Table Leveling Standards

When I level slate for a table that will have Simonis 860 installed my Satrrett level must not read more than one graduation from level.

More than one graduation = the balls roll off.

One graduation = .005"

Standard for Simonis 860 = .005"
 
did I mention cloth? no I didn't

once again where do you put the levels

where do you put the levels?
 
did I mention cloth? no I didn't

once again where do you put the levels

where do you put the levels?

Hey John,
If I understand what you are looking for. I have 22 spots I check on the slates. I would put it on a cuetable print out but my son sleeps in the same room as the printer and he is no fun when he gets awakened. If I am missing the boat here please explain for us slower folk..lol
 
Hey John,
If I understand what you are looking for. I have 22 spots I check on the slates. I would put it on a cuetable print out but my son sleeps in the same room as the printer and he is no fun when he gets awakened. If I am missing the boat here please explain for us slower folk..lol

At last, you read me loud and clear. No problem waiting. thanks Pat
 
I have heard a lot of talk about the way ASE mechanics have standards. ASE certification has almost zero to do with how competent an auto mechanic is.

There are however standards that must be met in procedures for mechanical set up of assemblies. One differential may require 8 to 16 thou of backlash, for another the spec can be completely different.

Some brake systems are incredibalty sensitive requiring rotor run-out of less than .0015". Another car may brake smooth as glass with .020" rotor run-out.

How perfectly flat a slate must be hinges on what cloth will be used. Worn out Valley tables may play fine with shag cloth but install Simonis and the balls are making u-turns.

A customer with a P.O.S. table might be just fine with P.O.S cloth. If he wants Simonis he might not be in such good shape.

Are you saying that unless a customer pays you 8 hrs to perfectly correct every slight warp in his slate you wont install low end cloth if that is all he can afford and ultimately all he wants and needs?
 
I have heard a lot of talk about the way ASE mechanics have standards. ASE certification has almost zero to do with how competent an auto mechanic is.

There are however standards that must be met in procedures for mechanical set up of assemblies. One differential may require 8 to 16 thou of backlash, for another the spec can be completely different.

Some brake systems are incredibalty sensitive requiring rotor run-out of less than .0015". Another car may brake smooth as glass with .020" rotor run-out.

How perfectly flat a slate must be hinges on what cloth will be used. Worn out Valley tables may play fine with shag cloth but install Simonis and the balls are making u-turns.

A customer with a P.O.S. table might be just fine with P.O.S cloth. If he wants Simonis he might not be in such good shape.

Are you saying that unless a customer pays you 8 hrs to perfectly correct every slight warp in his slate you wont install low end cloth if that is all he can afford and ultimately all he wants and needs?

Matt,
No disrespect but are you an auto mechanic or a table mechanic or both?
 
When I turned 30 I decided to have a large birthday party with a pool tourny. Since I had 7 Diamond Professional pool tables in storage I decided to have 2 of them set up next to my Pro Am. I wanted the tables to play good so I checked the mechanic registry here and then got references for the mechanic. I'm not going to get into details here but I will say say that payed a premium price and I was less than satisfied.

When I heard about the Alsip class I jumped at the chance to learn. I sent a PM to Glen explaining my desire to attend and was told by Glen that I was welcome to attend.

Since then I have been setting up tables and I am enjoying it.

If you would like me to bow out of this conversation I will.
 
When I turned 30 I decided to have a large birthday party with a pool tourny. Since I had 7 Diamond Professional pool tables in storage I decided to have 2 of them set up next to my Pro Am. I wanted the tables to play good so I checked the mechanic registry here and then got references for the mechanic. I'm not going to get into details here but I will say say that payed a premium price and I was less than satisfied.

When I heard about the Alsip class I jumped at the chance to learn. I sent a PM to Glen explaining my desire to attend and was told by Glen that I was welcome to attend.

Since then I have been setting up tables and I am enjoying it.

If you would like me to bow out of this conversation I will.

I remember you Matt. Nice meeting you at the seminar. I think any association and certification that does come about will have some of the same ideas as the ASE. Which I am assuming you are a part of. Maybe you can add your 2 cents in future threads too.
 
Using your thought pattern I would never want you near a snooker table based on how thick the cloth is. You should NEVER use cloth as your guide.

Your levels yes, but yet, still no mention of where.

DID they teach that at the class in ISLIP I slip I slip

Forget the cloth if they did, I can assure you of that
 
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Thanks Pat. I was very impressed with you and your crew. Dedicated professionals who I could see took pride in their work.

OLTB I think you also take great pride in your work. If you have a method you would like to submit for group adoption just say what it is. I was taught the low low leveling technique. I'm sure when you met Glen he showed it to you. That is the only system I know.

I threw out No's to get the ball rolling. If you disagree state your case, I'm ready to learn. I dont think it matters whos system is used as long as the result is a level table. Level is level. Because a piece of slate is level does not mean it is true across the total surface. Slate warps. I think cloth speed dictates how flat/true slate must be.

If you think Im doing something wrong I would appreciate knowing what it is and the way to do it correctly.
 
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no, I don't use a low low method, and no Glen didn't show me how to level a table because he knows I already know how.

My question is can the mechs in this forum agree on specific locations for levels to be placed on a table every time, thats all.

If I say what I do it wont matter. I want the mechs in here to decide. If a topic like this can't be reached collectively then hopes of an organization are really weak.

You keep setting up tables and you will learn more. Learn for yourself and don't accept what others say as Gospel. Listen to what is preached but the truth will prevail as time goes on.You will see after 1000 tables or so it is very easy to level a table. IN fact, once someone shows you an easy way you can do it after one.

How about everyone being in agreement that a level shouldn't rock across the seams. Lets say on the sides and the middle. Does help you understand what I am saying? now thats 6 spots

Again this thread is not about HOW to level a table.

getting late and 4 comes around quick, cant wait to see what has been added. good nite lurkers count 10 lurkers now
 
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John, I already know what you've been driving at, as I showed Diamond where to place the 30 levels they use to read the level of the slate as to be able to see changes in level of the slate besides right where it's being adjusted, but this forum is NOT the place to decide all the different placements of the level, but you're more than welcome to persist in the information you're seeking.

Glen
 
Diamonds are NOT the most used table in tournaments and that is not what I asked about it, is it?

I didn't ask about bandaids or super glue either

Simple question but as I suspected there is no focus. The attitude is one of why something can't work versus one of " OK lets see what we can come up with"

Jay is on point and I trust Dartman to filter results of the spreadsheet.

I will wait for Dartman to weigh in, did I just say that?

If you say your going to do something, get it done or get out of the way. Thats what I say. I have formed the BMA and if this simple std can NOT be established by you guys(not me) I will write it for you.

Talking about something and doing it are two dif things. My track record in this area is perfect. I get it done!

When it comes to setting tables up for tournaments, Diamond supplies more tables from a manufacture than ANY other manufacture of pool tables in the world....so you're wrong on this one John.

Glen
 
Wow. I'm kind of upset that the internet connection at the Horseshoe wasn't working. I can't get on AZ for a day, and everyone is fired up all over this thread?! Seems a bit ridiculous to me.

Example, Rob, you seem personally offended/pissed that everyone is not using index cards. I think you're taking that "method" a little too literal. The index cards are a tool to help you visualize what the levels read if you're not able to use Diamond's factory setup and have 30 levels set all around the table. And to quickly hit on that, the levels should go between any levelling points. On the Pro-Ams/Smart Tables, they should go right in between the levelling screws. Other tables, still between the levelling screws. You don't span seams, you don't put a level right on top of a screw hole. Put them where you can get the most accurate read and that might vary from table to table. Do you need 30 levels? No. Does it help to have more than 1? Absolutely.

Back to the cards, I think they are like using a road map every time you go home. The first couple times after you move in, yeah, it might be helpful. Once you start learning street names and remembering your route, you might not need the map. The cards are there to help visualize the table as a whole because it's hard to remember that point 1 is .005 out to the left and point 2 is .002 out to the right, etc. for all those levelling points. Once you understand how it's done, you get a better understanding of how level the table is as a whole and where you need to adjust next. If using the cards helps you to obtain the end result, by all means use them. If you've gone home enough times to remember how to get there, scrap the map.

Which brings me to the "standards" we've all been talking about... The "standards" are NOT how many levels we use, where we put them, wether or not we use cards, or any of that. Those are all Standard Operating Procedure (SOP). When we talk about standards, we're talking about measurable results, not methods. That's what we need to establish as a group, a union, an association, or whatever the case may be. To put it another way, if the tolerances of the slate manufacturing are within .005, then it seems that should be the standard. We should level our slate to within .005, and yes, regardless of the cloth. Ask Greg Sullivan this past weekend if .005 is level on the Accu-Stats table. By his standards, "level enough" isn't. Yeah, you may never see a ball roll off at .005, but if it's at .005 and you're leaning on the rail to shoot a long ball, is it still .005?

Yes, we need to get associations in place to establish these standards. Yes, we need to have certain SOP's in place. Is the RKC way the only way to get a table done? I can already feel the red reps coming, but nope. :D Has he spent years and years experimenting and thinking outside the box to improve the way we do things so that we can achieve a higher standard? Most definitely. Be free thinkers, guys, that's how we've gotten to the point we are now. Trade ideas, adapt methods, etc, but the end result is what we need to focus on.

End Rant. ;)
 
Wow. I'm kind of upset that the internet connection at the Horseshoe wasn't working. I can't get on AZ for a day, and everyone is fired up all over this thread?! Seems a bit ridiculous to me.

Example, Rob, you seem personally offended/pissed that everyone is not using index cards. I think you're taking that "method" a little too literal. The index cards are a tool to help you visualize what the levels read if you're not able to use Diamond's factory setup and have 30 levels set all around the table. And to quickly hit on that, the levels should go between any levelling points. On the Pro-Ams/Smart Tables, they should go right in between the levelling screws. Other tables, still between the levelling screws. You don't span seams, you don't put a level right on top of a screw hole. Put them where you can get the most accurate read and that might vary from table to table. Do you need 30 levels? No. Does it help to have more than 1? Absolutely.

Back to the cards, I think they are like using a road map every time you go home. The first couple times after you move in, yeah, it might be helpful. Once you start learning street names and remembering your route, you might not need the map. The cards are there to help visualize the table as a whole because it's hard to remember that point 1 is .005 out to the left and point 2 is .002 out to the right, etc. for all those levelling points. Once you understand how it's done, you get a better understanding of how level the table is as a whole and where you need to adjust next. If using the cards helps you to obtain the end result, by all means use them. If you've gone home enough times to remember how to get there, scrap the map.

Which brings me to the "standards" we've all been talking about... The "standards" are NOT how many levels we use, where we put them, wether or not we use cards, or any of that. Those are all Standard Operating Procedure (SOP). When we talk about standards, we're talking about measurable results, not methods. That's what we need to establish as a group, a union, an association, or whatever the case may be. To put it another way, if the tolerances of the slate manufacturing are within .005, then it seems that should be the standard. We should level our slate to within .005, and yes, regardless of the cloth. Ask Greg Sullivan this past weekend if .005 is level on the Accu-Stats table. By his standards, "level enough" isn't. Yeah, you may never see a ball roll off at .005, but if it's at .005 and you're leaning on the rail to shoot a long ball, is it still .005?

Yes, we need to get associations in place to establish these standards. Yes, we need to have certain SOP's in place. Is the RKC way the only way to get a table done? I can already feel the red reps coming, but nope. :D Has he spent years and years experimenting and thinking outside the box to improve the way we do things so that we can achieve a higher standard? Most definitely. Be free thinkers, guys, that's how we've gotten to the point we are now. Trade ideas, adapt methods, etc, but the end result is what we need to focus on.

End Rant. ;)

Naaa....I think your statement is pretty much right on point;)
 
My question is this:

If a governing body is established and a mechanic is certified by that governing body. How level must the entire playing surface be before the job is completed?

99% of the playing surface is perfect, 1% is not.
99 is not 100.
How close to .000 does the 1% have to be for the job to be completed?


I have had someone walk up to me and look over my shoulder wile leveling and watched the bubble move .005
No one is leaning on the table
 
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My question is this:

If a governing body is established and a mechanic is certified by that governing body. How level must the entire playing surface be before the job is completed?

99% of the playing surface is perfect, 1% is not.
99 is not 100.
How close to .000 does the 1% have to be for the job to be completed?


I have had someone walk up to me and look over my shoulder wile leveling and watched the bubble move .005
No one is leaning on the table

That will be OTLB'S next thread...."How level...is level?"
 
Matt, I appreciate you making it a point to not call me out in public. However, I think you had a very valid question, and I think it would be good for everyone to think about their response.

Here's what you PM'ed me:

MoonshineMattK said:
I agree with most of what you said but just to be clear.

You are saying you have NEVER left a job and taken a customers money after recovering and leveling a table unless EVERY part of the playing surface was within .002" from level.

Just wanted to make sure I understand you clearly.

I'm most certainly NOT saying I've never left a job perfect. For the first 8 years of my "career", I worked full-time for a table dealer. I learned my job from his installer. I had no experience in the business. I was just looking for some part-time easy work behind the counter in a pool room and ended up an install helper. In my mind at the time, those guys were the experts. Now a couple years later when the installer quits out of the blue, I became the lead installer. Over the course of the next few years, I went back on several jobs where I had to remove rail bolts with a hacksaw because this guy was fond of using a big impact wrench to put them in. He had tightened some to the point that it snapped the threaded insert loose and it was just spinning up in the rail. Anyway, that's just one example of the "experts" that were teaching me how to do things.

Skip ahead to a couple of years ago when I started my own business thinking I was pretty good at what I do. I could get tables to roll right using a carpenter level. I could get Simonis on super tight. Etc etc etc. Looking back, I'm sure that plenty of those tables weren't within .002. Hell, I think that level is only accurate to .010. The work was as good as anyone in town and my customers were happy.

Since becoming a member of this board, I learned about Starrett levels, and purchased a couple. I've attended the Alsip Seminar and learned how to PROPERLY install Simonis to reduce stretch shadows, and learned to glue the seams so they don't shift later if the table settles, among many other tools, tricks and techniques.

If there's anyone here that says they've NEVER left a table that wasn't perfect, I think they're lying. The difference now is that I have learned from those other guys' mistakes. I've learned from Glen, OTLB, and many others on here. I've adapted some of my own methods. Now if I come across a table I can't get right, there's a reason for it. I show the problem to the customer and explain their options for making it right. Sometimes making the table right will cost the customer more. Sometimes I just want them to see where previous installers have taken shortcuts, or left things undone. It lets them know that I'm willing to go beyond their expectations to do the work right even if they might never know the difference. There are even times I've refused to put the table together in it's current condition because the customer didn't want to pay extra, but it's my reputation attached to the work (room owner had wrong rubber profile on a table and I wouldn't finish the recover without replacing the rubber).

So, I can honestly say that given the tools and knowledge that I've picked up along the way, I do EVERY job to the best of my ability. I've learned plenty in my 10 years so far, and I'm sure there's plenty more to learn, but it wouldn't be fair to anyone to not give them my best work.
 
I knew OTLB's starting of this thread would stir up some off the wall BS. Look guys, leveling at table is a method of accomplishment, not a standard, meaning maybe you CAN place the levels in certain spots as John would like to hear me say, BUT what John don't realize is them CERTAIN spots are not always going to work for every slate as not all slates are not machined to the same flatness, so a mechanic is going to have to rely more on a method of leveling instead of a standard placement of levels to check readings of level. As far as how level is level, that once again depends on what slates you're working on. Same as .002-.010 level readings, on some slates you're just NOT going to get the same level as other slates....so the mechanic is just going to have to know when enough is enough, and that comes with experience, not the number of levels you use...or where in the hell you place them:mad: and that comes from methods and systems that WORK!

I'm done with this damn thread;)

Glen
 
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