Greatest 9 Ball Player Dead/alive
- Thread starter bkkpool
- Start date
Reading the thread, it sounds like "best player alive" is being interpreted by most as meaning the living player with the greatest achievements.
Alive - It's too close to call between Sigel, Souquet, Hall, Strickland, and Archer. I'm not arguing with anybody who picks one of these.
Dead - There are still more than a few that feel Lassiter is the best nine ball player ever, but if living players are omitted from the debate, there is no debate. Lassiter by a mile!
Alive - It's too close to call between Sigel, Souquet, Hall, Strickland, and Archer. I'm not arguing with anybody who picks one of these.
Dead - There are still more than a few that feel Lassiter is the best nine ball player ever, but if living players are omitted from the debate, there is no debate. Lassiter by a mile!
Regardless, it all comes down to "what have you done for me period"
Dan marino might be one of the best Quarterbacks to ever play in the NFL, but he will never be mentioned in the same breath as Joe Montana by anyone with an IQ over 80.
Luther Lassiter
These "who are the best" or "who was the best" or "who would beat who" are my very favorite type of threads.
Here's something I posted about this subject a while back.....
3 things make a GREAT player.
1. Tournaments won
2. Gambling prowess
3. Longevity.
In my opinion, Luther Lassiter was the greatest 9 baller to ever play. Earl was the the best tournament 9 baller, but Luther beats him in gambling ability as well as longevity.
As for background on Luther Lassiter, he was born on Nov 5, 1918 and died at age 69 on Oct 25, 1988. He was a great player by the time he was in his 20s, but, in the 1940's and 1950's, there were hardly any major 9 ball tournaments being held. By the time the Johnson City tournaments came into being starting in 1961, Lassiter was already a legendary road player. Starting in 1962 (the 1st Johnson City 9 ball tournament) Lassiter dominated the field and won the first of his 6 World 9 ball championships. These Johnson City and Stardust tournaments were the defacto World Championships and they had fields that included Harold Worst, Ed Kelly, Irving Crane, Joe Balsis, Ronnie Allen, Danny Jones, Eddie Taylor, Larry Johnson, Jim Marino, Buddy Hall and many other great players. Lassiter won titles in 1962, 1963, 1964, 1967, 1969 and 1971. Keep in mind that at this time, he was 44 in 1962 and 53 in 1971....His peak as a player was argueably past, yet he still beat very, very talented players.
Now, not only was he a great TOURNAMENT player, he was also one of the greatest MONEY players that ever lived. His favorite game was "money pool", any game he could bet on. Believe me when I tell you this, his game went UP several notches for the cash. Some players play better in tournaments than they do when they gamble, and others, visa-versa. Lassiter was a better money player than a tournament player.
So, put those two facts together, add in his longevity at the top (30+ years) and I can make a very strong case for him. This of course does not take into consideration his 4 outright World 14.1 Championships, PLUS 5 14.1 Championships at Johnson City, 5 World All-Around Championships and 1 World 1 Pocket Championship and you have a very gifted player indeed.
As for Strickland, I call him the greatest tournament 9 baller since Lassiter and he may in fact be Lassiter's equal at TOURNAMENT 9 ball. His 6 World Championships and 5 U.S. Open 9 Ball Championships is a record that I believe we will not see broken, ever. Look how hard it is for anyone to repeat or win those majors more than once. But Strickland, even though early in his career he did gamble at pool, at GAMBLING he was no match for Lassiter. So, you have two very special tournament players and one of them (Lassiter) also exceled at gambling 9 ball, so the edge, I believe, has to go to Lassiter.
As for Efren Reyes, he also has a special title. The greatest all around player to have ever played pocket billiards. He was a great 9 baller, but not "the GREATEST" and here is what I base that opinion on. In the two major championships at 9 Ball, Efren has 1 World 9 Ball Championship in 1999 and 1 U.S. Open 9 Ball Championship in 1994. Sigel has 5 WC and 3 US Open's, Varner has 3 WC and back-to-back US Open titles. Archer, Hall, Souquet and Allen Hopkins have combined major 9 ball titles greater than Reyes' 2. BUT, Reyes also has 6 World 8 Ball Championships, he is the greatest Rotation player ever, in my opinion the greatest 1 pocket player ever and he is super at 14.1. Overall, Reyes is better than Lassiter and Strickland, but not at 9 ball.
Consider this....Lassiter won 6 World 9 Ball Championships from the age of 44 till he was 53. He would have won how many more had there been 9 ball tournaments in the 2 previous decades. But there weren't any.
So, if he won 6 World Chamionships 20 years after his prime, what would he have been like from the 1940's to 1960's?
Compare that to Reyes, who has one (1) World 9 Ball Championship, in an era where for 10 plus years, there were 2 "World 9 Ball Championships" available every year! And Reyes has a total of 1. Lassiter, who didn't have tournaments to compete in until he was 44, still won 6 of them.
These are just MY opinions and many other fans and historians who love and study the game as much as I do may have differing opinions. But, once I collected all the info that I had on these great players, I feel very confident in my selections of who was better at what.
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Here's the thread where that came from for those who are interested in more info on Mr Lassiter.....
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=119233
These "who are the best" or "who was the best" or "who would beat who" are my very favorite type of threads.
Here's something I posted about this subject a while back.....
3 things make a GREAT player.
1. Tournaments won
2. Gambling prowess
3. Longevity.
In my opinion, Luther Lassiter was the greatest 9 baller to ever play. Earl was the the best tournament 9 baller, but Luther beats him in gambling ability as well as longevity.
As for background on Luther Lassiter, he was born on Nov 5, 1918 and died at age 69 on Oct 25, 1988. He was a great player by the time he was in his 20s, but, in the 1940's and 1950's, there were hardly any major 9 ball tournaments being held. By the time the Johnson City tournaments came into being starting in 1961, Lassiter was already a legendary road player. Starting in 1962 (the 1st Johnson City 9 ball tournament) Lassiter dominated the field and won the first of his 6 World 9 ball championships. These Johnson City and Stardust tournaments were the defacto World Championships and they had fields that included Harold Worst, Ed Kelly, Irving Crane, Joe Balsis, Ronnie Allen, Danny Jones, Eddie Taylor, Larry Johnson, Jim Marino, Buddy Hall and many other great players. Lassiter won titles in 1962, 1963, 1964, 1967, 1969 and 1971. Keep in mind that at this time, he was 44 in 1962 and 53 in 1971....His peak as a player was argueably past, yet he still beat very, very talented players.
Now, not only was he a great TOURNAMENT player, he was also one of the greatest MONEY players that ever lived. His favorite game was "money pool", any game he could bet on. Believe me when I tell you this, his game went UP several notches for the cash. Some players play better in tournaments than they do when they gamble, and others, visa-versa. Lassiter was a better money player than a tournament player.
So, put those two facts together, add in his longevity at the top (30+ years) and I can make a very strong case for him. This of course does not take into consideration his 4 outright World 14.1 Championships, PLUS 5 14.1 Championships at Johnson City, 5 World All-Around Championships and 1 World 1 Pocket Championship and you have a very gifted player indeed.
As for Strickland, I call him the greatest tournament 9 baller since Lassiter and he may in fact be Lassiter's equal at TOURNAMENT 9 ball. His 6 World Championships and 5 U.S. Open 9 Ball Championships is a record that I believe we will not see broken, ever. Look how hard it is for anyone to repeat or win those majors more than once. But Strickland, even though early in his career he did gamble at pool, at GAMBLING he was no match for Lassiter. So, you have two very special tournament players and one of them (Lassiter) also exceled at gambling 9 ball, so the edge, I believe, has to go to Lassiter.
As for Efren Reyes, he also has a special title. The greatest all around player to have ever played pocket billiards. He was a great 9 baller, but not "the GREATEST" and here is what I base that opinion on. In the two major championships at 9 Ball, Efren has 1 World 9 Ball Championship in 1999 and 1 U.S. Open 9 Ball Championship in 1994. Sigel has 5 WC and 3 US Open's, Varner has 3 WC and back-to-back US Open titles. Archer, Hall, Souquet and Allen Hopkins have combined major 9 ball titles greater than Reyes' 2. BUT, Reyes also has 6 World 8 Ball Championships, he is the greatest Rotation player ever, in my opinion the greatest 1 pocket player ever and he is super at 14.1. Overall, Reyes is better than Lassiter and Strickland, but not at 9 ball.
Consider this....Lassiter won 6 World 9 Ball Championships from the age of 44 till he was 53. He would have won how many more had there been 9 ball tournaments in the 2 previous decades. But there weren't any.
So, if he won 6 World Chamionships 20 years after his prime, what would he have been like from the 1940's to 1960's?
Compare that to Reyes, who has one (1) World 9 Ball Championship, in an era where for 10 plus years, there were 2 "World 9 Ball Championships" available every year! And Reyes has a total of 1. Lassiter, who didn't have tournaments to compete in until he was 44, still won 6 of them.
These are just MY opinions and many other fans and historians who love and study the game as much as I do may have differing opinions. But, once I collected all the info that I had on these great players, I feel very confident in my selections of who was better at what.
*******************************************************
Here's the thread where that came from for those who are interested in more info on Mr Lassiter.....
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=119233
Yeah, people only seem to believe something they've actually seen. What always struck me about Buddy's game was how easy he made it look. He just ran his racks in the simplest possible way, no unneccesary movement of the cueball, I would watch and think "I can do that, it looks so simple". I don't get that feeling watching a lot of other top players, they seem to make it look very difficult and complicated.
Terry, you make the case well for Lassiter. The reasons I struggle to proclaim him the best ever nine-baller are:
1. He played "one shot shootout", a game that magnified the edge he gained from being, arguably, the best ball pocketer that ever lived.
2. As strong as the fields were back in the day, when it comes to nine ball, the greatest tournament fields have been those of the more recent past. It's just plain scary how many great players you have to beat to win the major titles today.
Nonetheless, Irving Crane always spoke glowingly of Lassiter's nine ball prowess, calling him almost unbeatable in a cash game, and Irving's opinion, as you know, counts for a lot with me. Only a handful, Harold Worst among them, were even willing to play Lassiter for money at nine ball. It's likely that, relative to his peers, Lassiter was the best nine-baller ever.
I'm just not sure he deserves to be called the best ever.
Still, take a deep bow for a superb and informative post.
Yeah but Efren lost to Nick Varner in the race to 100 also.
I have no idea who is really tops as several had strengths that others did not have.
All the Players could run out.
Efren Reyes: Phenominal in every way except the break.
Buddy Hall: Position play was awesome.
Johnny Archer: Broke the balls better than most others.
Earl Strickland: No weaknesses other than the mental side.
Mike Sigel: Played all aspects great and had a great break.
Nick Varner: Ditto for Varner.
I saw these men in or near their prime and my vote for best 9-Ball player would probably have gone to Earl if he could have kept his attitude positive all the time. Only Archer had close to as powerful of a stroke as Earl and Earl would pull off thin long cut shots off that most of the rest would even try. Earl probably the best shot maker. Nick and Mike were probably the better safety players. Buddy would play position so sweet that it was awesome. And you could almost never trap Efren without him kicking and trapping you back. Efren also kept his cool and never let the mental side get to him.
If asked who I thought was the best 8-Ball player my vote without hesitation would go to Efren, but for 9-ball it is really a toss up among the above players.
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Buddy himself believes Lassiter to be the best ever. After watching Buddy play so many times and his perfect cue ball control when he was playing well, I would still have to go with Buddy as being the best.
The only x factor is the break. Buddy never had the best break. Strickland tortured his opponents with his breaking and making two balls and running out the final 7.
If breaks were alternated, I would make Buddy the favorite against anyone.
The only x factor is the break. Buddy never had the best break. Strickland tortured his opponents with his breaking and making two balls and running out the final 7.
If breaks were alternated, I would make Buddy the favorite against anyone.
Terry GREAT post!
Some one in an earlier post asked for a story about Luther, well here it is. In 1967, when I was 15 y/o, I worked at George Baker's Pool Hall in Fuquay Springs (now Fuquay Varina) NC on main street. THE REASON, I love this stupid game to the core is because....Luther would come to this small town specifically to play a local millionaires son ALL NIGHT for serious cash. My job was to rack these games all night and keep the table brushed/wiped down. I will never forget the demeanor of Lassiter, he was unflappable. Anyone that really knew him will tell you he was one of the nicest people, he had a great sense of humor, was a generous person and if asked would help anyone. To this day, I am glad I went to school the next day, tired or these memories would not be there.
Luther Lassiter was a great shot-maker and he made smart pattern choices. You did not see him hitting balls unless he absolutely needed to and he always was on the right side the ball to give the right angles to get to the next shot. His speed control was as solid as I have seen by anyone. Back then, what does a 15/16 y/o boy know, but it was a real life Hustler or Color of Money movie only back then there was no such thing.
During 67 to 1969, I personally saw a number of money matches that Luther played and I never saw him lose.
Some one in an earlier post asked for a story about Luther, well here it is. In 1967, when I was 15 y/o, I worked at George Baker's Pool Hall in Fuquay Springs (now Fuquay Varina) NC on main street. THE REASON, I love this stupid game to the core is because....Luther would come to this small town specifically to play a local millionaires son ALL NIGHT for serious cash. My job was to rack these games all night and keep the table brushed/wiped down. I will never forget the demeanor of Lassiter, he was unflappable. Anyone that really knew him will tell you he was one of the nicest people, he had a great sense of humor, was a generous person and if asked would help anyone. To this day, I am glad I went to school the next day, tired or these memories would not be there.
Luther Lassiter was a great shot-maker and he made smart pattern choices. You did not see him hitting balls unless he absolutely needed to and he always was on the right side the ball to give the right angles to get to the next shot. His speed control was as solid as I have seen by anyone. Back then, what does a 15/16 y/o boy know, but it was a real life Hustler or Color of Money movie only back then there was no such thing.
During 67 to 1969, I personally saw a number of money matches that Luther played and I never saw him lose.
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Best ever
I think I have to side with Terry on this (and thanks Terry for such good background info). It has not been mentioned that Lassiter had to shoot on equipment back then that most would complain about today.
Regarding Buddy, he stayed in the top 5 players for 21 consecutive years. That alone is an amazing accomplishment. His uptable down the rail shot was something to see in his prime, and would just make you shake your head in amazement.
When I think of Earl, I think of 'Poetry in motion'. I love the way he moves around the table, his pace, and his style. Earl and Sigel get my vote for best tournament players. Sigel won over 100 tournaments, and he won more 8 ball titles than 9 ball.
Best 9 baller is Lassiter, followed by Buddy and Earl, Johnny.
Best 9 ball tournament player is Earl, then my vote goes to Souquet.
Best 8 ball player is Efren then Sigel.
Best 14.1 is Mosconi, Caras, and Ervolina, Schmidt.
Best Rotation is Efren, hands down.
Best 1 Pocket player is Efren, again hands down.
Best all around player is Efren.
Best Bar Table players - Keith and Matlock.
I think I have to side with Terry on this (and thanks Terry for such good background info). It has not been mentioned that Lassiter had to shoot on equipment back then that most would complain about today.
Regarding Buddy, he stayed in the top 5 players for 21 consecutive years. That alone is an amazing accomplishment. His uptable down the rail shot was something to see in his prime, and would just make you shake your head in amazement.
When I think of Earl, I think of 'Poetry in motion'. I love the way he moves around the table, his pace, and his style. Earl and Sigel get my vote for best tournament players. Sigel won over 100 tournaments, and he won more 8 ball titles than 9 ball.
Best 9 baller is Lassiter, followed by Buddy and Earl, Johnny.
Best 9 ball tournament player is Earl, then my vote goes to Souquet.
Best 8 ball player is Efren then Sigel.
Best 14.1 is Mosconi, Caras, and Ervolina, Schmidt.
Best Rotation is Efren, hands down.
Best 1 Pocket player is Efren, again hands down.
Best all around player is Efren.
Best Bar Table players - Keith and Matlock.
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I think you are selling Sigel short. IMO he is up there among the best ever at both 9-ball and 14.1. And speaking of 14.1, where is Greenleaf and the Miz??
Prettyboy730
Livin' the Life!
Everyone on here is speculating, and expressing their opinions based on what they believe, which is what this thread originally asked for. But, how about including the opinions of the ones that we are calling the best. I believe if you ask the top 5 players that people have mentioned i.e. Buddy, Earl, Efren, Johnny, or Sigel, I believe the majority would say that Efren is the best overall player alive, and possibly ever. I am also willing to bet that if you leave this thread up for 10-15 more years, new names would grace the top, like Shane, Alex, Orcollo, or Wu. Alot of the candidates for "best ever" are still playing, and guess who is roasting all of them.....these young guns are. So, let time tell the story folks, and I think your only beginning to see truly great play, its only going to get better, so sit back, relax, and watch the players of the future blow our minds with amazing pool play. Thanks
Prettyboy730
Livin' the Life!
Everyone on here is speculating, and expressing their opinions based on what they believe, which is what this thread originally asked for. But, how about including the opinions of the ones that we are calling the best. I believe if you ask the top 5 players that people have mentioned i.e. Buddy, Earl, Efren, Johnny, or Sigel, I believe the majority would say that Efren is the best overall player alive, and possibly ever. I am also willing to bet that if you leave this thread up for 10-15 more years, new names would grace the top, like Shane, Alex, Orcollo, or Wu. Alot of the candidates for "best ever" are still playing, and guess who is roasting all of them.....these young guns are. So, let time tell the story folks, and I think your only beginning to see truly great play, its only going to get better, so sit back, relax, and watch the players of the future blow our minds with amazing pool play. Thanks
seriously?
You're joking right... the best pure passer ever... My IQ is well over 80...
You're joking right... the best pure passer ever... My IQ is well over 80...
Snapshot9; Best 14.1 is Mosconi said:
It is really not possible to compare eras. In every field of endeavor where records can be measured by time, length, weight, number, etc., today's athletes (for whatever reasons--training, nutrition, equipment, knowledge) are superior. Just look at olympic records. Where results can be quantified, old records don't hold up. Jesse Owens' long/broadjump 1935 record was one of the longest lasting and many said it would never be broken and it wasn't until 1960, but now the current record is almost 3 feet longer.
Swimming, shot put, speed skating, marksmanship, weightlifting, the list goes on and on. It is just the way performance evolves, always for the better in the long run. You might find an exception or two along the way but the overwhelming majority of those are unique situations. For example the 100 yard dash is no longer run, it is the 100 meter dash, or Mosconi’s 526 ball run with clay balls on an 8-foot table with buckets for pockets playing a game that is not very popular today.
Lassiter WAS the best in his time and that’s really all that can be said, IMO.
Efren said the same thing about Sigel.
That would be one helluva lineup. Murderer's Row, part deux.
carmenbasilio
Registered
I think Parica, Strickland, McCready, Hall, Archer. But probably the Best is Strickland.