Old Tricks, New Dogs...
Aww, these kids nowdays...now we've caught on to these acronym's as well as WTF. (My favorite)
Aww, these kids nowdays...now we've caught on to these acronym's as well as WTF. (My favorite)
How long did it take you to learn Back English, BR, LR?
- Thread starter Destrukkt
- Start date
The tangent line is always 90 degrees from the line through the CB's and OB's centers at the moment of contact (i.e., 90 degrees from the direction you're aiming the OB) - that's the definition of "tangent line". The CB always caroms in that direction initially after hitting the OB (that's why the tangent line is so important to position play) - but unless the CB hits the OB while it's sliding, like a stop shot, it will quickly curve forward (with follow spin) or backward (with draw spin) off the tangent line. This doesn't change the tangent line, it just changes how long the CB stays on the tangent line.
pj
chgo
Those are techniques for applying sidespin to the CB and at the same time automatically angling your stick (adjusting your aim) to compensate for "squirt" (the tendency of the CB to go a little offline when using sidespin). They're probably the most common technical topic discussed here.
pj
chgo
Patrick
I don't want argue the Geometry definition of Tangent line. But I will argue the path of the CB after striking a OB WITHOUT ENGLISH. If you have a 5 degree strike angle on the OB then the CB travels 5 degrees in the opposite direction from that strike or a total of 10 degrees from the OB, Not 90 degrees. If you have a 45 Degree strike angle the CB travels 45 Degrees to the opposite direction to make a total of 90 Degrees. But on a 30 angle the CB goes 30 Degrees for a total of 60 degrees from the path of the OB. Once passed the 45 degree contact point your 90 Degree Tangent will hold up. BTW the actual degrees is not written in stone for all shots.
I am not a Physicist so I can not explain in scientific terms what I know happens after playing pool for well over 50 years.
I welcome any disagreement with my theories, That is the way I learn.
PS Yes Squirt is a big subject and not for a two month beginner. But I will give Destrukkt a Greenie for being interested enough to start this thread. I think we can all learn or re learn something from it.
Everyone progresses at a different rate, and the most important factors are probably the amount of time you spend practicing and whether or not you seek instruction. You will eventually get there if you work at it. One frustrating thing you will find about draw is that, if X is the number of hours it takes you to learn to draw the ball 10-12 feet, you will probably spend 10X hours learning how to draw the ball 10-12 inches when you need to. Drawing the ball is not that difficult, drawing the ball with repeatable accuracy is another story altogether.
The most common amateur mistake I see is when a person sets up to hit the cueball low, but then does something in the final stroke that causes the tip to rise, resulting in them hitting the ball much higher than they intended to. Often they make matters worse by hitting each successive shot harder and harder, thinking that power is the issue, but in reality the extra power works against them by accentuating the flaws in their stroke.
Aaron
The most common amateur mistake I see is when a person sets up to hit the cueball low, but then does something in the final stroke that causes the tip to rise, resulting in them hitting the ball much higher than they intended to. Often they make matters worse by hitting each successive shot harder and harder, thinking that power is the issue, but in reality the extra power works against them by accentuating the flaws in their stroke.
Aaron
I think maybe you're using the term "tangent line" to describe the cue ball's path. The tangent line and the cue ball's path are two different lines. They're only the same when the CB hits the OB with "stun" (sliding with no forward or backward rotation). Then the CB stays on the tangent line, at a 90-degree angle to the OB's path:
When the CB hits the OB with forward rotation (when it's rolling or when you hit it with follow), it curves forward off the tangent line after a few inches:
When the CB hits the OB with backward rotation (when you hit it with draw), it curves backward off the tangent line after a few inches:
pj
chgo
PJ
From a pure science aspect I will agree I am misusing the term Tangent Line as the CB path. But I also don't think a high percentage of pool player are Engineers etc. In my neck of the woods Tangent Line is used to mean the natural Path of the Cue ball without English after striking another ball. The U tube link I posted very much like your diagrams, also use the Term Tangent Line as the Cue Ball path after a hit.
But back to my original premise. Knowing the approximate CB PATH after it hits a object ball is imperative to playing position. Learning this first before using English will give a player a better learning curve as they advance. It also allows the Beginning player to concentrate on shot making instead of English.
absolutely right.. knowing the direction the CB will travel and bending that line with follow and draw can make a surprising amount of position shots all by itself.. left or right english should usually only be applied if you must alter that line as the CB comes off of a cushion.
I love this game..
Softshot
Thanks for the conformation. I felt I gave very good advice but had to keep defending it.
I would definitely check out Dr. Dave's instruction articles on http://billiards.colostate.edu. I started with his oldest article on the 90 degree rule - otherwise known as the tangent line. The diagrams helped my understanding immensely. Good luck.
ascreech
OK here I am still defending my opinion. In Dr Daves Tangent Line he talks about the stun shot as being the true Tangent Line CB path. How many Beginner can shoot a stun shot?? How many times does the average experienced player shoot a Stun Shot?? Most center ball strokes are in fact rolling forward at impact unless hit hard. but then what is a stun shot unless hit fairly hard.
i've been playing for about 6 years and i'm not sure what all this back english or br bl english stuff is.
don't think about that stuff man. just focus on making the balls and getting shape on the next ball.
all the fancy labels are what people use as excuses when they're sitting in their chairs
get away from back hand english!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YOU LINE UP THROUGH THE SHOT, LINE UP THROUGH THE ENGLISH TO THE CONTACT POINT ON THE OBJ BALL(DO NOT PIVOT YOUR BACK HAND), POINT THE CUE AT THAT POINT AND DELIVER IT THERE AND IT WILL GO IN THE HOLE
For seconds you also use english to position the cue ball, not to make the obj ball (unless its inside kill, which is about the only useful english to pocket balls). When you use the above technique the balls go where you want them to, no rocket science no BS. Just gotta work on speed control, but you point and you stroke and the ball falls. AIM THE CUE NOT THE CUE BALL, YOU DON"T AIM A BULLET, YOU AIM THE GUN.
Definately take up Ray Martin on the lessons, then go get some more from another qualified person like scott lee, or randy g, or good ol' steve...there are plenty of guys out there that can get you right.
happy shooting,
Grey Ghost
YOU LINE UP THROUGH THE SHOT, LINE UP THROUGH THE ENGLISH TO THE CONTACT POINT ON THE OBJ BALL(DO NOT PIVOT YOUR BACK HAND), POINT THE CUE AT THAT POINT AND DELIVER IT THERE AND IT WILL GO IN THE HOLE
For seconds you also use english to position the cue ball, not to make the obj ball (unless its inside kill, which is about the only useful english to pocket balls). When you use the above technique the balls go where you want them to, no rocket science no BS. Just gotta work on speed control, but you point and you stroke and the ball falls. AIM THE CUE NOT THE CUE BALL, YOU DON"T AIM A BULLET, YOU AIM THE GUN.
Definately take up Ray Martin on the lessons, then go get some more from another qualified person like scott lee, or randy g, or good ol' steve...there are plenty of guys out there that can get you right.
happy shooting,
Grey Ghost
you don't have to hit hard to get stun just drop your tip a little lower..
mastering the stop shot is the key to CB control I hit with stun every chance I get.. because it causes the most predictable reliable path for my CB.. I only change it when I have to..
Softshot
When I think of a stun shot that is straight in, My CB ends the exact same place the OB was. This is not a stop shot that ends just next to where the OB was but on the same spot. I have to use some speed to get my CB to make that last half turn. By lower my cue tip and shooting softer I am shooting a stop shot.
You're misusing it from a communication standpoint too. "Tangent line" isn't just the formal name of the 90 degree line, it's also what just about everybody calls that line. There's a good reason for that: it's the most useful reference line for position play.
Then people in your neck of the woods are out of step with the majority of pool players and will have the same communication problem that you've had here.
"Tangent line" is used in that video exactly as I (and just about everybody else) use it. Maybe you should watch it more carefully.
I agree with most of this.
pj
chgo
That's not quite a stop shot; it's really called a "rollthrough" shot. A stop shot stops without rolling through - that's why it makes sense to call it a stop shot.
Using these personal definitions rather than the definitions that everybody else uses causes miscommunications like you're experiencing here - and confuses beginners.
You can shoot a stop shot or a rollthrough shot either way: by hitting a little higher and harder or a little lower and softer.
pj
chgo
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This is bad advice. Learning what things are called is necessary to learn what others know, especially on a talk forum like this - where you can learn a lot and much more quickly than learning alone.
pj
chgo
I can pocket balls, I can't run a rack but I can pocket them pretty decently. I want to learn how to use follow and draw as I practice my pocketing ability starting now.
To the 2nd quote: To get far draw I have to hit the cueball pretty hard, to get follow I don't have to hit it so hard. This might be an error in my stroke, we'll see when someone who knows alot about pool helps me out in person.
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Well guys I pocket balls good , the thing is I don't set-up good at all unless it's a simple setup. If I could draw , or follow and understand where the cueball will go if I make it follow and hit the bumper then I will be playing much better. My stroke could use work that's for sure as well, because I can draw one out of 5 shots, and follow every shot. Just inconsistent on these aspects.
I read all the advice and I would prefer to learn how to draw and follow to setup for my shots before, or at the same time I learn tangent lines. Tangent lines is kind of a spectator-learning skill, you watch and learn it seems which I will do.. however I want to be able to draw and follow to setup for my next shots. Drawing and following seems like all I would need to be able to setup any shot on the table, and also are the two skills I want to master. I can already follow good but just don't know where the cueball will go when I hit a cut shot with follow very much, which is probably what the tangent line is. I will learn this as I play using follow.
I will get a lesson and have him fix my stroke if there are errors in it. I might even bridge my hand wrong when I'm playing, and if Ray Martin (my instructor im going to) makes me change my bridge then all my skills are out the window and I will suck terribly. My 100% cueball follow ability will be gone, and my 20% draw will be gone (just what I can with my 2 months of playing). I don't think my bridge is off by much if it is off, I think it is wrong a little though. Anyways ill focus on this with my teacher later, for forum help the draw/follow/tangent info is what im after/
Anyways we'll see what happens when I get that lesson. Anyways until then I am trying to make sure my stroke hits the same spot, I notice when I go in to hit after 2 little aim strokes, right before the 3rd when I give the stroke strength it's aim moves. (I notice this by examining chalk marks vs the red dot I was aiming for). i will practice this. Besides that I just need to practice draw and practice learning where the cueball will go when I use my follow ability so I can use that to setup shots.
Thanks a lot everyone and anymore evidence will be great. Thanks.
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Practice the Stop shot... you will never learn how to control follow nor draw until you can control the point in between..
you simply never will be able to really control your cueball without learning the stop shot.. that is square one
straight line into a corner pocket
start with the cue ball and object ball straight into a corner pocket one diamond away from each other shoot that 10 or 15 times until you can get the cueball to stop most of the time.
then set them up the same way but this time 2 diamonds apart.
ect.
ect.
that is where cueball control really lives..
drawing up and down the length of the table is a show off shot nothing more. yes you need a good stroke to perform it... but you rarely if ever actually use it to win a game..
a pure stop shot layout one ball stop for the next, stop for the next, stop for the next....is a WINNING pool players dream
once you know that shot all the others fall right into place..
trust me on that
good luck:grin-square:
you simply never will be able to really control your cueball without learning the stop shot.. that is square one
straight line into a corner pocket
start with the cue ball and object ball straight into a corner pocket one diamond away from each other shoot that 10 or 15 times until you can get the cueball to stop most of the time.
then set them up the same way but this time 2 diamonds apart.
ect.
ect.
that is where cueball control really lives..
drawing up and down the length of the table is a show off shot nothing more. yes you need a good stroke to perform it... but you rarely if ever actually use it to win a game..
a pure stop shot layout one ball stop for the next, stop for the next, stop for the next....is a WINNING pool players dream
once you know that shot all the others fall right into place..
trust me on that
good luck:grin-square: