Should there be 'seeded' draws?

[JustPlay]

In a word, yes.

I just think that it is a shame to have top pros, most of whom can't barely make a living at the game with the structure as it is, knock each other out in the first couple of rounds. IMO it should be like the tennis structure so that the best players, if they win the early rounds, meet up with progressively stronger competition as they go along. That way 'seeded' players won't play each other until the 4th round or later in a field of 128 or so. It's not like local talent is a total walkover. We all know there are super strong players from off the tour all over the country.

I guess my main bias is that the pros SHOULD be in the money with this kind of format if they're playing well. It feeds them and their families, it gives a reason for them to play in the supporting events, to maintain high standards of conduct, allows for earned entry from qualifiers, and overall gives a better reason for the best to be out competing and promoting the sport. If that happens, maybe some beer or cola, etc. sponsors will sign on and take us back to a higher level of recognition in sports.

Any other views are great.... I just saw Mika playing Thorsten, and Johnny playing Shane in the second round and thought to myself... what a waste. From a promoters view I would think it's best to have the "best" represented well throughout the entire tourney. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know.

td

So, if you are winning against a "pro" in the US 9-ball open and are about to finish the set off, get into the money and the "pro" gets sent him home with no money are you going to dog the money ball, lay down the rest of the set and let the "pro" win, because he has to feed his family?

Lets say your $600.00 dollar entry fee gets you to the first round and the 'pros' free entry (previous champion gets free entry into event) gets him 4free rounds and entry into the money without even hitting a ball. How do you feel about that? It would be like letting Tiger Woods play only on Sunday if tournaments started seeding certain players!

I am not trying to poke you with a stick, I respect your thoughts on the subject. Just making a point. There are some "special events" for "pros" only and the majority of the tournaments are for "pro's" and every other pool player. By the majority of tournys entered by non-pros, this makes up the bulk of the prize funds and profits by room owners, promoters and hotel owners as well.

The best player will always win PERIOD!!

 

[pocketspeed]

In a word, yes.

I just think that it is a shame to have top pros, most of whom can't barely make a living at the game with the structure as it is, knock each other out in the first couple of rounds. IMO it should be like the tennis structure so that the best players, if they win the early rounds, meet up with progressively stronger competition as they go along. That way 'seeded' players won't play each other until the 4th round or later in a field of 128 or so. It's not like local talent is a total walkover. We all know there are super strong players from off the tour all over the country.

I guess my main bias is that the pros SHOULD be in the money with this kind of format if they're playing well. It feeds them and their families, it gives a reason for them to play in the supporting events, to maintain high standards of conduct, allows for earned entry from qualifiers, and overall gives a better reason for the best to be out competing and promoting the sport. If that happens, maybe some beer or cola, etc. sponsors will sign on and take us back to a higher level of recognition in sports.

Any other views are great.... I just saw Mika playing Thorsten, and Johnny playing Shane in the second round and thought to myself... what a waste. From a promoters view I would think it's best to have the "best" represented well throughout the entire tourney. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know.

td

sorry grindz i am going to have to respectfully disagree with you. pool tournaments are not charities for "pro" players. play your best, random draw. as a fan watching i want to see key match-ups in the early rounds. i dont know want to watch a pro run over a local player. one year at ts i watched JA run over some poor gent who has prolly passed on now who had to play with a oxygen tank strapped to his back. it took johnny about 32 minutes to win. i would have much rather watched JA take on another top pro. also if a pro gets knocked to the B side then there is the drama of watching him struggle back.

brian

 

[branpureza]

There should absolutely be seeded draws... anyone can earn the right to be seeded if they put enough time and effort into becoming a great player. It also makes for a better tournament. I think it would be more unfair for a b player to cruise through a whole bracket of similar players while a pro goes 2 and out because his draw was filled with champions. Seeding weeds these weaker players out and makes the results more predictable according to skill level. Most people who claim seeding to be unfair are undeserving of it in the first place. Practice and get better...

 

[houmatroy]

Every situation is different !

If it's a large tourney with a big calcutta then I say yes to the top 4 being seeded..It's proven that the calcutta's are usually larger when done this way..No calcutta no seeding...JMO:shrug:

 

[pocketspeed]

There should absolutely be seeded draws... anyone can earn the right to be seeded if they put enough time and effort into becoming a great player. It also makes for a better tournament. I think it would be more unfair for a b player to cruise through a whole bracket of similar players while a pro goes 2 and out because his draw was filled with champions. Seeding weeds these weaker players out and makes the results more predictable according to skill level. Most people who claim seeding to be unfair are undeserving of it in the first place. Practice and get better...

i have to completely disagree here. if youre gonna "protect" the pros from having to play each other in the early rounds, then why bother having a 128 player open field? why not just take the top 4 "seeds" and let them battle it out for the money. be a lot quicker that way. the pro player already enjoys an advantage over the "b" player in terms of skill and prolly experience. just how much of an advantage should the pros get? pros should have to take the same chance as everyone else in the draw. how is it fairer for the "b" player to have to play JA in the first round while he is "protected" from having to face Mika in the first round?

brian

 

[grindz]

So, if you are winning against a "pro" in the US 9-ball open and are about to finish the set off, get into the money and the "pro" gets sent him home with no money are you going to dog the money ball, lay down the rest of the set and let the "pro" win, because he has to feed his family?

Lets say your $600.00 dollar entry fee gets you to the first round and the 'pros' free entry (previous champion gets free entry into event) gets him 4free rounds and entry into the money without even hitting a ball. How do you feel about that? It would be like letting Tiger Woods play only on Sunday if tournaments started seeding certain players!

I am not trying to poke you with a stick, I respect your thoughts on the subject. Just making a point. There are some "special events" for "pros" only and the majority of the tournaments are for "pro's" and every other pool player. By the majority of tournys entered by non-pros, this makes up the bulk of the prize funds and profits by room owners, promoters and hotel owners as well.

The best player will always win PERIOD!!

Well.... in your hypothetical situation that I will never find myself in, but it sounds like there are quite a few on here that are there.... NO ONE is going to give anyone anything. Every player still has to earn every match they play and isn't guaranteed a win. I would think anyone who is at a level to compete with open players is good enough to string a half set to a set of nine ball in a short race to single digits, 8 ball the same. There are NO gimmies.

Anyway, I'm NOT trying to stir up a cloud here. I was just wondering why it wouldn't work, and if it was in place would it help or hurt the game in general. My view must be skewed toward it, because I see win win all over the place and many respondants see a lose. My thoughts are primarily to the open tourneys where the pros are, and not lower than that.

It seems like this probably will devolve into a chicken or the egg kind of thing, but I see it as a win win kind of thing. Maybe my glasses are rose colored... although no one ever accused me of that b4 .... but I see it as being better for the promoters, fans, and trickle down effect through prize money, more tourneys, more responsibilities lain upon the pros (and thus more benefits), possible 'feeder' tourneys (like the womens tour has, and/or poker)... and it goes on and on. I also like a lot of interesting gimmicks involved like bounties for the lower player, not enough to encourage dishonesty by anyone, but enough to get players in. The sky is the limit, if you think outside the box.

I do like to hear all the viewpoints and I just hoped to have a discussion that someone who promotes may see, and perhaps influence things for the better in the future. Thanks for all of your responses.

td

 

[grindz]

i have to completely disagree here. if youre gonna "protect" the pros from having to play each other in the early rounds, then why bother having a 128 player open field? why not just take the top 4 "seeds" and let them battle it out for the money. be a lot quicker that way. the pro player already enjoys an advantage over the "b" player in terms of skill and prolly experience. just how much of an advantage should the pros get? pros should have to take the same chance as everyone else in the draw. how is it fairer for the "b" player to have to play JA in the first round while he is "protected" from having to face Mika in the first round?

brian

I'm curious Brian, what % of "b" players (although I'm not sure there are many "b" players at this level) would you think would WANT to get in if there was a better chance of playing JA or a pro the first round? On the other side, what % do you think would rather battle with and slide by, or lose to another (probably local) "b" player who they've probably run into many times in the past.

I see your side. I just don't see that there are many "b" players (or thereabouts) that EXPECT to win it all in this kind of field. I would expect there are plenty of young guns (or old ones :smile that want to play JA or the pro that first round instead of Joe Shmoe.... and if they do win that first round, they may have a few "easy" (tongue in cheek) rounds before hitting the next pro in the 3rd or 4th rounds..if the other seeds hold up. I also really like the idea of a prize, cash or otherwise (maybe a session with a pro, a cue, free entry,......) as incentive for the lower player.

What do you think? Am I nuts? :smile:

td

 

[pocketspeed]

I'm curious Brian, what % of "b" players (although I'm not sure there are many "b" players at this level) would you think would WANT to get in if there was a better chance of playing JA or a pro the first round? On the other side, what % do you think would rather battle with and slide by, or lose to another (probably local) "b" player who they've probably run into many times in the past.

I see your side. I just don't see that there are many "b" players (or thereabouts) that EXPECT to win it all in this kind of field. I would expect there are plenty of young guns (or old ones :smile that want to play JA or the pro that first round instead of Joe Shmoe.... and if they do win that first round, they may have a few "easy" (tongue in cheek) rounds before hitting the next pro in the 3rd or 4th rounds..if the other seeds hold up. I also really like the idea of a prize, cash or otherwise (maybe a session with a pro, a cue, free entry,......) as incentive for the lower player.

What do you think? Am I nuts? :smile:

td

i'm gonna say a little on the nuts side

take ts for example. 128 man open field. pay your entry and play. lots of not just pros but top tier pros. however most of that field is made up of locals who may play about "b" level but are not gonna be huge favorites to win. however i bet that doesnt stop them from wanting to win. or maybe play deep enough to cash. Hmmmm lets see paid $200 entry for tourny...cash while playing the guys i always play on the joss tour, or get have the privelege of getting stomped by JA, Mika, Ralf... wow thats tough call right there.

also if you look at the final 8 for this tourny it doesnt look like seeding was really necessary for the cream to rise to the top.

brian

 

[cardiac kid]

I'm curious Brian, what % of "b" players (although I'm not sure there are many "b" players at this level) would you think would WANT to get in if there was a better chance of playing JA or a pro the first round? On the other side, what % do you think would rather battle with and slide by, or lose to another (probably local) "b" player who they've probably run into many times in the past.

I see your side. I just don't see that there are many "b" players (or thereabouts) that EXPECT to win it all in this kind of field. I would expect there are plenty of young guns (or old ones :smile that want to play JA or the pro that first round instead of Joe Shmoe.... and if they do win that first round, they may have a few "easy" (tongue in cheek) rounds before hitting the next pro in the 3rd or 4th rounds..if the other seeds hold up. I also really like the idea of a prize, cash or otherwise (maybe a session with a pro, a cue, free entry,......) as incentive for the lower player.

What do you think? Am I nuts? :smile:

td

Grindz,

Here are a few facts. This past summer, I played at the Stone. Entry fee $150. Three nights at the Turning Stone @ $120 per. You have to eat for three days $100. Fuel and tolls to and from Rochester $50. My guess is, I'm the average entrant. Was fortunate enough to cash again. I've played most top pro's at one time or another. Really don't care. Still play the balls on the table instead of my opponent. Do I realistically have a chance to win it all? In my dreams I guess but there is always a chance.

Mike has filled every TS event. He is doing something right. If the "pro's" hadn't screwed up most all the past tours, they wouldn't be in this predicament. I'm just tired of the constant crying about the money. Perhaps our top players should move to Europe or the Far East. Lot's of big money events over there! The players from over there don't seem to have a problem coming here.

Lyn

 

[grindz]

Grindz,

Here are a few facts. This past summer, I played at the Stone. Entry fee $150. Three nights at the Turning Stone @ $120 per. You have to eat for three days $100. Fuel and tolls to and from Rochester $50. My guess is, I'm the average entrant. Was fortunate enough to cash again. I've played most top pro's at one time or another. Really don't care. Still play the balls on the table instead of my opponent. Do I realistically have a chance to win it all? In my dreams I guess but there is always a chance.

Mike has filled every TS event. He is doing something right. If the "pro's" hadn't screwed up most all the past tours, they wouldn't be in this predicament. I'm just tired of the constant crying about the money. Perhaps our top players should move to Europe or the Far East. Lot's of big money events over there! The players from over there don't seem to have a problem coming here.

Lyn

I hope this thread didn't sound like I was saying anything bad about TS. I would really like to see the promoters be the biggest winners in any event... and have that trickle down to all other factors.

This was an outstanding event & a great field. Congrats on your placing.
Thanks to the powers that be for the streams, on line brackets and the event.

td

 

[Bob Jewett]

After seeing four of the top 10 (arguably) players in the world be placed into combat in the second round of a 128 man field at T.S. this week, I just didn't get it. Why wouldn't a promoter want to have a 'seeded' draw? ...

In the US, we don't currently have a men's professional tour or any organization of men's pro tournaments. If we did, we would probably have a seeding system.

Here is what the pro 3-cushion situation is like....

There is a system for ranking points for all world-related events down to national championships. The current list is available at http://www.umb.org/sportbio/rangliste_ausgabe.php -- 11 events are included in the current ranking. Almost 1200 players are ranked, including 32 from the US.

The main pro tournaments are "WorldCups" which have a standard minimum prize fund of about $50,000. The top 12 players are seeded. In addition, there are 8 seeded "wildcard" players selected by the organizers and organizations. These "top 20" get some transportation assistance (typically $1300) and free hotel rooms, and start in the round of 32, which is single elimination. Entry fees for seeded players are 0. For players who play in the qualification rounds, it is about $150 max. The qualification rounds produce 12 players who, with the 20 seeded players, make up the 32-player field. 32nd place pays about $900, and the organizer must pay any withholding tax for all prizes.

If a seeded player doesn't play, he loses ranking points and eventually may lose his top-12 spot.

Without a seeding system and other support, few players could afford to play in these tournaments -- too risky for the available rewards. With the seeding system, organizers are guaranteed that 20 of the best players in the world will be at their tournaments.

 

[JustPlay]

Seeding players will just push away the other players not to enter the tourny. Like I stated it previously: It would be like Tiger Woods, Vj Singh and Phil Mickleson seeded to play on Sunday and not on Thrusday, like the rest of players. A tournament is just that a tournament to see who is the best for those days it is run.

You never know what players will show up. There should be no favoritism towards any player. The best player will ALWAYS win and get into the money.

 

[cardiac kid]

I hope this thread didn't sound like I was saying anything bad about TS. I would really like to see the promoters be the biggest winners in any event... and have that trickle down to all other factors.

This was an outstanding event & a great field. Congrats on your placing.
Thanks to the powers that be for the streams, on line brackets and the event.

td

Never thought that. No one grows without a light from the outside. For all the crap posted on AZ, there are a few tidbits of great insite sprinkled here and there. Hope the right people read the thread as well!

Lyn

 

[branpureza]

Seeding players will just push away the other players not to enter the tourny. Like I stated it previously: It would be like Tiger Woods, Vj Singh and Phil Mickleson seeded to play on Sunday and not on Thrusday, like the rest of players.

This comparison makes no sense at all.

You would have to compare it to something like tennis where players play each other one on one.

(Tennis is seeded by the way.)

 

[JustPlay]

This comparison makes no sense at all.

You would have to compare it to something like tennis where players play each other one on one.

(Tennis is seeded by the way.)

If you follow golf (not that I follow it much), everyone plays on thrusday and friday to make the CUT to play on Saturday an Sunday. If you don't make final cut, your out. The weekend players, play on and get paid. Hence, Seeding the best players on the weekend and not during the begining of the Tournament would be an extreme advantage for them. Same scenairo for "pro" pool players. Now I am not comparing the game of golf to the game of pool. This is a hypathical situation to make a point.

In Tennis (your example), correct me if I am wrong, the seeding in tennis is based on their Professional ranking, and that EVERYONE playing is a PROFESSIONAL. These rankings are based on major and minor Professional events placings. Do I have this correct?

In pool the majority of touranments and tours are mostly comprised of amature players (skill level no included) with a few "pros" who show up to play as well. Seeding a "pro" in these events is too much of an advantage for them.

If pool were like tennis and consisted of only Professional players playing in Professional only tournaments and it had a actual professional ranking system, then seeding players may be the right thing to do, IF it were like tennis. But it is not, sad to say.

The only reason I use Pro Golf is that everyone, starts out the same in each tournament regardless of their world ranking. And these are Professional events where everyone has to have a professional tour card. And in the "Open" events, some amatures are invited to play based on their amature status.