What makes a good cue - cuemakers ONLY please.

J

John Barton

New member
Dear Cue Makers,

In an effort to define what makes a good cue please list your criteria of what makes a good cue.

I am not looking for a debate. This is an effort to FINALLY come up with a bullet point list that anyone can use to evaluate a cue to determine as best they can whether it is a good cue or not.

Please remember that "hit" is entirely subjective so while I agree with you that having a "good hit" is a sign of a good cue not everyone has the same idea of what a good hit is.

Thank you in advance for all that participate.

To the AZers who aren't cuemakers would you please not participate in this thread. We can start another thread that makes a list from the player's perspective. In that way the cue makers can see what customers think and players can see what cue makers think.

Although I am not a cue maker I am responsible for checking the cues which leave the factory so I will start with the most obvious thing about a new cue that defines quality to me.

1. A cue must be straight.
 
John Barton said:
1. A cue must be straight.
Click to expand...

Hi John,

Straightness would seem to be a given yet few people really know how to verify a cue's straightness. Most roll the assembled cue on the table, watching for variations in light under the shaft. The more knowledgeable buyers disassemble the cue & roll the individual sections for a more discerning look at potential problems. Many sight along the cue's length, aiming at a distant light source.

The following test has been mentioned before but I rarely see buyers employ it. This baffles me because this test is a real eye-opener & leaves no room for arguments about straightness.

Roll assembled cue in this manner:
Lay the cue on the table such that the joint is resting an inch or so past the rail & the buttcap is on the table surface. This allows the cue only two points of contact - both on the extreme ends of the butt. Roll the cue & watch the tip. It will scribe an arc in the air if everything is not perfect. Perfection is not an unreasonable goal yet you'd be surprised at how seldom it is achieved.
 
Straightness.
Quality Finish.
Quality woods.
Quality materials like joint material.
Good Glue Joints. This is one of the most important.
The fit must be tight everywhere on the cue.
Cue tapered slowly to give wood time to acclimate.
Those are a few that come to mind instantly without giving it much thought.
 
Mr. Barton,
First let me start by saying I don't dislike you. You appear to be bright guy and quite frankly, I just don't see that we have too much of that in this world.

Anyway, about the only thing I feel that I can offer to this thread is to suggest that this might not be the right crowd or the the right time to be asking your question. I mean, given how the "Chinese are coming" thread went down and the obvious fact that the imports are squeezing some American CMs (actually all CMs to some degree), do you honestly believe that the very people that you are squeezing are going to willingly tell you how to put even more of their income in jeopardy by telling you how to build a better cue? Does Ford go to Honda to ask them how to build a better car so they will be in a better position to compete with them?

Good luck with your endeavors put I'm not someone who will knowingly create competition for myself or my fellow tradesmen. If I may speak candidly, if you don't know what makes for a good cue at this point, you might be in the wrong business.

I would venture to guess that the reason the answers you've gotten so far are somewhat vague is because I'm possibly not alone in my thinking.
 
Last edited:
KJ Cues said:
Mr. Barton,
First let me start by saying I don't dislike you. You appear to be bright guy and quite frankly, I just don't see that we have too much of that in this world.

Anyway, about the only thing I feel that I can offer to this thread is to suggest that this might not be the right crowd or the the right time to be asking your question. I mean, given how the "Chinese are coming" thread went down and the obvious fact that the imports are squeezing some American CMs (actually all CMs to some degree), do you honestly believe that the very people that you are squeezing are going to willingly tell you how to put even more of their income in jeopardy by telling you how to build a better cue? Does Ford go to Honda to ask them how to build a better car so they will be in a better position to compete with them?

Good luck with your endeavors put I'm not someone who will knowingly create competition for myself or my fellow tradesmen. If I may speak candidly, if you don't know what makes for a good cue at this point, you might be in the wrong business.

I would venture to guess that the reason the answers you've gotten so far are somewhat vague is because I'm possibly not alone in my thinking.
Click to expand...

I wasn't asking for a guide on how to build a better cue. I guarantee you that if you come to the Kao Kao factory you will find a facility capable of building any cue in any manner known to man. At this point they don't need any more help on the technical side of building cues.

I am sure that you are right about the fact that there have been few answers.

But that again goes back to my point in the Chinese Cue thread. If you can't make a list of what makes a good cue then you can hardly make a list of what is not.

There are visible things and invisible things that go into cuemaking.

No layman is going to be able to tell the difference between a Fury and a Tim Scruggs if both of them have excellent fit and finish. So then the only way to tell the differences come down to how each cue holds up.

Ten years ago there was no question that the cues coming in couldn't hold a candle in the durability department.

Ask Sid and Rick. I sent them a batch of "Spencer" cues that Daniel Liao sent to me to try and promote. Seyberts sent them back inside of two weeks with every problem you can think of. I have never been a fan of Taiwanese/Chinese cue production.

UNTIL I went to work with Sterling and got to play with the Fury cues.

At that first show I thought to myself how in the hell am I going to sell these cues? I didn't know what to tell people.

So I did what I always do, I picked one off the wall and started playing with it and started running racks with it. I was quite surprised at how well it played. Keep in mind that I hadn't really paid any attention to Chinese cues since the embarrasing thing with the Spencer cues. At home I had a whole wall of mid to high-end cues from custom cue makers across the board.

So anyway here I am playing with this cue and liking it. I looked over a bunch more and they all had good shafts, flush parts, were straight, nice wood, I really couldn't find anything wrong with them in either the appearance or the performance.

So I had an idea to just let people play with them rather than try to convince them that this new brand was something special.

My idea went like this. You play with the cue for a little while and give me your opinion of how it feels and your opinion of the quality and I will give you a t-shirt.

Of course I knew that everyone was likely to be nice because they were getting a t-shirt. So I just evaluated their level of play and graded their opinions based on what level of player they are.

I put no prices on the cues. So no one knew if the cue they were using was $99 or $499. Most folks tried out the $99 ones as they were parked closest to the table.

The response was just as I expected it to be. I had good players going "who made this"???

One person tried to trade me an $800 Schon for a $99 Fury before he found out the price.

Anyway the point is that at that point I too realized that the Chinese had 'arrived' in their cue making skills.

And in the five years since then I have seen them get better and better.

In all honesty they aren't even looking at the American market anymore as it's declining for them.

They are looking at the domestic market in China which is heating up a lot.

Players in China are willing to pay top dollar for good cues and some of the Chinese companies are filling that need here and making more money for their cues than they get by selling the same cues to the USA.

ALL OF YOU CUE MAKERS SHOULD PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO WHAT I AM GOING TO SAY NOW:

China is the new Japan.

You should be finding out how to cultivate contacts to the Chinese and Taiwanese sellers and brokers of cues because this market will be the next giant growth market for pool cues.

In China the HOUSE cues are two piece cues at the same level that we sell in the USA for $50 to $100. Imagine a country full of players looking for better cues than that...........

So whether you think my asking you to make a list of what makes a good cue is self serving or not you better figure out how to explain it to anyone in simple terms because there is a lot of money here now and I am sure you want it coming back your direction.
 
Quality materials and workmanship.
If you want a tool, it should be solid.
If you're after looks, it should be built with accuracy (points should match, rings should line up, etc).

While not necessarily adding to what makes a good cue, but adds value to a cue, is knowing that the builder, factory or place you bought it from will stand behind it. Does it have a satisfaction guarantee or warranty? Will it get fixed or replaced if it develops a buzz or some other anomoly?

Trying to look at this from both a builders view as well as a customers view.

JMHO. YMMV.
Frank
 
It should be built with greatest possible accuracy which means touching the fewest numbers of hands possible. Preferably two.
 
As far as I'm concerned, a cue is a tool for playing pool. Since every cue plays a little differently than another, you would want the cue to last a lifetime. My take on what constitutes a good cue is good materiales and good building techniques. This helps to insure the cue has solid playing ability and longevity. What tool is worth having if it self destructs in a year or so or one that has rattles, is not straight and just feels like a broom even if it lasts forever?
Now everyone likes their possessions to look nice weather it be their car or their wife but these qualities have nothing to do with the proper function of this tool which is to strike a ball accurately to play pool and last a long time. It is for this reason that I don't include aesthetics into the equation of the parameters needed to be a good cue. As stated though, since most people want their possessions to look nice it is much easier to sell a cue that is aesthetically near perfect as well as playing good and long lasting. After all, a solid 24 karat gold hammer encrusted in jewels may look wonderful but pales in performance to a forged steel one when driving a nail.

Dick
 
KJ Cues said:
Mr. Barton,
First let me start by saying I don't dislike you. You appear to be bright guy and quite frankly, I just don't see that we have too much of that in this world.

Anyway, about the only thing I feel that I can offer to this thread is to suggest that this might not be the right crowd or the the right time to be asking your question. I mean, given how the "Chinese are coming" thread went down and the obvious fact that the imports are squeezing some American CMs (actually all CMs to some degree), do you honestly believe that the very people that you are squeezing are going to willingly tell you how to put even more of their income in jeopardy by telling you how to build a better cue? Does Ford go to Honda to ask them how to build a better car so they will be in a better position to compete with them?

Good luck with your endeavors put I'm not someone who will knowingly create competition for myself or my fellow tradesmen. If I may speak candidly, if you don't know what makes for a good cue at this point, you might be in the wrong business.

I would venture to guess that the reason the answers you've gotten so far are somewhat vague is because I'm possibly not alone in my thinking.
Click to expand...

Tap Tap Tap, this the best post to this thread.

KJ, you handled this like a true international Ambassador!!!:D

KJ, if President Obama reads this thread I am certain he will have Hillery Clinton contact you, she needs some help when dealing with Communist Asian Countries.:D
 
manwon said:
Tap Tap Tap, this the best post to this thread.

KJ, you handled this like a true international Ambassador!!!:D

KJ, if President Obama reads this thread I am certain he will have Hillery Clinton contact you, she needs some help when dealing with Communist Asian Countries.:D
Click to expand...
Even though he completely mistook the intent of the thread in the first place? :rolleyes:

On what planet do you spend most of your time? :D

If you want a 'best post' take a look at what Dick said...
 
Sheldon said:
Even though he completely mistook the intent of the thread in the first place? :rolleyes:

On what planet do you spend most of your time? :D

If you want a 'best post' take a look at what Dick said...
Click to expand...

I have to completely disagree with you here, John never intended for anyone to answer him in the true terms of the question posed. KJ diplomatically called him on it which is the most appropriate thing to do under the circumstances, now if that is beyond your grasp, which I doubt it is I am sorry. Now, at the same time this takes nothing away from what Dick said, I only think that KJ's post was more appropriate in this case.

It is not my intention to insult your intelligence by stating that you can not see through Johns attempt at additional drama, through questions that are subjective and based upon opinions, so I will leave it at that.

Oh and by the way, the planet I live on is Classified TS SBI!!!!!!:thumbup:

Take Care
 
Sheldon said:
Even though he completely mistook the intent of the thread in the first place? :rolleyes:.
Click to expand...

Actually, I'm pretty sure KJ understands the underlying intent of this thread fairly well. While on the surface it would appear to be a legitimate question, but after reading the "other" long winded thread I'm pretty sure this one is an effort to prove some point or other and continue the arguement.

And before I have to read a 1500 word reply on how I'm wrong, this is just my opinion after reading the "other" post and the impression it left with me. But what do I know, I've only been to Canada ;)

Frank
 
Jr's Farm said:
Actually, I'm pretty sure KJ understands the underlying intent of this thread fairly well. While on the surface it would appear to be a legitimate question, but after reading the "other" long winded thread I'm pretty sure this one is an effort to prove some point or other and continue the arguement.

And before I have to read a 1500 word reply on how I'm wrong, this is just my opinion after reading the "other" post and the impression it left with me. But what do I know, I've only been to Canada ;)

Frank
Click to expand...

Then underlying intent is clear. It's to get a DEFINITIVE list of what makes a good cue.

This list would apply to all cues made regardless of where they are made.

Anyway, thanks for those that have replied so far. Sooner or later we can make a list of points that are visible and invisible. Visible criteria can be judged by anyone and invisible ones can be researched.

So when a customer comes to you and says how many of these points do your cues satisfy you can say, all of them, some of them, or I don't know.

If you are a small cuemaker then you can probably easily say, all of them.

If you are a cue sales man who is really familiar with the build process of the cues and how they hold up then you can probably hit most of them.

If you are someone who doesn't know much then you will probably have to say you don't know.

The point is that a TRUE comprehensive list serves ALL CONSUMERS and ALL SALESPEOPLE and ALL CUE MAKERS equally.

Then at least we all have a common base from which to judge cues and we don't have to have speculative arguments. It's very simple, get a cue and put it to the test, regardless of who made or where it was made.

That's my motivation. In my entire life I have ALWAYS sold my products on the basis of acquiring as many facts about them as I could so that I was armed for every possible question.

That's why people who buy things from me are happy with what they got. I tell them everything about the product up front and leave nothing out so that they know exactly what they are getting.

Now, if someone like Craig Rittel wants to disparage my imports in favor of the imports he sells then my response is simply to allow the consumer to test them both against "the list" and let them decide.

For example, the customer might ask this from the list, "Craig, the J&J cue you sell, was it constructed using high grade adhesives that will hold up over time?" And Craig's answer should be something like this, "I don't really know but in my experience with this brand, the cues hold up well over time"

Then if the customer asks me the same question, I can say, "Yes, the Fury cues are constructed with high grade adhesives, the same as the best American cue makers use and I know this because I work in the factory that makes Fury cues. And since we are the distributor of Fury cues I can tell you that we have sold thousands of these cues over the years and get very little in the way of returns for any glue issues."

If the same question is asked of my salesmen then their answer would be similar to what Craig's should be. However then they could ask me and I could answer it with more accuracy so that they then would be able to pass that on to the consumer.

However without such a point on a list that is easily found by consumers then they won't even know to ask such a question.

Isn't this a better way to sell cues rather than through knocking other makes with speculation and hearsay?
 
manwon said:
I have to completely disagree with you here, John never intended for anyone to answer him in the true terms of the question posed. KJ diplomatically called him on it which is the most appropriate thing to do under the circumstances, now if that is beyond your grasp, which I doubt it is I am sorry. Now, at the same time this takes nothing away from what Dick said, I only think that KJ's post was more appropriate in this case.

It is not my intention to insult your intelligence by stating that you can not see through Johns attempt at additional drama, through questions that are subjective and based upon opinions, so I will leave it at that.
Click to expand...
I see no drama in his question at all. If you think he's baiting you, perhaps you should just let it go.
 
That's what I figured, just a continuation of the last crusade. Thanks for making my point.

The whole topic is subjective to begin with. Besides the obvious criteria which has already been stated, it's almost as bad as as asking what's the best tip material to use. Everyone has their own taste and we all know you can't please all the people all the time.

Any other time and I believe this would be a good topic to discuss, but considering the timing and the source it might lead one to be dubious.
Again, just my humble opinion.
 
Last edited:
Jr's Farm said:
That's what I figured, just a continuation of the last crusade. Thanks for making my point.

The whole topic is subjective to begin with. Besides the obvious criteria which has already been stated, it's almost as bad as as asking what's the best tip material to use. Everyone has their own taste and we all know you can't please all the people all the time.

Any other time and I believe this would be a good topic to discuss, but considering the timing and the source it might lead one to be dubious.
Again, just my humble opinion.
Click to expand...

Well, so much for allowing only cuemakers to list their ideas.

I feel that even if the question was born out of the previous discussion then it's still a valid and important question.

I also disagree that this topic is subjective. If I handed you two cues and one had rings lifting, a warped shaft, and finish scratches and the other were pristine then it's clear that one is in better quality shape than the other one. However the one in bad shape might well be the better cue if you only knew what you were looking at.

Such a list might help people to look beyond the surface and have a great place to start when they are trying to evaluate a cue.

And isn't that what we all really want?

Any time I want to buy something I like to be able to research it. I tend to go with the most authoritative reference I can find.

I can certainly understand that you feel that a lot of cuemakers have different ideas on what quality is and sure, that can be subjective. And of course no one wants to have to a list out there where their own cues may not be up to par on some of the criteria. I fully understand that aspect.

Bill Stroud of Joss West told me that there is no such thing as the perfect cue. Still, he said, he spends a lot of time and throws away a lot of wood trying to get them as close as possible.

Anyway, hopefully some more folks will have some thing to add that we can make into a real checklist that all consumers and dealers can use.

I asked the ACA to do this in 1997ish and they didn't do it. So maybe we can do it now and send it out to every person we can.
 
manwon said:
I have to completely disagree with you here, John never intended for anyone to answer him in the true terms of the question posed.
Click to expand...

I am not sure how you figure to know my intentions but staying away from the obvious fact that if you have telepathic ability then you are doing humanity a disservice by reading my mind, I'd like to ask you as a cue maker to answer the question.

If you want to you can elaborate on whatever you think the "true terms of the question" are.

Hopefully your answer will have something to do with helping a consumer to look at a cue in the absence of any salesmen and warranties and determine for themselves if it's a good cue or not.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top