Governing body of pool table mechanics

Ok, now we go through all the trouble and effort. Then we train guys. Then they pass the test. Then they(not all but some) still go out and do bad work. Just because someone passes the test doesn't mean they will follow the rules. So now there is even a bigger problem.

I would rather start an OTLB franchise and dictate the rules. Its maybe sort of like, selling hamburgs. There is a std but some are better than others. Like going out to eat, even a great chef overcooks now and then. BTW, yes I am cooked and well done.
 
OTLB said:
Ok, now we go through all the trouble and effort. Then we train guys. Then they pass the test. Then they(not all but some) still go out and do bad work. Just because someone passes the test doesn't mean they will follow the rules. So now there is even a bigger problem.

I would rather start an OTLB franchise and dictate the rules. Its maybe sort of like, selling hamburgs. There is a std but some are better than others. Like going out to eat, even a great chef overcooks now and then. BTW, yes I am cooked and well done.
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When the school of billiards tuition for a 6 month course runs $10,000...I don't believe we're going to be turning out hacks;) especially when the last 2 months is going to be spent in the field earning some of that tuition back, before you even leave the school "Certified"...as I've said before, this line of work will either make or break a mechanic, and no one will be able to BS their way through this school....period!

Glen
 
Maybe you should tell that to all the doctors in the world and not me. Not saying all doctors are bad but some are and they paid alot more than 10K.


Not saying they wouldn't learn but they still have to apply themselves later. Just because you get A's in school doesn't mean you get them later at work.

Like buying a franchise, a person has to put up something more substantial so if they fail it hurts.

I put up my name.
 
realkingcobra said:
When the school of billiards tuition for a 6 month course runs $10,000...I don't believe we're going to be turning out hacks;) especially when the last 2 months is going to be spent in the field earning some of that tuition back, before you even leave the school "Certified"...as I've said before, this line of work will either make or break a mechanic, and no one will be able to BS their way through this school....period!

Glen
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Just asking questions here...

Do you really think a 6 month 10k school is feasible? No offense, but I wouldn't invest either the time or the money for that.

90% of my income is derived from performing fairly easy tasks on fairly easy tables. While I would gladly spend a few hundred or maybe even a grand to spend a week or two honing the skills I have, learning a few new skills and having my talents evaluated by some expert mechanics, my family can't handle 10k worth of debt plus 6 months worth of lost income.

The idea of certified table mechanics will always be a pipe dream unless you make the program attractive to mechanics, manufacturers and retailers alike.
 
OTLB said:
Maybe you should tell that to all the doctors in the world and not me. Not saying all doctors are bad but some are and they paid alot more than 10K.

Not saying they wouldn't learn but they still have to apply themselves later. Just because you get A's in school doesn't mean you get them later at work.

Like buying a franchise, a person has to put up something more substantial so if they fail it hurts.

I put up my name.
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Doctors are "Board Certified". If they perform poorly, that certification can be pulled. If their certification is pulled, they end up lancing boils for people in Tijuana.

If you make "CERTIFIED" mean something.......well...then it will MEAN something.
 
QuickEdward said:
Just asking questions here...

Do you really think a 6 month 10k school is feasible? No offense, but I wouldn't invest either the time or the money for that.

90% of my income is derived from performing fairly easy tasks on fairly easy tables. While I would gladly spend a few hundred or maybe even a grand to spend a week or two honing the skills I have, learning a few new skills and having my talents evaluated by some expert mechanics, my family can't handle 10k worth of debt plus 6 months worth of lost income.

The idea of certified table mechanics will always be a pipe dream unless you make the program attractive to mechanics, manufacturers and retailers alike.
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The amount of business I would lose in 6 months would be astronomical. I could understand a few weeks, maybe, but 6 months. Maybe for someone learning from scratch, and I don't think schooling is the way to go to learn it.

I don't mind breaking mechanics Glen. But I don't think we need to make anymore either. For example, I'm sure you know the amount of "mechanics" in Phoenix, it's insane. So much so I have seen the ridiculously low prices they charge for service, that's because there are way to many each shave a few bucks off. Soon enough a table move will be $85.
 
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The std for being a doctor is not even close to what we are talking about. Perhaps I should have used another comparison but my point is still the same. Just because you get some piece of paper saying you passed this or that doesn't mean you will do a good job, only that you know how.

I will stick with Doctors. Some do this, some do that. NOT a single one does it all. Some doctors go to Harvard, some go to a weaker college perhaps. Perhaps someone gets this thing going and guess what, someone else comes out and says they have developed a better one.
 
OTLB said:
The std for being a doctor is not even close to what we are talking about. Perhaps I should have used another comparison but my point is still the same. Just because you get some piece of paper saying you passed this or that doesn't mean you will do a good job, only that you know how.

I will stick with Doctors. Some do this, some do that. NOT a single one does it all. Some doctors go to Harvard, some go to a weaker college perhaps. Perhaps someone gets this thing going and guess what, someone else comes out and says they have developed a better one.
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You're absolutely right about doctors. But guess what. There isn't anyone on craigslist offering to do an appendectomy in your living room for 225 bucks. (There are offers in the "casual encounters" section offering gynecological services, but that's a different issue).

What we're talking about here are two different issues - one is training - and one is certification. When it comes to being a mechanic, nothing will ever take the place of good ol' fashioned experience along with the oversight of a more knowledgeable mechanic. I'm more interested in the "certification" aspect of it. Yes, some people will exhibit the skills to gain certification and slip right back into doing hack work. That will always happen in every profession. As you said, it happens with doctors, but the answer isn't to scrap their certification process.

Although I hate to quote Obama, he said a few weeks ago "Don't make perfection the enemy of progress." I think that quote is applicable to what we're talking about.
 
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Training is easy. If someone shows you a shortcut or trick, bam you got it. Chris is 100% right. Start to market vids etc and there will be 10 times the guys doing it as there is now. Plus there will be lots of DIY's.

PS I don't look on craigslist for Doctors.
 
Ok. First off I'll get this out of the way. I am in NO way a table mech. or installer. When I get the table I want, I'll have Cuephoric over for the install, BUT I am a business person so here's my two cents (if this topic is supposed to be limited to table mech. and such, just let me know and I'll happily remove this response or suggestion)

Do any of you REALLY believe that everyone who is a seasoned table tech. gives away all their knowledge when it took them years of sweat and tears to get it? I don't and it's purely a business decision. I will share my knowlegde of what I do to a degree, but other than that you're going to have to pay for the rest just as RKC is doing with his table install cd. He's marketing his ideas and selling experience along with his new and improved glue and his glue only method and marketing it as a way of standardizing the industry. Even RKC said in one of his past posts that even he wouldn't give away all his secrets for free as that would take away business ($) from him as well as other table techs. Does that seem harsh? No that's business! Damn brilliant as a business man. My compliments.

OTLB, you may seem to have some off the wall ideas to others sometimes, but everyone needs to think outside the box and if just 1 in a 1000 times you come up with something that works then that's 999 more tries than most people. This forum wouldn't be the same without you. Some of the things you come up with are refreshing at least to me but again I'm not a table tech. Keep up the good work and posts.

On another note. I know of too many people who thought they and they alone knew of the best way to do something only to find that to be their undoing. You may think and get the majority of other people to think there is no better way to do something only to have one or two others quietly laughing behind your back ready to blow you out the water at your peak. Until everyone shares ALL their knowledge can everyone judge a certain method to be best practice and I can assure you that it has already been stated in this forum time and time again that that just isn't going to happen.

My observation in standardizing table installs to any degree is this. IF you are among the best, why would you want to give damn near anyone the opportunity to be certified knowing that it could potentially take $ out of your pocket? How? Think about it. When you fix up someone else's hack job and show the customer (whether they are a avid player or not) what you did as opposed to what they previously did, it makes YOU look good and as anyone knows, word of mouth is the best advertisement. The only advantage to having everyone certified would be maybe cut down on the hack jobs ya'll seem to encounter more and more. Is that more important to you than making yourself look good and having steady work? I myself would rather correct some else's mistakes and point them out to a newe customer than give my opposition a chance to compete with me. I'm in a service driven industry and I like to outshine the opposition.

I know that last remark isn't what most people if anyone wanted to hear but it's my take on standardization for table techs. It's not a safety issue so I can't see it driven from that perspective. I would however as a table dealer prefer to have someone with somekind of cerftification install the tables I sell just for one reason. A certification to me then would mean that that person showed enough initiative to better himself and initiative is a quality not readily found these days.

Sorry about the long post and remember, it's purely a business view and perspective, not as a table tech/mech. perspective. Hope ya'll get more responses and again thanks for all the great reading. I enjoy this forum better than the rest here!
 
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QuickEdward said:
Just asking questions here...

Do you really think a 6 month 10k school is feasible? No offense, but I wouldn't invest either the time or the money for that.

90% of my income is derived from performing fairly easy tasks on fairly easy tables. While I would gladly spend a few hundred or maybe even a grand to spend a week or two honing the skills I have, learning a few new skills and having my talents evaluated by some expert mechanics, my family can't handle 10k worth of debt plus 6 months worth of lost income.

The idea of certified table mechanics will always be a pipe dream unless you make the program attractive to mechanics, manufacturers and retailers alike.
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I hear what you all are saying, but you have to understand a few things first. If you've been working as a mechanic for some time and want to take the skill level test to be certified, then by all means skip the schooling...and take the test. There are more countries filled with pool tables other than just the United States...so keep that in mind also. We're not talking about just "USA" mechanics attending this school, as there's 50 other pool playing countries on this planet. And believe me, I know that a school is not going to interest a hack, but it will interest a self-motivated individual into going to school to learn a trade to go back home with and start working. This is why part of the schooling will be taking place at the Diamond factory...what better way to teach how to install new cushion on rails than at a factory level! What better way to teach how to level tables, than at a factory level, what better way to teach how to move and set up Diamond tables than at the factory level?

Keep in mind guys, if all you see is the dirty window you're looking at, you miss the beauty of the view outside past the window;)

Like I said, I can't tell you guys everything that is going into this program, but I can till you that it will work sooner or later as y'all see.

Glen
 
bayoublaster400 said:
My observation in standardizing table installs to any degree is this. IF you are among the best, why would you want to give damn near anyone the opportunity to be certified knowing that it could potentially take $ out of your pocket?
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The idea is to REDUCE the number of mechanics. I'm a mechanic. In my metropolitan area (population 1.5 million) there might be be six or eight people that really know what they're doing. There are another 20 table butchers. To John Q. Customer we're all the same - some of the hacks even have much better websites than the legit guys.

If there were a certification program that
A. There was a cost for
B. Included the requirement of proof of a business license and insurance
C. Required that a mechanic/installer demonstrate their skills
then explain how in the world that could be bad for me?

The only advantage to having everyone certified would be maybe cut down on the hack jobs ya'll seem to encounter more and more. Is that more important to you than making yourself look good and having steady work? I myself would rather correct some else's mistakes and point them out to a newe customer than give my opposition a chance to compete with me. I'm in a service driven industry and I like to outshine the opposition.
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When I fix a hack job I look at it like this... There were two jobs performed - the bad one the hack got paid for, and the good one I'm going to do. I only got one of those jobs. I would rather get both. (remember - most of the time we see the hack jobs not because we were called out to correct their work, but because we were called out to move or recover the table)

The idea that hacks are doing us a favor by "creating" work for us by butchering tables just doesn't hold water. For every repair job I get that is expressly to fix a problem created by these rogue installers there are six other move and recover jobs I lose because they're charging 150 bucks for a move or 175 for a recover.
 
ChrisShanklin said:
I'm with you. I personally have no interest in installing new veneer on any table or installing formica. I think some facets are just above and beyond what we were really need governed.
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Hey Chris,

Let me clarify the post you are referring to. The tasks or services I was referring to weren't necessarily for inclusion in a certification of pool table mechanics.
They were for additional services that a mechanic could use from time to time. For example, I install and service lots of carom tables, John is very savvy with snooker tables, Glen is Glen, tremendous knowledge of the manufacturing process as well as table mechanics. The list goes on and on, my point is a Union or governing body would have access to the skills and expertise of the best people in the business to preform the tasks I was eluding to.

I've done business with a company that will strip and re-Formica a set of pool table rails for short money and they do a great job. This is an example of an asset that a mechanic hundreds of miles away could also benefit from. Now, a national Union makes a deal with this same company with a projection of 100 sets of rails a month rather than 2 sets, what happens to the price? It goes down.. Who benifits?...We all do. The same thing for restoration work, part replacement, woodworking and on and on.

Due to recent flooding in this area many pool tables have suffered water damage. Much of the repair and replacement work has gone to company's who's aim was simply to replace the table with a new one. Many times this was unnecessary and uncalled for. I've even seen the damaged tables for sale after the fact by the same guy's that were paid to remove them. That kind of deception and theft would not be possible if the insurance company's had a national resource such as the "Union" to direct repair and replacement work to.

My point is, that a Union or Governing body would do far more for our industry than just train and certify mechanics. In it's best form, I see it as a network of professional tradesmen with the resources to effect real change within our market place and beyond.

Jay
 
OTLB said:
So many facets of what we do, not sure this will work that easily. Some guys paint walls and some portraits. There are different levels of performance. I don't move bar tables so I am not certified. This is how guys will feel if you mandate that they have to do everything. That doesn't make any sense does it?
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John,

Doing and knowing how to do, are two different things. I may know how to move a bar table properly and choose not to do it. That's very different than doing it and not knowing how.

Jay

PS You really know how to get things going around here...:grin-square:
 
OTLB said:
Ok, now we go through all the trouble and effort. Then we train guys. Then they pass the test. Then they(not all but some) still go out and do bad work. Just because someone passes the test doesn't mean they will follow the rules. So now there is even a bigger problem.

I would rather start an OTLB franchise and dictate the rules. Its maybe sort of like, selling hamburgs. There is a std but some are better than others. Like going out to eat, even a great chef overcooks now and then. BTW, yes I am cooked and well done.
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John,

If every job included the following digital pictures.

1 The general assembly.
2 The bubble on the level in 9 positions on the slate.
3 The finished slate seams.
4 The bed cloth measurements and stretch lines.
5 The finished bed cloth showing finished stretch lines.
6 The pocket openings finished.
7 The rails tack strip finished sides and corners.
8 The finished table.

Not a perfect solution, but might go along ways toward getting a consistent finished product. Pictures to be forwarded to "Union" upon request for review.

Just a thought...:wave:
Jay
 
9 positions? I thought I needed 10

Oh and yes I have lots more in case your wondering, 6 inch ones, 9 inch ones 10 inch ones and more. I collect them but they are fun to play with.

Maybe I can certify tournament tables with these. I don't think anyone wants me to put them on a table they just did though.

I was at a tournament last year and couldn't get my digital level to even read 0.0
 

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hows this for a grid, self leveling rotary laser
 

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Laser level really don't work its better then water in shot glass but it dont work either. It took my friend 2 days with is laser and in 2 passes with a real level I showed him were it was wrong or failed.
 
OTLB said:
hows this for a grid, self leveling rotary laser
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Why do you get knocked for using this method to level a table? It looks like a great idea. What would be the downfalls to this method? Any?
 
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