JJ vs. JB Case review:

[SK Custom Cues]

The last part to me just made this stupid

Oh, and I am a lifetime member of the VFW, and I am a Veterans Couselor at the stste VA Regional office....so what does that or what you said have to do with anything :scratchhead:

Oh yea....and I am a lifetime member of the NRA.....and I coach baseball....and soccer.....and I am an Aries

:rotflmao: :killingme:
I'm a libra, and I know how to fish. I also know how to pick my nose. Once picked, I flick the boogers at egotistical 'know it alls' who are apparently not playing with a full deck, asking world class, respectable craftsmen to participate in a case making contest to suit his ego and then tell the case maker to shut his trap because he talks too much. :killingme:

This is not how God intended us to use AZ Billiards.

Lemme see, I think I will have Dennis Searing and Ernie Gutierrez make me a cue to my liking (because it's in their best interest) and then tell Jack Justis and John Barton (because people are too stupid to find out on their own) to each make a case to go with those cues, and I will rate them under MY SUPERIOR rating system, and then make them kiss my a$$ during the whole thing, challenge anyone on AZ to make me shut the hell up because honestly no one can make me do otherwise........???

 

[ftgokie]

:rotflmao: :killingme:
I'm a libra, and I know how to fish. I also know how to pick my nose. Once picked, I flick the boogers at egotistical 'know it alls' who are apparently not playing with a full deck, asking world class, respectable craftsmen to participate in a case making contest to suit his ego and then tell the case maker to shut his trap because he talks too much. :killingme:

This is not how God intended us to use AZ Billiards.

Lemme see, I think I will have Dennis Searing and Ernie Gutierrez make me a cue to my liking (because it's in their best interest) and then tell Jack Justis and John Barton (because people are too stupid to find out on their own) to each make a case to go with those cues, and I will rate them under MY SUPERIOR rating system, and then make them kiss my a$$ during the whole thing, challenge anyone on AZ to make me shut the hell up because honestly no one can make me do otherwise........???

Sorry, but my KEYBOARD is MY Weapon......you WILL SHUT THE HELL UP, Before I give you 40 keystrokes....and them letters WONT Look PRETTY!:grin: (How many keystrokes did it take to say THAT!).....Now go do some Ninja Stuff! Insert Ninja Avatar here!

 

[ftgokie]

Oh yea...I forgot. I have green eyes, and I like to cuddle/spoon :lovies:

 

[Misha]

Well then, OK.

Since the the only thing I have gleaned since my last post, were those I need to ignore , and since JB posts, it's been nothing but mindless drivel, I will proceed.

My site name is registered with Name Cheap. And the hosting service is 1 and 1. (this is for you techies). And since I have no need of a net site except this issue, it will be closed in due course.

So, the test will proceed, baring any complications, and will take, maybe a few weeks. I will attempt to bribe the pros into signing their name to their OWN comments, and will post the entire scanned document, and since I intend this to be an impartial test, I will attempt to keep ME out of it entirely.

I will be called out tomorrow, I'm advised. Therefore, I won't be able to sweat my action.

No problem, but it is what it is, right? I'll check out this thread every few days. Plus check any new PM's I may receive. However, to avoid any heat that may become of this to the forum, I'll only post the link when I'm done. (since the mods haven't removed this thread, I'll assume it's fine).

Semper Fi.

 

[JB Cases]

JB, thanks for weighing in, and you have had your say. Fair enough? <no need to answer> No more bandwidth from you, please.

I, and we all, will now wait for JJ to state his desires, and his opinion of this test.

I also realize that, with so much at stake, much is being done to make this test moot, and invalid. Rest assured, that I will do this test, unless someone with some juice, convinces ME otherwise. Even in that situation, I can do it on another forum or site or on my own, if I choose. If someone wants it stopped, they had better PM me fast, with a very good reason.

I can't be be bribed, intimidated, or threatened..........at all. I'm a life member of the VFW, and for those that understand, it is what it is

Last word from me. I don't think that there is much at stake here. Jack makes 150 cases a year and is retiring. Even if he has a successor lined up it's unlikely that they will increase the production much. Anyone who makes custom cue cases should be able to sell 150 cases a year in their sleep.

For me I plan to make about 100-150 cases a year as well at best. Right now we are lucky if we get three a week done. So, between us that's 300 cases a year.

With the J.Flowers series of cases those are going to go head to head against the Justis West cases and are up against Instroke as well. I expect to see between 500 and 1000 of the J.Flowers cases sold per year.

I don't think that a one off review no matter who "wins" will do much to alter the sales of cases that we make or cases that Jack makes.

I certainly believe that there are going to be people who order a J.Flowers cases based on it's lower price and by the same token there will be folks who order a Justis based on the prestige they get when owning one. The billiard industry as a whole is too small and fragmented for any one review to help or hinder anyone very much. It's a body of work type thing.

Jack has consistently put out great looking cases. His photos are always artistically done and show off the cases in a great way. His customers don't complain and have high praise for what they get. That's his portfolio and one "bad" review won't hurt it.

The same goes for me. We put out a lot of interesting cases and our customers are generally well satisfied.

A potential customer is far more likely to see the body of work that Jack and I do than they are any one review.

For me, if I got a bad review then I would link to the article and copy the essential points from it to my blog and address them. If the points made were valid then I would take them as constructive criticism and immediately fix the problem. If the points were not valid, or I should say if I felt that they weren't, then I would address them and give my reasons.

I highly doubt that Jack will be interested in doing this test in any form. For me it's just another way to grow but I don't see it as affecting my business one way or the other in any significant way.

Of course should our products come out on top then I will of course have the warm fuzzy feeling.......

John

 

[classiccues]

OK, here's my plan:

IF i get enough interest, then I'll continue with this project. This is NOT the place for anyone to say how great they think which one is based on owning only one, or some other reason, ok? If you want to do this, start your own thread, please.

If I get, say 10 people here that are debating which one of these to get, and they either PM me for anonymity, or say it here, I'll continue. Anonymity is guaranteed for those that ask, BTW.

After this, I'll PM both case makers and explain my comparison, tests, and evaluation strategy, and then ask their permission to continue. If one of them says no, I'll drop the whole thing. I will however, disclose which one, or both, whoever asked me not to continue. There will be no gratis cases, or hand picked ones, either. I was going to buy a new case anyway, this just speeds me up a little.

If enough people object here, or give me a good enough reason via PM, I'll drop it, also, as I have the greatest respect for both of them.

Also, a mod can ask me, and I'll drop it like a running chain saw I'm holding at the wrong end.

The time to stop this is now, as I will be as impartial as I can be, and nothing will be sugar-coated.

What say you?

This will only work if the two cases were BUILT BY the two people that you're looking to evaluate. That means Jack builds his case, John builds his. By John, I mean John. No Long Duc Dong, No Jet LI, no Bruce Lee, No Jackie or Charlie Chan, no Ho Chi Min, it has to be by Johns two hands. So that's a tough one to prove, so to judge the cases, there would have to be eye witnesses to each build, or at least to one of them.

No offense to either party, but really now...

JV

 

[AtLarge]

This will only work if the two cases were BUILT BY the two people that you're looking to evaluate. ,,,

JV

I don't think so, Joe. If the review is to have any value to people considering buying one of these cases, the cases being reviewed have to be similar to the ones that could be purchased. So they should have the same degree of personal involvement by JB and JJ as is normal for their cases.

 

[classiccues]

I don't think so, Joe. If the review is to have any value to people considering buying one of these cases, the cases being reviewed have to be similar to the ones that could be purchased. So they should have the same degree of personal involvement by JB and JJ as is normal for their cases.

I don't agree. There is a difference when someone says, hey I am a "designer" and I am a "maker". If you say I make better cases than you, then that means something. If you say my factory makes better cases than you, that is also different. But that is not what has been claimed. So IMHO if you are having a case buildoff between two people, then that is all it should be.

If John cannot build a case by himself, he should limit everything he says and say hey look, I have craftsmen that complete my vision, but I have designed the internals of the cases to be indestructible. However I cannot build these cases, as you see them. Therefore I am not a case builder, but a case designer. But I do think John could build one, if pressed.

I used to design machinery, I never once slipped up and said I built them. That was left to those individuals that wanted to be known as machinery builders.

JV

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

 

[Thunder Thighs]

case maker from the dark side there is...

 

[JB Cases]

This will only work if the two cases were BUILT BY the two people that you're looking to evaluate. That means Jack builds his case, John builds his. By John, I mean John. No Long Duc Dong, No Jet LI, no Bruce Lee, No Jackie or Charlie Chan, no Ho Chi Min, it has to be by Johns two hands. So that's a tough one to prove, so to judge the cases, there would have to be eye witnesses to each build, or at least to one of them.

No offense to either party, but really now...

JV

Really?

Well ok. If Jack will invest in the mold to make his extrusion tubes and build the interior himself then I will build the whole case myself.

Why do you think that what Jack does is so hard?

So what are you really saying here Joe? Does a person get a pass on quality IF they do all the work themselves?

I mean if we took the brand names off the cases - wouldn't then the fair comparison be about which item was better?

 

[JB Cases]

I don't agree. There is a difference when someone says, hey I am a "designer" and I am a "maker". If you say I make better cases than you, then that means something. If you say my factory makes better cases than you, that is also different. But that is not what has been claimed. So IMHO if you are having a case buildoff between two people, then that is all it should be.

If John cannot build a case by himself, he should limit everything he says and say hey look, I have craftsmen that complete my vision, but I have designed the internals of the cases to be indestructible. However I cannot build these cases, as you see them. Therefore I am not a case builder, but a case designer. But I do think John could build one, if pressed.

I used to design machinery, I never once slipped up and said I built them. That was left to those individuals that wanted to be known as machinery builders.

JV

I am a maker. I can make every aspect of the cases. Every one of them.

There is nothing about making a cue case that I can not personally do.

That is the difference between everyone in my shop and myself. I can do everything that they can and they can't do what I can.

By the way it's a little but funny when you bring this topic up when Jack buys premade interiors and has Ron Ross doing the tooling.

Because, what is the "case" really? Is a case the exterior piece of leather or is it the interior construction? Would anyone buy a Justis case if it had neither tubes nor a large plastic shell with fabric dividers? I doubt it.

So make no mistake here.

I am a cue case maker. And designer.

 

[JB Cases]

This will only work if the two cases were BUILT BY the two people that you're looking to evaluate. That means Jack builds his case, John builds his. By John, I mean John. No Long Duc Dong, No Jet LI, no Bruce Lee, No Jackie or Charlie Chan, no Ho Chi Min, it has to be by Johns two hands. So that's a tough one to prove, so to judge the cases, there would have to be eye witnesses to each build, or at least to one of them.

No offense to either party, but really now...

JV

Actually I don't think that the idea is to evaluate two items built by two people. It is to evaluate two items that two people stand behind.

For example, Jack stands behind a line of cases called Justis West that he has stated are IDENTICAL to the cases he makes in his Florida shop. Those Justis West cases are made in the Long Chan case factory in China.

I'd be happy to put up the J.Flowers model made by the Jiasen Cue Case factory in China against the Justis West.

Jack is the one who brought up the quality of fit and finish. I never claimed to be better than Jack on those aspects.

However I certainly have NO FEAR of letting our cases be evaluated in a fair and non biased way without regard to which hands actually did the building.

Because after twenty years of doing the same case I would expect Justis to have perfected his methods and to be putting out the best case he can. If it's not as good as a case put out by a group of people with less than 2 years experience then that's not my problem. Jack is the one who tries to claim that our work is inferior so he is going up against US and not just me.

 

[AtLarge]

... So IMHO if you are having a case buildoff between two people, then that is all it should be. ...

JV

Joe, this wasn't intended to be "a case buildoff between two people." The OP of this thread (Misha) initiated this idea in another thread: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=161742&page=5.

In post 69 of that thread Misha said, in part, "My next case will be a JB. After I get it, I'll do a very honest review of both." He already owns a tube-type Justis case. He has access to a ProLite Justis case in his area. He is buying a Barton case. His intention is just to provide a review or comparison of these cases. It has nothing to do with Barton and Justis each building a case entirely by themselves and then comparing those cases. The review has value only if it relates to products (or similar products) that other people can buy.

 

[manwon]

OK, here's my plan:

IF i get enough interest, then I'll continue with this project. This is NOT the place for anyone to say how great they think which one is based on owning only one, or some other reason, ok? If you want to do this, start your own thread, please.

If I get, say 10 people here that are debating which one of these to get, and they either PM me for anonymity, or say it here, I'll continue. Anonymity is guaranteed for those that ask, BTW.

After this, I'll PM both case makers and explain my comparison, tests, and evaluation strategy, and then ask their permission to continue. If one of them says no, I'll drop the whole thing. I will however, disclose which one, or both, whoever asked me not to continue. There will be no gratis cases, or hand picked ones, either. I was going to buy a new case anyway, this just speeds me up a little.

If enough people object here, or give me a good enough reason via PM, I'll drop it, also, as I have the greatest respect for both of them.

Also, a mod can ask me, and I'll drop it like a running chain saw I'm holding at the wrong end.

The time to stop this is now, as I will be as impartial as I can be, and nothing will be sugar-coated.

What say you?

Dude you need to buy some under wear that will protect you from the heat seaking missle that is headed for you Poop Shoot. All is not lost though you can still have this thread deleted and go to sleep!!!!:wink:

 

[Misha]

Dude you need to buy some under wear that will protect you from the heat seaking missle that is headed for you Poop Shoot. All is not lost though you can still have this thread deleted and go to sleep!!!!:wink:

Thanks for the warning, brother:grin: And, I've been working, so haven't had to time to even sweat my action on Donny!

Thanks for the clarity, JB, and I suppose JJ isn't gong to weigh in. As for the above comments, I'll answer one complaint that I already gave to you many years ago. When you were thinking of moving production to China, and wanted input, I said:

"Moving the Instroke line to China, is like moving production of a Rolex to Japan. While it may be good (and cheaper) labor, it still won't have the same mystic. Will it? The originals will be valued much more highly no matter what the build quality." (same for a Seiko made in Singapore or South Korea).

I haven't changed my mind about this, either. Sure, most people can't buy anything anymore that's not made in China or Taiwan. That's the way it is. However, people still need to be informed about exactly where a person's product is produced. It's also the law, btw.......This won't affect my decision to buy a JB case, but will always be a factor. The only part of a JJ case that is made in China is the entire interior, is that correct?

Also, can you post a list of your retail outlets? I'd like to attempt to get one, but I will try and make sure it's not hand picked. (not that I don't trust you)

Anybody got anything else they want to say, before I order a case?

JJ, JB, a pro. AZ crowd...........anybody? ( a PM is fine too, to protect your ID).

<don't bother to point out how crazy I am. I have never tried to deny that>

 

[larrynj1]

my ass itches.

 

[JB Cases]

Thanks for the warning, brother:grin: And, I've been working, so haven't had to time to even sweat my action on Donny!

Thanks for the clarity, JB, and I suppose JJ isn't gong to weigh in. As for the above comments, I'll answer one complaint that I already gave to you many years ago. When you were thinking of moving production to China, and wanted input, I said:

"Moving the Instroke line to China, is like moving production of a Rolex to Japan. While it may be good (and cheaper) labor, it still won't have the same mystic. Will it? The originals will be valued much more highly no matter what the build quality." (same for a Seiko made in Singapore or South Korea).

I haven't changed my mind about this, either. Sure, most people can't buy anything anymore that's not made in China or Taiwan. That's the way it is. However, people still need to be informed about exactly where a person's product is produced. It's also the law, btw.......This won't affect my decision to buy a JB case, but will always be a factor. The only part of a JJ case that is made in China is the entire interior, is that correct?

Also, can you post a list of your retail outlets? I'd like to attempt to get one, but I will try and make sure it's not hand picked. (not that I don't trust you)

Anybody got anything else they want to say, before I order a case?

JJ, JB, a pro. AZ crowd...........anybody? ( a PM is fine too, to protect your ID).

<don't bother to point out how crazy I am. I have never tried to deny that>

As far as I know the entire interior of a Jack Justis case comes from China and Jack does no work at all on it before putting into one of his exterior shells.

To clarify again though, my cases are made in China at MY workshop with people under my direct supervision and control. Every aspect of the case from choice of fabric to the nails is my choice. If something goes out of my shop that is not right then it's my fault and only my fault.

So my cases could be made anywhere in the world and they would still be my product and my responsibility because wherever they were made I would still be the biggest part of what created them.

The two places to buy my custom cases beside dealing with me directly are are www.indyq.com and www.cuesight.com - Those are the only dealers I sell to at the moment.

 

[Misha]

So my cases could be made anywhere in the world and they would still be my product and my responsibility because wherever they were made I would still be the biggest part of what created them.

Well, on this one point, I think we are both right. However, I will concede that you are responsible for the finished product, but not for their eventual resale or desirability to the public. However, if that gives your cases more bang for the buck, and thus a better value this is a business decision best left to you, and your customers. Is this fair?

I'll see what kind of rep your guys have and if they have what I want, and what they can give me price wise. If not what I need, then I'll deal directly with you, and will disclose that, too. Again, fair enough? Since I will be paying for all this work out of my own pocket, and time, etc, I'm not interested in a free case, however, I would like to see your normal retail prices, street prices, and "family" prices for comparison:grin-square:

You can PM me those, and I won't disclose any of them EXCEPT what you permit.

One of my questions will be: "On a scale of 1-10, please rate this case on a bang for the buck."

Fair question?

 

[manwon]

my ass itches.

I am sorry to hear that, but if you scratch it wash you hands!!!!!!!!!!:grin: