Governing body of pool table mechanics

Look at ASE mechanics. There are tons of them. But how many of you trust somebody because they have a certification on the wall? I think for any certification to be held that means a damn, it would need to have some sort of accountablity attached. Meaning you have to perform at a certain level of your certification will be yanked. Now who is going to inspect this? The customers sure dont know if the job was average or World Class. Unfortunatley I think word of mouth is the only proven way to find out if someone is good. There just are too many certifications out there that dont mean anything, just a piece of paper on the wall.
 
I think a governbody is a waste of time.Now sell me on a multi layered course and the value and return.I don't care about a certificate.
 
IMO there's no reason other then logistics that competent billiard mechanics can't follow the lead of NIASE.
The main problem I see to overcome is educating the consumer to seek out a certified mechanic that not only
gets the job done but makes sure the table plays right.


"Until the early 1970s, consumers had no way to distinguish between incompetent and competent mechanics. In response to this need, the independent, non-profit National Institute for Automotive Service Excellence (ASE) was established in 1972.

ASE's mission is to improve the quality of vehicle repair and service through the testing and certification of repair and service professionals.

At present, about 400,000 professionals hold current certifications. They work in every segment of the automotive service industry: car and truck dealerships, independent garages, fleets, service stations, franchises, and more.

Here's how ASE certification works: Prospective candidates register for and take one or more of ASE's 40-plus exams. The tests are grouped into specialties for automobile, medium/heavy truck, truck equipment, school bus, and collision repair technicians as well as engine machinists, alternate fuels technicians, parts specialists, auto service consultants, and collision damage estimators.

Upon passing at least one exam and after providing proof of two years of relevant work experience, the test taker becomes ASE certified. Certification, however, is not for life. To remain certified, those with ASE credentials must be retested every five years.

Paper/Pencil tests are conducted twice a year at over 750 locations around the country and are administered by ACT, known for its academic and occupational testing programs. In addition, selected tests are offered in a computer-based testing (CBT) format at 200 sites for two five-week periods each year. The exams stress knowledge of job-related skills. The tests are no cinch to pass; approximately one out of three test takers fails.

Motorists benefit from ASE certification. It is a valuable yardstick by which to measure the knowledge and skills of individual technicians as well as the commitment to quality of the repair facility employing ASE-Certified professionals."
 
I'm all for it- where?

Logistically speaking breaking it down into regions would simplify things for the certification/re-certification.
Say LA or Vegas, Denver, Chicago, Atlanta, and New York were the test site locations by region, then it would be a matter of having someone able to be in those regions to do the testing, unless there are more people willing to travel to the location to run the test.
For example- if you are in Florida or Mississippi and want to go to Mark Gregory to get tested on sub-rail extensions, rail re-rubbers, and re-felting the table, you go to him and the test site.
If you're from the surrounding area you go to the one closest to you, and prove you can do the work and do it right.
Saves time and travel for everyone else, but kind of pigeon holes the area rep for the tests.
Less locations means more travel time for someone to get to the next site and still maintain their business.

Initially though we need to find one or two locations to build from.
If we could get the big three of billiards involved, then I would say locate the site(s) with the table manufacturers.
Don't come to the table to learn and get a certificate, that's what seminars and training is for...... come with your knowledge and get tested on your ability to fulfill the requirements.
And then maintain the standards established by the organization. I'd say once a year would be sufficient once you prove what you can do.
But how often throughout the year should the doors be open for testing?

shrug....
 
Dartman said:
IMO there's no reason other then logistics that competent billiard mechanics can't follow the lead of NIASE.
The main problem I see to overcome is educating the consumer to seek out a certified mechanic that not only
gets the job done but makes sure the table plays right.


"Until the early 1970s, consumers had no way to distinguish between incompetent and competent mechanics. In response to this need, the independent, non-profit National Institute for Automotive Service Excellence (ASE) was established in 1972.

ASE's mission is to improve the quality of vehicle repair and service through the testing and certification of repair and service professionals.

At present, about 400,000 professionals hold current certifications. They work in every segment of the automotive service industry: car and truck dealerships, independent garages, fleets, service stations, franchises, and more.

Here's how ASE certification works: Prospective candidates register for and take one or more of ASE's 40-plus exams. The tests are grouped into specialties for automobile, medium/heavy truck, truck equipment, school bus, and collision repair technicians as well as engine machinists, alternate fuels technicians, parts specialists, auto service consultants, and collision damage estimators.

Upon passing at least one exam and after providing proof of two years of relevant work experience, the test taker becomes ASE certified. Certification, however, is not for life. To remain certified, those with ASE credentials must be retested every five years.

Paper/Pencil tests are conducted twice a year at over 750 locations around the country and are administered by ACT, known for its academic and occupational testing programs. In addition, selected tests are offered in a computer-based testing (CBT) format at 200 sites for two five-week periods each year. The exams stress knowledge of job-related skills. The tests are no cinch to pass; approximately one out of three test takers fails.

Motorists benefit from ASE certification. It is a valuable yardstick by which to measure the knowledge and skills of individual technicians as well as the commitment to quality of the repair facility employing ASE-Certified professionals."
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Great info! Oversight is always the key. I can see how the Brunswick so called certification has left a bad taste for some people. I have met hacks with certifications. I am also a Brunswick mechanic, I took the course after i had been a mechanic for 9 years. Brunswick requires it to work for their retailers. The course is weak but we could do better.
 
Mechanic Certification/Organization

Thank you for all the comments, both for and against establishing a governing body for table mechanics. As it stands I am a fairly competent installer, but this is not where I see myself in five years. Mostly, I am looking to take care of the weird and difficult repairs outside of the usual installer/mechanic call of duty. Among these, my plans in the bigger picture of this organization is to take creative concepts and translate them into new practices and tools to be used by the certified mechanics around the world.

Some things (many previously mentioned) that are hurting people already (full time) in the business of pool table repair and installation.

1) Company manufacturing tables has little appreciation for those of us who keep them selling tables. Both money and respect need to be earned from both sides.
2) Low bidder wars only keep hacks alive, where is Dr K when you need him. We all know mechanics who are only away week from living in a box. We need to keep as many jobs as possible within the organization, and let the remaining part time mechanics fight for the uninformed consumer.
3) Certification only shows that the mechanic has the basic knowledge to complete the job, but the real value just as a college education is not from having a little more information or skills. It shows a customer that you are invested in the business and you have the drive to see a job through.
4) The gap between the hack and the mechanic is growing, this means not just teaching a standardized way to level a set of slate. It means a uniform front of good business practices and professionalism. This means more investment... a uniform or at least company tee shirts, a logo'd vehicle, prompt email and phone message response. This all makes you look that much more worthy of the increased rate to the average person. Dress for the work, we make good money doing this why not at least invest $1k a year in professional business cards and shirts.
5) Don't be afraid to turn work down as soon as a customer tries to negotiate the price. This is basic economics, we need to maintain a baseline price regionally. A great example is a damned good mechanic/businessman who posts on here; when the customer tries to get a lower price, he goes the other way! You know who I am talking about Pat. If someone wants top service he is going to pay top rate. If I don't lose 20% of my quote requests because I am too expensive, then I am obviously priced too low. The difference between a hack and not goes a lot further than the work alone. The hack is a way of life.

Just a couple thoughts... let me know what you think
Rob
 
NoBull9 said:
I think a governbody is a waste of time.Now sell me on a multi layered course and the value and return.I don't care about a certificate.
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No disrespect, but I should not have to sell anything that trys to better the industry. If this does not interest you I understand. But it is a positive thing that is trying to be established. It is a work in progress and needs alot of time and patience. I disagree that a united group of mechanics is a waste of time. There is much power in numbers.
 
TableTek said:
Thank you for all the comments, both for and against establishing a governing body for table mechanics. ...
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Just a point of clarification -
I think "association of mechanics" rather then "governing body" may be the better way to look at this movement.

The scope of this type of association would cover all types of tables and reach well beyond the number of table owners represented on AZB. There are thousands upon thousands of tables out there sitting in homes where the sole purpose is family fun. These people are not anal about 4.5" pockets but just want the table to play right. There are also some who would want a more competitive setup so knowledge of table modifications as well better quality table parts availability is also necessary.
 
Dartman said:
Just a point of clarification -
I think "association of mechanics" rather then "governing body" may be the better way to look at this movement.

The scope of this type of association would cover all types of tables and reach well beyond the number of table owners represented on AZB. There are thousands upon thousands of tables out there sitting in homes where the sole purpose is family fun. These people are not anal about 4.5" pockets but just want the table to play right. There are also some who would want a more competitive setup so knowledge of table modifications as well better quality table parts availability is also necessary.
Click to expand...

Very good point.. American Billiards Installers Association
 
QuickEdward said:
The idea is to REDUCE the number of mechanics. I'm a mechanic. In my metropolitan area (population 1.5 million) there might be be six or eight people that really know what they're doing. There are another 20 table butchers. To John Q. Customer we're all the same - some of the hacks even have much better websites than the legit guys.

If there were a certification program that
A. There was a cost for
B. Included the requirement of proof of a business license and insurance
C. Required that a mechanic/installer demonstrate their skills
then explain how in the world that could be bad for me?



When I fix a hack job I look at it like this... There were two jobs performed - the bad one the hack got paid for, and the good one I'm going to do. I only got one of those jobs. I would rather get both. (remember - most of the time we see the hack jobs not because we were called out to correct their work, but because we were called out to move or recover the table)

The idea that hacks are doing us a favor by "creating" work for us by butchering tables just doesn't hold water. For every repair job I get that is expressly to fix a problem created by these rogue installers there are six other move and recover jobs I lose because they're charging 150 bucks for a move or 175 for a recover.
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This is an excellent post. What we do not need is to create more competition. I don't believe we should be training any old Tom, Dick and Harry to become mechanics. I have enough of them around New Jersey. We need to make ourselves standout and be able to let the consumer know we are held to a higher standard.
 
Governbody for pool involves politics we all know to well what that means.Now a good course with a step program.Offering levels of training I think could benefit and become an asset to dealers.A certificate can work but the installers are not whom haft to buy into it.
 
NoBull9 said:
Governbody for pool involves politics we all know to well what that means.Now a good course with a step program.Offering levels of training I think could benefit and become an asset to dealers.A certificate can work but the installers are not whom haft to buy into it.
Click to expand...

It's the consumer that needs to buy into it and insist on a certified mechanic/installer/technician.
The consumer would be the person that needs a recover, a move, a custom modification or a refit to fix what a hack or
incompetent dealers employee screwed up.
 
That time of the night to put in my .1/2 worth lol

Credibility.
That's what it all boils down to.
Without establishing the proper credibility, and then getting the exposure out there for the millions of table owners, and educating them on the differences, only the educated will know the difference.
Starting with a small select group will work for a bit, but there are entirely too many butchered tables out there that will never be seen or done correctly because there's no way to get to them all.
If we don't have something to lead the way by example, and have someone actually accountable for the work that people will recognize, then when are we going to be taken seriously?
Licensed, bonded and insured goes a long way, some of that is simple to resolve, but how many people out there take into consideration that the hacks they hire are a potential danger to their property?
Most of them just think about having someone come and make it pretty for their friends again.
It's not just banding together to help improve the standards of our industry, it's going to require alot of marketing, educating, and proving the difference between good and good enough.
I've run into quite a few places in Texas that have been paying $100 a table for recovers, don't get a halfway decent level, and 90% of them don't play anywhere near good.
Getting them around that dollar amount is the biggest challenge, once they've seen the work involved in getting things up to par they never stop being a customer.
I look at it as every person that ever comes near that table is a potential table owner, and this is my advertisement right under their eyes and hands.
Word of mouth is a great way to get the good jobs, but how do we reach all those people that aren't around to hear it?
I've never made a secret that I'm fully behind the idea behind the union/association, but I think it's going to take alot of phone calls, emails, and meetings to get things set fully into motion.
I know some of you have been doing that legwork, and that alot of progress is being made, and I'm feeling kind of guilty for not promoting it enough.....
But around here, there's not enough to promote it to!
I like the "bring what you got to the table and prove it" for the basics approach, the possibilities of future seminars to teach better ways of doing things, and the mechanics gathering and some of the bigger events, which I think will help with the marketing quite a bit, and get the attention of the rest of the billiards world.
So, where do we go from here.....
How do we establish the When, Where, and What's to get things flowing in the right direction?
Is there a board or a mutual cooperation?
And when do we start the certification?
How many different types of tables are going to be required to get started?
Separate areas for Billiards and snooker tables? Novelty tables?
Since most of us use the same vendors for most things, I'm sure it won't be difficult to get them on board, but I think we all know which ones are going to be a bit tougher.
But regardless of which way we progress, I'm just glad to see that there is enough support to get this thing rolling, and going from the names I've heard, it's going to be done well and right.
For the members, by the members..... sounds like a catchy logo....lol (almost as good as my "making a difference one table at a time"):wink:
Keep the idea flowing guys, I think it's going to start snowballing into something good here alot quicker than many anticipate-
 
Ideas?

Very good points Cuephoric, have to say I agree completely there. Now what can we do for the next seminar that will get us more in tune with the manufacturers?

Why not invite a rep from every major table brand to come? If they could arrange a current table to be with them, that could make for an interesting q&a session. We could establish the force this is becoming, but it would have to be a little more organized than last time so we are taken seriously. Imagine getting 30 national installers signed up with every major brand all at the same time? Now as we grow, we are not as much of a threat to the bottom line of these companies (maybe even be independent contractors...) now that will benefit both sides.

While I am thinking about it, wouldn't it be foolish to only deal with one manufacturer for the cert process? Nothing makes for innovation like competition. Lets get these companies competing for our approval right off the bat, though it would probably be ideal to remain neutral.

I do really like what Diamond is doing with the tables, however just as a quick example, I have been waiting for literature so I can start selling tables for almost 5 months now. After 4 calls and repeated messages, I am wondering how I would deal with this disorganization if they do get any bigger.

Comments>?
Rob
 
Why do you need to involve the manufacturers with the certification process.I for one think you guys like Glen and Gregory should sale there service of training to dealers and travel the country.
 
union

All this talk is a rerun of a previous thread posted awhile back talking about a union...
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There is only a few manufactures that give a crap.
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the manufacture that is listening and working with us can be counted on 1 finger....it took long time of glen drilling it to diamond to get em to say ok I will listen...good luck on getting all the rest of the companies that build tables on the same page together willing to listen....
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It all will come in time....
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Can I get a post from all the mechanics who showed in alsip....do u guys forget what glen talked about when he made his speach about mechanics when he got us all together in one spot?
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Robert Molina
 
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dontlitethat said:
All this talk is a rerun of a previous thread posted awhile back talking about a union...
-You can't mention something in passing and expect it to get rolling. If this is going to be done, it's got to be done right and with us all spread out around the country, it's going to take some rehashing to iron out the details. Most of us can't just go meet up at the local Starbucks and layout a strategy. This is something that is literally going to be nationwide, and probably watched and copied outside of the borders. The US isn't the only ones interested in our future.
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There is only a few manufactures that give a crap.
-Then we get started with those. The rest will have to get in line or fall by the wayside when they don't have the people needed to handle the jobs they are trying to get. Or be know as hack companies. either way, the ones on board will be standing out from the rest.

the manufacture that is listening and working with us can be counted on 1 finger....it took long time of glen drilling it to diamond to get em to say ok I will listen...good luck on getting all the rest of the companies that build tables on the same page together willing to listen....
-And I would expect nothing less of an effort to get with the rest of the companies. Diamond isn't afraid to set the standard. Brunswick obviously used to care, and although Billiards is only a small part of their business, I bet they'd like to have knowledge available to improve upon their business. With the changes in Olhausen, I would imagine that they would rather be towards the front and not in the middle of the pack,too.
It all will come in time....
I agree--
Can I get a post from all the mechanics who showed in alsip....do u guys forget what glen talked about when he made his speach about mechanics when he got us all together in one spot?
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Robert Molina
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I was working on the road and didn't get to Alsip, I'd love to hear more on that, especially more from Glen.
He's worked his butt off to get where he's at, he spoke- Diamond, Simonis, and Mechanics around the country perked up their ears and listened.
And got together for the first time, which is what really got the ball rolling, due to the fact that it's been long overdue, and it was based off of....credibility.
With all the guys on here, I'm kind of surprised there isn't more discussion and ideas thrown out there.
John?Glen? I know one of you wants to brings some ideas to the table. It's what we've always come to expect of you two!
If I'm getting pm's emails and phone calls about this thread, then I know everyone else is bound to be- which shows that more than the mechanics are interested in how things are going to shape up.
 
alsip

Anyone else besides me remember what he said about us mechanics who attended..?
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Robert molina
 
Cuephoric said:
...With all the guys on here, I'm kind of surprised there isn't more discussion and ideas thrown out there....
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I'd think there's a good amount of discussion going on off-forum.
Seems ABIA got the ball rolling and is gaining a following. My main question is who is the ABIA and what are their credentials.
Going along with that just who or whom is going to be doing the certifying. IMO it's all a step in a good direction but there's
a lot of unanswered questions.
 
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