Quantifying the Subjective

[danquixote]

Now that i have used the two largest words in my vocabulary for the title of this thread, let me offer up an idea. Maybe this has been done already??

We all see posts that refer to ...."The Hit"....or....The Feel....Often times this same question is posed in another manner....."what is the best cue?"..."who makes the best hitting cue??....and so on. All of these questions are inevitably answered ......try as many as possible and make a decision. So here is an idea. It will require possession or access to, a number of different cues that would span what is currently believed to be the best and the worst.....Rambow.....Cuetec for example. A number of B or better quality players would be blindfolded.....allowed to take warm up strokes.....and then a cue ball would be placed where as close to a center ball hit would take place as dictated by the warmup strokes. The players would never see the cue in question.....the aftermath of the hit would be a non factor.....We would be seeking the answer to one question only.....Which one felt better. Yes....it would still be subjective but I would be interested to see if the results would be as predictable as some would imagine.......would a die hard Tad user......find that the Cuetec felt better.......anyway....it would be nice if someone was able to do this.....Dan

 

[bobroberts]

Problem with that is a cues aesthetics comes into play.If you like the way your cue looks it can be a positive in playing.Its like when you feel you look good as opposed to looking sloppy.If you get my drift.

 

[danquixote]

Problem with that is a cues aesthetics comes into play.If you like the way your cue looks it can be a positive in playing.Its like when you feel you look good as opposed to looking sloppy.If you get my drift.

The blindfold would eliminate aesthetics from the equation.....and the answer would be predicated solely on the sense of touch. We all know that the number and quality of inlays have nothing to do with the "Feel of the Hit"

 

[Luxury]

This is an absolutely brilliant idea that should be done at many pool events.

It's like the Pepsi challenge.

You could do this but I think it would be best if you were able to make the cue unrecognizable so you didn't have to be blindfolded. That way you can see how draw shots feel and how the cue ball reacts when you are using english.

 

[dr_dave]

It think it would be better to ask how each cue is "different," and ask which cues and tips the player prefers, and why. Out of ten top players using the exact same cue with the exact same tip, five players might think the "hit" is the great, and the other five might think the "hit" is terrible. If you change the tip, the results might reverse. Another group of players might be indifferent with either tip (or with the same tip on different cues). I think you would need a very large number of players and a wide selection of cues and tips to come up with meaningful (if any) results.

"Hit" and "feel" really are subjective things, IMO.

Regards,
Dave

Now that i have used the two largest words in my vocabulary for the title of this thread, let me offer up an idea. Maybe this has been done already??

We all see posts that refer to ...."The Hit"....or....The Feel....Often times this same question is posed in another manner....."what is the best cue?"..."who makes the best hitting cue??....and so on. All of these questions are inevitably answered ......try as many as possible and make a decision. So here is an idea. It will require possession or access to, a number of different cues that would span what is currently believed to be the best and the worst.....Rambow.....Cuetec for example. A number of B or better quality players would be blindfolded.....allowed to take warm up strokes.....and then a cue ball would be placed where as close to a center ball hit would take place as dictated by the warmup strokes. The players would never see the cue in question.....the aftermath of the hit would be a non factor.....We would be seeking the answer to one question only.....Which one felt better. Yes....it would still be subjective but I would be interested to see if the results would be as predictable as some would imagine.......would a die hard Tad user......find that the Cuetec felt better.......anyway....it would be nice if someone was able to do this.....Dan

 

[danquixote]

It think it would be better to ask how each cue is "different," and ask which cues and tips the player prefers, and why. Out of ten top players using the exact same cue with the exact same tip, five players might think the "hit" is the great, and the other five might think the "hit" is terrible. If you change the tip, the results might reverse. Another group of players might be indifferent with either tip (or with the same tip on different cues). I think you would need a very large number of players and a wide selection of cues and tips to come up with meaningful (if any) results.

"Hit" and "feel" really are subjective things, IMO.

Regards,
Dave

I totally agree Dave.....It will all be subjective in the end. I know the many variables involved....tip....ferrule....shaft type....would have to be standardized for any meaningfull results to be obtained.....as well as considerable time. I was looking for "entertainment value" results.....rather than a dedicated scientific experiment......Though the latter would be a valuable undertaking IMO......Dan

 

[Siz]

...I think you would need a very large number of players and a wide selection of cues and tips to come up with meaningful (if any) results...."Hit" and "feel" really are subjective things, IMO.

Subjective, yes. But if anyone were prepared to do it, such an experiment might not be worthless.

With a well designed experiment, might you not be able to compare the distribution of 'preferred' cue/tips with the distribution of available cue/tips, and test the hypothesis that preference is just what you are used to?

 

[dr_dave]

I think you would need a very large number of players and a wide selection of cues and tips to come up with meaningful (if any) results...."Hit" and "feel" really are subjective things, IMO.

Subjective, yes. But if anyone were prepared to do it, such an experiment might not be worthless.

With a well designed experiment, might you not be able to compare the distribution of 'preferred' cue/tips with the distribution of available cue/tips, and test the hypothesis that preference is just what you are used to?

Sounds good to me.

Dave

 

[danquixote]

Subjective, yes. But if anyone were prepared to do it, such an experiment might not be worthless.

With a well designed experiment, might you not be able to compare the distribution of 'preferred' cue/tips with the distribution of available cue/tips, and test the hypothesis that preference is just what you are used to?

No experiment is worthless, anything that increases our collective knowledge or provides us with some insight is welcome. I was just posing an interesting and possibly entertaining way of finding some insight. I think I know what conclusions will be derived from my suggested set up.....but the experiment could be conducted in whatever manner desired to achieve more detailed results.......The end results will depend on time and dedication........and now that Dr. Dave has taken an interest......why hell.....we may obtain the holy grail.....LOL.......I mean that in the most complimentary way. I admire your research and dedication to our sport.

 

[dr_dave]

and now that Dr. Dave has taken an interest......why hell.....we may obtain the holy grail.....LOL.......I mean that in the most complimentary way. I admire your research and dedication to our sport.

Actually, I took an interest in this many years ago, and I took some accelerometer measurements to try to quantitatively characterize the "hit and feel" of various cues. Quantitatively, "hit and feel" can be described by the amplitude of the initial impact shock, the main frequency of vibration after impact, and the rate of decay of the vibration amplitude after impact. I thought it would be cool if there were an industry-standard way of labeling cues with 3-4 numbers (and/or letters) that describe the natural pivot length and "hit and feel" of every cue. That way, if you know the numbers for your current cue, and wanted to buy a new cue, the numbers would help guide your decision.

Unfortunately, projects like this take money (for development of equipment, software, and procedures), lots of time, and industry "buy-in." Maybe one day, when I retire from my "day job," I will pursue this.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

I actually think this type of testing was done a few years back. There were some players that thought they could tell the difference between the joint materials on a cue - stainless, phenolic, ivory, wood. They did a blindfold test, and actually placed tape over the joint so no one could tell what material the joint was made from. The outcome of the test - the joint material didn't affect the hit of the cue.

Here's my take on quantifying the subjective - you can't. It's like trying to quantify why I like my steak medium rare, but my wife likes medium. It's all about personal preference. Some people like a bullwhip, some like a plank.

A tip can change the hit of a cue as well. I got my hands on a Rick Howard recently. It had Moori tips on it. The cue had the worst ping I had ever heard or felt. I changed the tips to Le Pro - the cue hit like gold. So, as much as this testing would be neat, the testing would come down to how well the tip and ferrule hit, unfortunately.

 

[stljohnny]

Actually, I took an interest in this many years ago, and I took some accelerometer measurements to try to quantitatively characterize the "hit and feel" of various cues. Quantitatively, "hit and feel" can be described by the amplitude of the initial impact shock, the main frequency of vibration after impact, and the rate of decay of the vibration amplitude after impact. I thought it would be cool if there were an industry-standard way of labeling cues with 3-4 numbers (and/or letters) that describe the natural pivot length and "hit and feel" of every cue. That way, if you know the numbers for your current cue, and wanted to buy a new cue, the numbers would help guide your decision.

Unfortunately, projects like this take money (for development of equipment, software, and procedures), lots of time, and industry "buy-in." Maybe one day, when I retire from my "day job," I will pursue this.

Regards,
Dave

Oh man... that would be awesome! It would help a lot of people I think. For people who don't have access to a lot of different cues, having some sort of guide (as flawed as it might be - anything is better than nothing) to help compare cues either online or in a catalog would be excellent.

Assuming of course that each cue manufacture could replicate the results for each line of cues they offered within a standard deviation. All cues in the given line have a frequency between x and y. That kind of thing. That way the top-end cues would all play so similar that they were indistinguishable from each other, but still noticeable from other, lower-end, lines.

 

[danquixote]

I actually think this type of testing was done a few years back. There were some players that thought they could tell the difference between the joint materials on a cue - stainless, phenolic, ivory, wood. They did a blindfold test, and actually placed tape over the joint so no one could tell what material the joint was made from. The outcome of the test - the joint material didn't affect the hit of the cue.

Here's my take on quantifying the subjective - you can't. It's like trying to quantify why I like my steak medium rare, but my wife likes medium. It's all about personal preference. Some people like a bullwhip, some like a plank.

A tip can change the hit of a cue as well. I got my hands on a Rick Howard recently. It had Moori tips on it. The cue had the worst ping I had ever heard or felt. I changed the tips to Le Pro - the cue hit like gold. So, as much as this testing would be neat, the testing would come down to how well the tip and ferrule hit, unfortunately.

Yes.....this is the outcome I would have predicted....most if not all.....would be unable to discern much difference in hit with a blindfold....I would even go so far as to say.......at least 90% of those involved would not even recognize the hit of their own cue!!!!!

 

[pt109]

Finding the right cue

Actually, I took an interest in this many years ago, and I took some accelerometer measurements to try to quantitatively characterize the "hit and feel" of various cues. Quantitatively, "hit and feel" can be described by the amplitude of the initial impact shock, the main frequency of vibration after impact, and the rate of decay of the vibration amplitude after impact. I thought it would be cool if there were an industry-standard way of labeling cues with 3-4 numbers (and/or letters) that describe the natural pivot length and "hit and feel" of every cue. That way, if you know the numbers for your current cue, and wanted to buy a new cue, the numbers would help guide your decision.

Unfortunately, projects like this take money (for development of equipment, software, and procedures), lots of time, and industry "buy-in." Maybe one day, when I retire from my "day job," I will pursue this.

Regards,
Dave

I feel the value of having your own cue is how it spins.
For me the shaft has to whip quick - that magic combination of
tolerance and strength.I doubt this could be established by a
blind-fold center-ball hit test.So far i've found some by feel.
I've never gotten lucky ordering cues.Just don't know how to
order what i want.
Golf clubs were revolutionized by swing-weighting.Byron Nelson's
set were found to be almost bang-on.He had acquired them by feel.
Only one iron was off and he said he never could find a good one.
So Doc.it's time to quit your day job.Would be nice to be able to
order what i want.We need this knowledge.
So what if you end up living on the streets.If we give you a ride home
it means we can drop you off anywhere

 

[Beware_of_Dawg]

Must see how it works, not just feel it in your hand. Knowing how the ball reacts and how it essentially "performs" is critical to making any judgement regarding sports equipment. This can not be debated.

Blind fold me & I could shoot pool with Angelina Joile's boob... I'll bet that thing feels fuxing GREAT in my hand!!! bet i can't shoot a bank shot for chit with it though. lol.

 

[FamilyMan]

The only way i see this working would be if there were several different people doing the quanitifying that had distinct preferences. Those doing the quantifying would need to be consistent and not change preferences. I could then determine which quantifier had closer preferences to my own and use their preferences and quantifying as input for any future choice i make.

Good idea, but an extremely large task. Good luck!