you make the call! Foul or not

If I'm the shooter it's ok to say "I think I fouled" and hand the ball to the other guy... first because the shooter is even closer to the shot than the ref so he's more able to call it, and gets some input the ref doesn't (e.g. the feel of a double hit). Second because the instant the shooter picks up the CB and hands it to the other guy, he has DEFINITELY fouled, so it's almost irrelevant anyway. The ref will likely not be offended, because he knows the shooter has a better chance of spotting the foul and will see it as integrity.

It's a little trickier though to call "not-a-foul" on another person. Especially as the guy in the chair. You can't just literally hand it back and give up the inning that the ref gave you. You can't just tap the cue ball and say "it's yours". Then you're giving ball in hand instead of the position the original shooter played. You wanna do the right thing, but giving up BIH when the other guy did nothing to deserve it is overdoing it. Also the ref is going to feel more offended that a guy in the chair thinks he saw it better. You don't antagonize the ref.

I guess both players could do a gentleman's agreement where the chair guy taps the CB, and the incoming guy plays it in position.
 
jingle said:
Calling Mike's character into question over this is total BS. I wasn't there, but that doesn't matter. The bottom line is that refs in all sports make calls like this every day. Regardless of the sport you are talking about some are good calls, some are bad calls and some could literally go either way. Do you ever see a player or coach in the NFL/NBA/MLB decline a favorable call because they think the ref/ump made a bad call? Of course you don't, because the calls tend to even out over time. The bottom line for me, is if you don't want the ref to potentially make a bad call against you, then don't put yourself in a position for the ref to have to make a call at all. If you have ball in hand, why would you even chance it if it was that close?
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Exactly why would you even risk it with Ball In Hand. I believe that is referred to as Hero Syndrome.
 
jingle said:
Calling Mike's character into question over this is total BS. I wasn't there, but that doesn't matter. The bottom line is that refs in all sports make calls like this every day. Regardless of the sport you are talking about some are good calls, some are bad calls and some could literally go either way. Do you ever see a player or coach in the NFL/NBA/MLB decline a favorable call because they think the ref/ump made a bad call? Of course you don't, because the calls tend to even out over time. The bottom line for me, is if you don't want the ref to potentially make a bad call against you, then don't put yourself in a position for the ref to have to make a call at all. If you have ball in hand, why would you even chance it if it was that close?
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That's just it though, Mike doesn't have any integrity!! He would do anything to win, even by cheating!! He admitted it wasn't a foul, and didn't do the right thing...pretty sure there is a lack of integrity there!!!
 
Big Dog said:
That's just it though, Mike doesn't have any integrity!! He would do anything to win, even by cheating!! He admitted it wasn't a foul, and didn't do the right thing...pretty sure there is a lack of integrity there!!!
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Well if that is your guideline for integrity, then I'm pretty sure that there has NEVER been a coach or team (in any sport) that has ever won a championship that had any integrity because they have all received favorable calls somewhere along the way to the title. Like I said, I wasn't there and I don't have a dog in this fight. It just seems like Mike is being called-out for not doing something above-and-beyond what the rules call for, and I don't equate that to a lack of integrity.
 
jingle said:
Well if that is your guideline for integrity, then I'm pretty sure that there has NEVER been a coach or team (in any sport) that has ever won a championship that had any integrity because they have all received favorable calls somewhere along the way to the title. Like I said, I wasn't there and I don't have a dog in this fight. It just seems like Mike is being called-out for not doing something above-and-beyond what the rules call for, and I don't equate that to a lack of integrity.
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I believe this game should still be a gentlemen's game! I believe that if a ref makes a bad call you do the right thing. Like I said earlier, I would rather lose by being honest, than win that way. If you talk to the other guys on the team I play on, we would all do the right thing in that case. Would you sacrifice your morals over a game of pool? Pool is just a game, but situations like this show what kind of person you are in everyday life.
 
jingle said:
Well if that is your guideline for integrity, then I'm pretty sure that there has NEVER been a coach or team (in any sport) that has ever won a championship that had any integrity because they have all received favorable calls somewhere along the way to the title. Like I said, I wasn't there and I don't have a dog in this fight. It just seems like Mike is being called-out for not doing something above-and-beyond what the rules call for, and I don't equate that to a lack of integrity.
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We're also not getting paid millions to play pool. Our jobs don't depend on winning championships.
 
Big Dog said:
I believe this game should still be a gentlemen's game! I believe that if a ref makes a bad call you do the right thing. Like I said earlier, I would rather lose by being honest, than win that way. If you talk to the other guys on the team I play on, we would all do the right thing in that case. Would you sacrifice your morals over a game of pool? Pool is just a game, but situations like this show what kind of person you are in everyday life.
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And I could agree with you if there were no ref involved and it were up to the players to call everything on themselves. But that wasn't the case. Using the "gentleman's game" notion, should a person allow a player to re-shoot if their object ball misses the pocket because it hits a small chunk of chalk on the felt en route to the pocket?
 
jingle said:
And I could agree with you if there were no ref involved and it were up to the players to call everything on themselves. But that wasn't the case. Using the "gentleman's game" notion, should a person allow a player to re-shoot if their object ball misses the pocket because it hits a small chunk of chalk on the felt en route to the pocket?
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How does that even compare? Hitting a piece of chalk on the table is out of your control. Being honest about the call made by this ref is in your control!! It's funny what people will do for $400, I think that's what he got for 2nd place. Like Jason said, we aren't playing for huge money, so why sacrifice your morals over a game of pool!!! We are basically playing for pride and to break even for the weekend...I won't win that way!!
 
Again i would like to point out, i didn't see the shot.

All i have to go on is what i've heard and the fact that Mike posted on AZ that it was a good hit.


Honestly, im tired of talking about it. I am gonna see if i can make the final table 2 days in a row in my poker tournament.
 
Big Dog said:
How does that even compare? Hitting a piece of chalk on the table is out of your control. Being honest about the call made by this ref is in your control!!
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Is it out of your control? I know you have watched Johnny Archer shoot before, do you think he wouldn't notice the chunk of chalk on the felt and remove it before he shot? I'm not trying to be argumentative and I don't know what I would have done in the same situation if I was Mike. However, I do know that if I had BIH I wouldn't be setting up a shot that brought the ref's intepretation into play.
 
Big Dog said:
You tell me, what would you do in the Tuesday tournament if that happened? Would you be honest or not?
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Honestly, I would probably accept the refs ruling, good or bad. Why? Because I'm not very good at judging good hits or bad hits. Most of my playing is done in my basement with my kids, so I never really pay much attention to hits.
 
jingle said:
Is it out of your control? I know you have watched Johnny Archer shoot before, do you think he wouldn't notice the chunk of chalk on the felt and remove it before he shot? I'm not trying to be argumentative and I don't know what I would have done in the same situation if I was Mike. However, I do know that if I had BIH I wouldn't be setting up a shot that brought the ref's intepretation into play.
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How well do you know Mike Athens?
 
jingle said:
Well enough. Is that why this argument has endured because it's Mike and not someone else?
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No the argument has endured because not only is it Mike Athens but also Whitey Walker, two people who invoke strong feelings from most people in the state of Iowa. Some good feelings and some bad feelings.
 
jingle said:
Well enough. Is that why this argument has endured because it's Mike and not someone else?
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Well, this isn't the first time someone has had a problem with him...he will do whatever it takes to win. I'm not surprised at all that Mike did this. Most people that I play with, I would be shocked, but not since it's Mike Athens.
 
mikeyfrost said:
No the argument has endured because not only is it Mike Athens but also Whitey Walker, two people who invoke strong feelings from most people in the state of Iowa. Some good feelings and some bad feelings.
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And yes, I would believe Whitey Walker any day over Mike Athens!!
 
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