would sell?

As to the line of $100 to $200 cues, you are correct that I don't make them any more. I did in the beginning and almost went broke. The more I made the more I lost. At least I tried to compete. What I am really talking about are the $400 to $1400 cues that are coming onto the market (http://www.seyberts.com/catalog/Ikon_Series_Predator_Cue-421-1.html). I know you work for Seybert's so please don't talk about $100 to $200 when we all know that imported cues are indeed taking food out of the American Cuemaker's mouth.

 

[WilleeCue]

This junk from China has
almost ruined the low end custom cue market by making the cue dealers wealthy at their client's expense because the cues fall apart very quickly. They warp and the wood shrinks, the ferrules fall off and they pay as much as they would for an American made cue.

The whole point of this thread was to point out that Chinese cues are no longer the junk they were.
We all know that labor accounts for a very large percentage of an American made cue's cost.
They have very cheap labor in China.
The craftsmen there are not dumb and can learn any skill we can.
Materials has been the main issue with their cues in the past.
That is what is changing!
They are using quality materials, learning the skills, and starting to send over some really nice cues for cheap!

I have a 6 point cue that is Chinese and I challenge anyone to identify it as such.
The points are real.
The veneer is real.
The inlays are real.
Made the same way American cues are made.
It cost $100 and is very high quality.

 

[John Barton]

The point about my being a successful cuemaker was not to brag but to point out that one does not have to repair cues to make a living.

I am against importing cues and everything else except coffee and tea. I am against marketing a cue that is foreign made with the implication that it is made in USA. An example is that I have had quite a number of customers who refused to believe that Predator Cues were made in China. They called the U.S. Rep and were told the cues were made in USA. I looked around Seybert's web site and I didn't find any mention that the Predator cues were being made in China.

My Grandfather told me in 1956 that "Every time a person buys a foreign made car he puts an American out of work for a year". I can tell you that every time someone buys a foreign made cue he takes food out of an American cuemaker's mouth.

I don't have anything against you personally. I can like someone but not like everything they do. If you elect to work on Chinese cues then do what you want to do. That's what you have been doing and that's what you will continue to do.

I also think it is unfair that when an imported cue comes into the USA there are little if any import fees but when I ship overseas the import fees often are over 100%. If Seybert's $1400 Predator cues had to pay the same import fees that an Arnot cue's customer has to pay in China the $1400 Seybert's cue would be selling for over $2900.00 U.S. Dollars. How many of them would sell?

As to the line of $100 to $200 cues, you are correct that I don't make them any more. I did in the beginning and almost went broke. The more I made the more I lost. At least I tried to compete. What I am really talking about are the $400 to $1400 cues that are coming onto the market (http://www.seyberts.com/catalog/Ikon_Series_Predator_Cue-421-1.html). I know you work for Seybert's so please don't talk about $100 to $200 when we all know that imported cues are indeed taking food out of the American Cuemaker's mouth.

Your grandfather was wrong and so are you. Please go and read about basic economics.

If you are so right then explain the fact that in the last 30 years no American cue factory has closed due to competition from imports. In fact I can't think of one American cue factory that has closed in my lifetime. The only one that comes to mind was a startup called Legacy cues which was made up of former Meucci employees and underfunded when they started.

Explain that fact that there are more small cue makers than ever before? Don't you run a cue making school? What do you think happens when the amount of people making cues in the USA goes from 100 to 500 in a decade? I'd say that the "hobby cue maker" who has a day job is probably just as responsible if not more so for taking business away from full time cue makers and mass producers.

How can you say that buying a foreign made cue takes food of the table of an American cue maker when there are more cue makers than ever.

And so what if it does? The money that a person saves by buying a low priced cue PUTS food on their table. Who are you to tell them to give food away?

 

[TellsItLikeItIs]

The whole point of this thread was to point out that Chinese cues are no longer the junk they were.
We all know that labor accounts for a very large percentage of an American made cue's cost.
They have very cheap labor in China.
The craftsmen there are not dumb and can learn any skill we can.
Materials has been the main issue with their cues in the past.
That is what is changing!
They are using quality materials, learning the skills, and starting to send over some really nice cues for cheap!

I have a 6 point cue that is Chinese and I challenge anyone to identify it as such.
The points are real.
The veneer is real.
The inlays are real.
Made the same way American cues are made.
It cost $100 and is very high quality.

Willee you got to be kidding!!!!! If you call that quality I have to wonder about the standards youve set.

The points are nowhere near being even.
Look at the white veneer on the short points. Nowhere close to being even..
The decor ring on the butt isnt lined up correctly
The diamond inlay looks like it was installed using a hammer and chisel.

I cant imagine what the inside of the cue looks like. Wait a minute. Yes I can.

High quality my patootie!!!! Maybe you should move your shop to an offshore country. Youd probably feel right at home.


EDIT TO ADD:
Willee do you see what Im talking about? Do you even understand why the misalignment condition at the white veneers? Do you also understand that cue is one of only hundreds or thousands that was made using that same machinery set up.

Most 1st or 2nd year cue makers would see that as soon as they did the first turn on the cue. Wouldnt a prudent person take some action to correct it before making another cue using the same set up?

Instead you have an offshore company making junk that some Americans are willing to accept. If they cant afford something better then I understand. But for an American cue maker to come in here trying to BS people into what a great cue this is is really disturbing. If willeecue.com has plans of marketing this stuff more power to you. If I were you I would sharpen up my pen making skills though.

 

[John Barton]

Willee you got to be kidding!!!!! If you call that quality I have to wonder about the standards youve set.

The points are nowhere near being even.
Look at the white veneer on the short points. Nowhere close to being even..
The decor ring on the butt isnt lined up correctly
The diamond inlay looks like it was installed using a hammer and chisel.

I cant imagine what the inside of the cue looks like. Wait a minute. Yes I can.

High quality my patootie!!!! Maybe you should move your shop to an offshore country. Youd probably feel right at home.

Yeah I wouldn't have used that cue as my example. But I do have some that would fool most knowledgeable cue people as to where it was made.

 

[TellsItLikeItIs]

Yeah I wouldn't have used that cue as my example. But I do have some that would fool most knowledgeable cue people as to where it was made.

John Ive seen the Furys up close. Theyre not as bad as some of the imprts Ill give you that. Are they perfect. No. But what man made item in this world is!

The biggest problem I have with imports is that they just dont have the life span many American made cues do. I just dont see them being a good buy for someone that wants quality.

 

[WilleeCue]

Are you kidding ... I have seen worse work than this selling for $1000 from well known American cue makers.
And if you are honest ... so have you!

BYW. those inlays are tight.
Material to material ... no glue line.
If that is what you call sloppy ... then most American cue makers are well below your standards.

And you need to look at the photos again with the understanding that it only costs $100.

I did not say it was perfect.
I only said that unless I said otherwise you would not have assumed it was made in China and would accept it as an American made cue worth a lot more than $100.

That it is not up to YOUR high standards is irrelevant.

I can tell that you are a man that wants only perfection ... no hand crafted crap for you. It is either perfect or it is crap ... right?

I agree that YOU should question the quality of my work.
It aint perfect so you would not like it.

But the point of this thread is that the new series of China made cues are better than a LOT of American cues costing five times as much.
China made cues can no longer be assumed as junk.
It is a fact and covering it up by sticking your head in the sand or attacking anyone that say so dont make it go away.

 

[John Barton]

John Ive seen the Furys up close. Theyre not as bad as some of the imprts Ill give you that. Are they perfect. No. But what man made item in this world is!

The biggest problem I have with imports is that they just dont have the life span many American made cues do. I just dont see them being a good buy for someone that wants quality.

Well that's a sticky subject because lifespan also has to take into account what kind of life a cue is subjected to. We just had that major drama thread about a Sugartree cue with a warped butt and I think most would agree that Eric is quite meticulous about how he builds his cues.

Now me, I have always been the kind of person who leaves his cues in the car in all seasons and climates and weather. I have done it with my high end cues and my low end ones.

The thing about "quality" is that it's also hard to pin down. The Chinese cues from the top two makers are now on par with the quality of the cues which are mass produced in the USA. Were they that way five years ago? No they weren't. And they were worse ten years ago. 20 years ago they weren't even fit to be called pool cues.

I have had almost every major brand of cue you can think of. I had Pechauers that I bought in 2001 where all the joints came undone. I have sent Schons and Jacobys back with factory defects - and in all three cases they promptly took care of the cues and fixed everything. In another situation I took in a LOT of cues from a well known small HIGH END cue maker on trade because I had no choice as he could not pay me the $5000 he owed from the cases I fronted him. Another well known and highly regarded cuemaker sat in my hotel room and went through those cues putting little sticky circles next to all the defects in each cue. Every cue looked like it had yellow measles.

Needless to say we didn't even recover $3000 of that $5000 we were owed through selling these cues and this was over $12,000 in retail value.

We all know stories of this cue maker or that cue maker in the USA whose quality is not there, whose cues warp, or whose inlay work needs work. And we don't even need to talk about Meucci.

If you look at quality as a spectrum with the American cuemaker's product at the very top - say that they have taken the construction of wood cues to the highest possible level and with the Chinese cues of 20 year's ago at the bottom then you would have to agree that in order to stay in business and compete the Chinese would need to up their quality while the Americans would need to improve their efficiency. Because it is natural progression for those with low quality to get better through market demand and access to better materials and techniques. And with more cuemakers starting up in the USA it brings down the average quality until the imports and the domestic production reach an equilibrium where they really aren't that far apart.

I think that for every defective import that you see you can figure that there are thousands more that are functioning fine and staying straight after years of play.

When I first went to work for Sterling I *****ed about the quality left and right because I am a stickler for quality. So one night I stayed up all night examining the data about our returns. I looked at the data from every angle and finally had to come to the conclusion that our quality was much better overall than I thought as based on the fact that most returns were not because of defects in the cue. Most were things like wrong weight, don't like the color etc... After that I felt that we had a pretty good quality level and that I could and would be comfortable selling any of our cues to anyone.

And you're right, the Fury cues are not perfect. Bill Stroud of JossWest once told me that there is no such thing as a perfect pool cue. And it's especially true when you are talking about a cue that is a production cue. But the process turns out damn good cues for the money and they do hold up really well for most people who buy them. For some they warp quickly or the rings pop but this happens all the time with domestic cues as well. All of the new McDermotts I owned in the 80s and 90s needed to have the ferrule sanded flush one week after I took it from the bag. Every one of them suffered from swelling ferrules. Almost every Schon I ever owned ended up with air under the finish at the rings and around the inlays.

As an investment for resale down the road you are not going to be happy with an import mass production brand. As the kind of investment where you compare cost of use on a year by year basis then I would argue that today's import cues from the top two Chinese factories offer as much if not more value than a lot of domestic brands. Hope that makes sense.

Gotta go I am breaking my vacation from AZ and I have to make Fury Marketing Posters for the APA tournament in Vegas.

 

[TellsItLikeItIs]

Are you kidding ... I have seen worse work than this selling for $1000 from well known American cue makers.
And if you are honest ... so have you!

Yeah so have I but that doesnt make it right does it!

And you need to look at the photos again with the understanding that it only costs $100.

I dont care if its only $1.00. Its either right or wrong. If you want to peddle this junk fine. That only tells me more aout the standards youve set.

I did not say it was perfect.
I only said that unless I said otherwise you would not have assumed it was made in China and would accept it as an American made cue worth a lot more than $100.

Tell ya what Mr Willee. Post a photo and Ill ya tell the difference.

The it is not up to YOUR high standards is irrelevant.

Its not my standards that are in question.

I can tell that you are a man that wants only perfection ... no hand crafted crap for you. It is either perfect or it is crap ... right?

Thats almost right. Nothing man made is perfect. That doesnt make it crap though. I happen to take a lot of pride in what you call hand crafting.

I agree that YOU should question the quality of my work.
It aint perfect so you would not like it.

When you represent yourself in such a way that you praise work like you showed it does cause me to wonder about your workanship and judgement. I dont necessarily expect perfection. I do expect quality though.

But the point of this thread is that the new series of China made cues are better than a LOT of American cues costing five times as much.
China made cues can no longer be assumed as junk.
It is a fact and covering it up by sticking you head in the sand dont make it go away.[/

No I believe the point of this thread is that youre not selling cues and your trying to BS your entry into AZ to sell junk.

If youd take the time to study the cost of offshore cues versus USA made you would clearly see your numbers are way off. 5 times as much? Not hardly. In many cases the USA made cue is equal to and sometimes less expensive than offshore.

 

[WilleeCue]

The diamond inlay looks like it was installed using a hammer and chisel.

Here is a close up of the four butt inlays.
As they say one photo is worth a thousand words.

I would show the forearm ones but they are the same high quality.
I dont care what YOU call it ... I see quality workmanship and if you dont ... that is too bad.
I will give credit where credit is due regardless of WHO or Where a cue is made.


Are you just trying to stir up something or just attack me with your comments.?

 

[xianmacx]

Willee,

Rep to you for starting this thread and for acknowledging the quality of some of these cues.

Ian

 

[WilleeCue]

No I believe the point of this thread is that youre not selling cues and your trying to BS your entry into AZ to sell junk.

Wrong again ... I dont sell any cue but what I make.
And I dont sell many of them cause I dont BS and flim flam.
I look at my cues with the same eye as I look at others.
No big head here ... just bare feet! ... ...

Just "telling it like it is".

 

[TellsItLikeItIs]

Here is a close up of the four butt inlays.
As they say one photo is worth a thousand words.

Yeah I was wrong when I said The diamond inlay looks like it was installed using a hammer and chisel.

Looks more like a hammer and screwdriver. Good luck Willee.