Rules question.

Myk

Myk

dorkfish
Silver Member
I was playing a 100 point game with a friend last night, and a unique question came up. I had 92, and there were 8 balls left on the table. I proceeded to run 7 of the 8, and left myself the final ball in the side. But, the cueball was on the opposite side of the rack area.

My question was, am I allowed to pocket the final ball for game point, or do I need to rerack the balls first regardless?

After thinking it through, my opinion was that I had to rerack, because if I missed the last ball, the cue ball or the object ball might travel through the rack area, disturbing the rack for my opponent's advantage.

To be on the safe side, we reracked the balls, therefore hooking me from the final ball and causing me to play safe.

I did win the game, but it took a little longer.
 
Myk said:
I was playing a 100 point game with a friend last night, and a unique question came up. I had 92, and there were 8 balls left on the table. I proceeded to run 7 of the 8, and left myself the final ball in the side. But, the cueball was on the opposite side of the rack area.

My question was, am I allowed to pocket the final ball for game point, or do I need to rerack the balls first regardless?

After thinking it through, my opinion was that I had to rerack, because if I missed the last ball, the cue ball or the object ball might travel through the rack area, disturbing the rack for my opponent's advantage.

To be on the safe side, we reracked the balls, therefore hooking me from the final ball and causing me to play safe.

I did win the game, but it took a little longer.
Click to expand...

you did right. You needed to rerack.
 
Re-Rack

You must Re-Rack before you shoot that last ball.

Here's a question: When shooting at a object ball and you pocket another ball with the object ball. does the other ball count?

It is my understanding. If the other ball goes in the pocket (before) the object ball. It does not count.
If it goes in (after) the object ball, then it counts.

Now here is another one. Do you spot that ball that does not count, after the player misses as long as it is in the same rack of balls?
 
14-1StraightMan said:
You must Re-Rack before you shoot that last ball.

Here's a question: When shooting at a object ball and you pocket another ball with the object ball. does the other ball count?

It is my understanding. If the other ball goes in the pocket (before) the object ball. It does not count.
If it goes in (after) the object ball, then it counts.

Now here is another one. Do you spot that ball that does not count, after the player misses as long as it is in the same rack of balls?
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If you make the ball you call in the pocket you call, and do not foul, you get credit for any other balls you pocket on that shot regardless of whether they went in before or after the called ball.
 
Thanks for the help

I was going to ask you. Where you found that rule. I looked in a few books and it was not mentioned. (Play Your Best Straight Pool by Capelle, The Straight Pool Bible by Cranfield etc.). I did find it in The Officai Rules of Billiards by the Billiard Congress of Amer., but it does not go into great detail.
It states: "Any additionally pocketed balls on a legal stoke is scored as one point for the shooter". It states nothing about Before or After.
 
Straightman

I assume that you are aware that if you call 5 ball in the corner(for instance) that does not mean that you must hit the 5 ball with the cue ball. You can play any kind of shot, combo, carom, whatever. If the 5 ball goes in the corner it's a legal shot.

Dave Nelson
 
Yes.

Dave Nelson said:
Straightman

I assume that you are aware that if you call 5 ball in the corner(for instance) that does not mean that you must hit the 5 ball with the cue ball. You can play any kind of shot, combo, carom, whatever. If the 5 ball goes in the corner it's a legal shot.

Dave Nelson
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Yes Dave. Thanks. I know that and even if the 5 ball goes around the table 3 times, it counts as long as it goes into the pocket that you called.
My question is about other balls pocketed after or before the ball that you called goes in. It is very hard to find that rule in writing.
 
14-1StraightMan said:
Yes Dave. Thanks. I know that and even if the 5 ball goes around the table 3 times, it counts as long as it goes into the pocket that you called.
My question is about other balls pocketed after or before the ball that you called goes in. It is very hard to find that rule in writing.
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I am very new to 14.1 but my understanding of the rules is that "The order in which the balls drop is not important" If you make the called ball in the called pocket and you have made a legal shot (did not foul in any other way) you get to count ANY additional balls that drop on that same shot regardless if you intended to make them or not and regardless of which ball or which pocket or what order they drop.

This happens a lot on the break shots.
When you set up properly on the intended break ball then sink that break ball while breaking the rack it is not unusual to make multiple balls in various pockets and in various order but they all count when you make the intended break ball.
 
This is my understanding as well.

For example: If you shoot into a cluster near the foot (rack area) to attempt to pocket a called ball in the head corner pocket, and other balls happen to drop in the foot corner pocket(s) [or the side pockets] before you get that ball pocketed up the table, they all count provided the called ball falls in the called pocket. Order does not matter- the closer pocket balls are likely to fall first of course.

If you do not make the called ball, ALL balls that fell on the shot must get spotted on the long string.

And to the original question, you absolutely have to re-rack before shooting that last ball.
 
14-1StraightMan said:
You must Re-Rack before you shoot that last ball.

Here's a question: When shooting at a object ball and you pocket another ball with the object ball. does the other ball count?

It is my understanding. If the other ball goes in the pocket (before) the object ball. It does not count.
If it goes in (after) the object ball, then it counts.

Now here is another one. Do you spot that ball that does not count, after the player misses as long as it is in the same rack of balls?
Click to expand...

Been playing the game of straight pool starting in 1963. Knowing how to play doesn't mean I can site where to find the rules in a split second or a day.

In fact after a 20 year lay off I had to look up a few rules to get my facts straight. I can however tell you without a doubt it does not matter what ball goes in first and they all count.

Ive seen break shots where the called ball takes 3 seconds to drop and 4 other balls go in first. Again they all count.
 
Great comments

Thanks to all. Great comments from everyone. There is no doubt that all balls that fall in after or before the ball that you are pocketing count as long as the ball you are shooting at goes in.
Now that we have that straight,

Here's another one:

I always heard that if you are shooting and the cue ball is going into a pocket and you catch it with your hand, it is lost of game.
As I was looking at the rule book. It states: it is a 16 point foul. The in coming player has the choice of accepting the table with cue ball in hand behind the head string or making the player that fouled re-rack & break as the start of the game.
This is a good rule to know b/c I have seen this happen during matches.

It is too bad we all do not live near each other. It would be great to play some of these players 14-1. If anyone ever ends up taking a vacation to Dallas. Please let me know.
 
14-1StraightMan said:
... I always heard that if you are shooting and the cue ball is going into a pocket and you catch it with your hand, it is lost of game.
As I was looking at the rule book. It states: it is a 16 point foul. The in coming player has the choice of accepting the table with cue ball in hand behind the head string or making the player that fouled re-rack & break as the start of the game. ...
Click to expand...

I've got a hunch the rule book you are looking at is out of date. Please consult the WPA's World Rules (http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_summary) and see if you don't come to a different conclusion about the situation you cited. Note particularly paragraphs 6.6, 6.16, and 4.11.
 
Nothing wrong with my rule book

AtLarge said:
I've got a hunch the rule book you are looking at is out of date. Please consult the WPA's World Rules (http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_summary) and see if you don't come to a different conclusion about the situation you cited. Note particularly paragraphs 6.6, 6.16, and 4.11.
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I am using the Billiard Congress of Amer. rule book. I have clicked on your link and the paragraphs that you state do not address the issue of catching the cue ball in the pocket as I stated in my last post.
The paragraphs that you state pertains to touching the balls while they are in their path movement on the table top. Which leads to Unsportsmanlike Conduct for which there are a few different penalties and it is up to the referee.
 
14-1StraightMan said:
I am using the Billiard Congress of Amer. rule book. I have clicked on your link and the paragraphs that you state do not address the issue of catching the cue ball in the pocket as I stated in my last post.
The paragraphs that you state pertains to touching the balls while they are in their path movement on the table top. Which leads to Unsportsmanlike Conduct for which there are a few different penalties and it is up to the referee.
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The BCA has adopted the WPA's rules. The rules were changed at the start of 2008. I think the answer to the situation you cited is in the paragraphs I cited.
 
I'll go ahead and give you my interpretation of the rules for the situation you cited, namely, grabbing the cue ball as it is heading into a pocket.

The rules do not explicitly talk about it. But Paragraph 6.6 Touched Ball seems to encompass it: "It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of the cue ball except when it is in hand or by the normal tip-to-ball forward stroke contact of a shot. ... If such a foul is accidental, it is a standard foul, but if it is intentional, it is 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

Grabbing the cue ball would seem to be intentional, which makes the foul fall under 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

Paragraph 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct says: "The normal penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is the same as for a serious foul, but the referee may impose a penalty depending on his judgment of the conduct." The paragraph then lists the possible penalties, ranging from a warning to ejection from the competition.

Paragraph 4.11 Serious Fouls says: "For 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct, the referee will choose a penalty depending on the nature of the offense."

So, my conclusion is that in refereed competition, it's up to the referee. But this is just my interpretation from reading the rules.

I hope Bob Jewett will chime in here. He was part of the group that wrote the new rules, and he'll surely know the answer.

In the "friendly," non-refereed, games I play, we just ignore it when someone does this.
 
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AtLarge sent you to the correct site.

The following are standard fouls at 14.1:

6.6 Touched Ball
Casual play I'll remind them no touchy. Tournaments I leave it to the referees. It does not mention lose of game that I can see.

This happens way too often in 9 ball fouls. Bad hit or missed balls I again remind them don't touch the cue ball until it comes to rest. Scratches too. I'll say don't catch the ball once but I'm getting ball in hand anyway and they are on a foul. I'll mention this after the matches are over because their only hurting themselves.

I don't catch because A it's a foul and B the ball could hang in the pocket.

6.12 Cue Stick on the Table
I think this rule is if you do it for aiming purposes. I never had a foul called if I place my cue on the table while racking. I also never lay my cue on the table looking for a shot.
To many players don't understand or know this rule. Once you lay your cue on the table for aiming purposes and remove your hand it's a foul. I always let the first one slide but tell them after the fact so they don't do it again.
 
Thanks

AtLarge said:
I'll go ahead and give you my interpretation of the rules for the situation you cited, namely, grabbing the cue ball as it is heading into a pocket.

The rules do not explicitly talk about it. But Paragraph 6.6 Touched Ball seems to encompass it: ..... etc, etc



Thanks for your help but I will stick to the Billiard Congress of Amer. rule b/c it states exactly the rule for catching a cue ball as it is going into a pocket. The link you state pertains to movement of balls on the table & to Interpretation. As you stated above "grabbing the cue ball As it is heading into a pocket" That is not the same thing. I am talking about hand in the pocket and catching the cue as it drops.
Thanks again for trying to help. I do hope that the questions that I have listed in the above posts have help other players and made it interesting for them.
Click to expand...
 
14-1StraightMan said:
Thanks for your help but I will stick to the Billiard Congress of Amer. rule b/c it states exactly the rule for catching a cue ball as it is going into a pocket. The link you state pertains to movement of balls on the table & to Interpretation. As you stated above "grabbing the cue ball As it is heading into a pocket" That is not the same thing. I am talking about hand in the pocket and catching the cue as it drops.
Thanks again for trying to help. I do hope that the questions that I have listed in the above posts have help other players and made it interesting for them.
Click to expand...

As I said earlier, the BCA has adopted the WPA's rules. Go to the BCA web site and you will find the same set of rules as on the WPA site. I believe the BCA rule you are talking about no longer applies.

Obviously, I could be wrong about this. But I see no other current rule (than what I cited) that addresses the situation. I will send a PM to Bob Jewett asking him to read this thread and give his view as to whether I am reading the current rules properly for catching the cue ball as it drops into a pocket.

Edit: PM has been sent to Bob.
 
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Thanks

Ok, sounds good. I checked my rule book & it was published in 2000. Maybe, I am as "Old School" as some of these rules.
 
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