CTE Aiming Systems - Fact or Fiction?

[Poolplaya9]

Land with your english when you slide into position. Remember, this is not a math system. I made the mistake of thinking it was.

You got that right. It's a "feel" system, with the only difference from just aiming by "feel" to begin being that you are adjusting off of a starting reference point, instead of just aiming by feel from scratch. This starting reference point is in itself probably not much of a benefit for many people, but the increased focus you have on the object ball while doing it this way does in fact cause benefits for some people.

 

[Poolplaya9]

For one thing IF Pro1(CTE) is as good as Stan says it is then it's a good business decision to charge $250 a person to give away the information rather then $39 a video which will probably only sell a few hundred copies and be pirated anyway.

It would also be a poor business decision to publicly release the details of a system so that it could then be thoroughly and systematically proven not to physically work. People aren't going to pay for something that gives them a placebo effect, or makes them concentrate more, or that gives them a general starting aiming point, when do can do all of that themselves, for free.

Hal's biggest admonition to all of us who learned from him was to be wary of spreading inaccurate information.

What Hal is really saying is don't put the information out there where it will be proven inaccurate. Only share in private with those that are "open" to it (ie gullible).

It's hard to write up a set of instructions and have you "get it" based on the written word.

It is not hard at all when something physically works. When something doesn't physically work, however, it is impossible, which is why after 15+ years of it being discussed on the internet, not one single person yet has ever been able to explain how it physically works.

 

[Jal]

I agree, but it won't ever happen because it will cost the proponents money, "prestige" (in the eyes of the misinformed), or their pride when they have to admit that they had bought into nonsense.

I think I can speak for all of us who know that these systems do not physically work, that our problem is only with the false claims and lies that are made, not with people using and benefitting from the systems for reasons that are truthful. If the proponents of these systems would only stop lying and just say "hey, try this system, it gets you in the general aim vicinity and from there you adjust by feel, and because of this starting reference point, some people find it easier than aiming solely from scratch with no reference and they gain some benefit from doing it this way."

Or they could say "hey, try this system because when you use it to get in the general aiming vicinity for your shot, your increased focus on the object ball and on the angle of the shots will result in you making better aiming adjustments by feel because of this increased focus, and also results in using a better stroke because you are bearing down harder and concentrating harder, and for some people who were lacking in these things it can cause your pocketing percentage to go up."

Or they could say "try this system even though it is complete garbage and has no scientific, mathematical, or physical validity whatsoever, and in fact is completely invalid, but the fact that you are trying it and using it will sometimes cause a placebo effect that will benefit your shotmaking anyway."

The problem is they can't tell the truth, because then they have nothing to sell, or nothing to make themselves look knowledgable or cool for possessing this "secret" and "mysterious" information. They know that most people would not pay for this "knowledge" if they knew the truth because they would just be thinkng, "well hell, if I need a starting reference point, I will just ask myself if my shot is closest to a edge, quarter, half, three quarter, or full ball hit, and then I will adjust my aim by feel from there, because the "system" effectively has the same lack of precision anyway, so I can just make up any type of system that gets me close and there is no need for me to buy anything."

Or they would say, "for a placebo effect, I could just tell myself that licking my lips before every shot will improve my performance, so there is no need to buy anything."

Or they would say, "for increased focus I can just concentrate harder on the spot I need to hit the ball, which is what you do when you are playing be feel anyway, so I just need to concentrate harder, so no need to buy anything."

That's why proponents can't tell the truth, because then their "secret" information suddenly doesn't look so valuable any more when exposed for what it really is.

But what do you really think about them?

Jim

 

[JB Cases]

It would also be a poor business decision to publicly release the details of a system so that it could then be thoroughly and systematically proven not to physically work. People aren't going to pay for something that gives them a placebo effect, or makes them concentrate more, or that gives them a general starting aiming point, when do can do all of that themselves, for free.

Well that thinking hasn't stopped the homeopathic "medicine" industry now has it?

How you go about disproving CTE? You say that you can thoroughly and systematically prove it doesn't work then why not do it now? Surely you have access to a video camera.

Hal Houle has given this information away FOR FREE for ten years. Stan Shuffet makes his living as an instructor. Now personally I think that Stan should "pay it forward" and give anyone who asks him the basics of CTE for free as Hal gave it to him. However if someone wants more than the basics or if they need other help then they should be willing to pay for it.

Many times while selling jump cues I was faced with players whose stroke was awful. They would come to the booth and want to try the cue and when they couldn't jump with it their conclusion was that "it" didn't work.

So I had to learn to teach people by first giving them proper stroke mechanics. Once they had that then they were able to use the jump cue properly.

What Hal is really saying is don't put the information out there where it will be proven inaccurate. Only share in private with those that are "open" to it (ie gullible).

No that's not what Hal is saying. Hal has put the information out there for anyone who wants it. Dave Alciatore has stated that he has spent many hours on the phone with Hal and Dave has not or cannot disprove CTE. He can't explain how it works any more than you can. So he comes to the conclusion that it's all "subconscious".

I wasn't "open" to it when Hal showed me the systems. IN fact I thought he was a weird old man and nutty on top of it. I spent the first 30 minutes trying to come up with an excuse to leave so I could go gamble.

Then I settled down and started listening and started making balls like crazy. Meanwhile my conscious brain was screaming NO NO NO this is not the right line.

You know why? You must know why because you talk about psychology and placebos etc....

The WHY is because when I did it by rote or by feel PRE-Hal then my mind would go, ok that's about right, just s hair to the left, ok gonna put some right spin on it so scooch a little to the right, ok ok wait for it , wait wait, now pull the trigger - - - - and sometimes I would guess right and sometimes I would guess wrong.

Then post-Hal I started doing the same thing every time and no more guessing and what happened - well now I am making the shots cleaner, making more of them, and making harder ones more consistently.

Then after a while even when I didn't use "the system" on every shot I could just see the right line in a split second without any guessing.

It is not hard at all when something physically works. When something doesn't physically work, however, it is impossible, which is why after 15+ years of it being discussed on the internet, not one single person yet has ever been able to explain how it physically works.

Lots of people have explained how it physically works. You just discount all of them.

When people start talking about perspective and dominant eyes and rotating edges, shot circles etc... you all refuse to discuss those topics for whatever merit that they may have and instead want to go back to it being voodoo and snake oil.

Come and play me some and you will be saying "good shot" a lot while I put down a can of snake oil on your butt

I don't know why it's so hard to understand that SOMEONE somewhere could have figured out something WITHOUT putting pen to paper.

Why is is so difficult for you to understand that not everything that is invented or discovered is a result of proving it conceptually on paper first?

I know trained gymnasts who are AFRAID to do some of the moves that top break dancers do. My sister who was a national class gymnast says that she would break her arm if she tried some of those moves. I am sure that the top break dancers didn't learn these moves by sitting around a table making diagrams and debating whether they were physically possible or not. No, they got out there on the floor and discovered them.

So to me it's not at all unusual for someone to figure out the physical properties of an action without knowing the physics behind it.

 

[CreeDo]

Eh JB, so easily offended over what?

Buckets of money: IF it works and the first 20-30 cutomers are sold on it... they're gonna tell 50 more, and so on. That's inevitable if their shotmaking "quintuples overnight after playing around with it for an hour" or merely improves "200%" (exaggerations happen on both sides, yes?). I can easily see it becoming the best selling pool DVD of all time IF it really completely changes your game. Maybe the bestselling pool DVD of all time won't mean 'buckets of money', so, let's amend my statement to just say 'profitable'. I guess it was my turn to be nitpicked.

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I don't see any reason for stan to not go through with this. It doesn't have to be some 20,000 dollar professionally produced masterpiece. Your estimate was what, 200 or 300 copies x 40 bucks a pop? That's a nice take, and it could sell 5-10 times that if it's really that good. That's not me making a bold statement, just me taking other people's bold statements to their logical conclusion.

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I don't see any reason it can't be diagrammed or video'd, especially if it's exact and nobody needs to guess or estimate anything. Estimations and subconscious things are hard to show on video. Concrete steps that are based on certainties are not.

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I don't see any reason to blow tons of money, pay dues, drive 20 hours or kiss anyone's ass to learn it. Supposedly those who know it want to share it. Apparently I'm too thick and closeminded for it but there must be others you can reach. So share it. Make the video that stan won't (for whatever reason). You already have a camera and table and the knowledge. Find a couple of volunteers and get 'er done.
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PS: It bugs me that I'm being talked down to as if I'm an ass for expressing my opinions on CTE. I've gone out of my way to learn and it given it more hours than it probably deserves. And I've repeatedly thanked you for your efforts to teach and made sure to note that I don't think badly of you or dave or stan as human beings.

I like to discuss pool-related things. That's EXACTLY what the forum is for. So IF IT'S OKAY WITH YOU, I'm going to keep making comments, forming opinions, and asking questions because I flat out can't drive a thousand miles to learn it. I don't have the time, or the money... and I have no reassurance that it wouldn't be a waste even if I did.

How about instead of the burden being on me to "put up or shut up"... you stop spending an hour a day replying to us CTE knockers, and use those freed-up hours to make the video that will shut us all up?

 

[JB Cases]

I dare any of the opponents of CTE who have used words like snake-oil, fraud, placebo etc....to prove it doesn't work.

Since you claim that it's easily disproven then do it. Show us all on video that you know HOW TO SHOOT USING CTE and then show us all the subconcious adjusting and whatever else you say is going on.

I mean it out to be a no brainer for you. After 15 years of arguing against it you can simply prove your side of it - feel free to use all the graphs and charts and diagrams you want to supplement your physical demonstration on the pool table.

I will pay $500 for the first copy of the video which any of you put out that shows you using CTE properly. Surely with all of your brainpower and access to equipment you can easily make fools out of us who use CTE. You can put fancy graphics up with narrations to show us all how we are subconsciously tricking ourselves into becoming better players.

$500 - take it from me - I will put it in escrow for one month - shouldn't take you longer than that to make such a video.

You're always talking about "proof" well there you go, now you have some incentive to prove your case.

 

[Poolplaya9]

The system works.

Not physically it doesn't, and that has been proven repeatedly. It does provide some help in a mental sense for some people.

Using CTE I can make shots consistently that I never could make consistently before.

Then you are one of the people that it helps out mentally, but if you or anyone else strictly followed the system physically, with no "feel" adjustments, then you would actually miss most of your shots, even many of the ones that everyone would consider easy and a given.

So you can theorize all day long on what you think is going on.

That it doesn't work physically is a undisputed fact, and that you have to make "feel" adjustments to get it to work, is also fact. To argue otherwise is like trying to argue that you can leave San Francisco driving west and get to New York City.

The fact is that they work and someday some one will make a definitive video complete with diagrams showing the physical reasons why they work.

That will never happen because it is not true. People have already been discussing it for 15+ years on the internet and nobody yet can show how it can possibly work physically. On the other hand, it has been proven beyond all doubt, many times, in many different ways, that it cannot possibly work physically.

You THINK that you know how CTE works and therefore you are using the Ghost Ball framework to disprove something that you don't even know.

I know how it doesn't work, which is physically, and that is easily proven. Ghost ball has nothing to do with it.

I don't KNOW 100% YET how CTE works from a math/geometry standpoint but I know that it works from a practical standpoint.

So first you argue that it physically works and that someone will make a video explaining how it works physically, but then you now say that you don't even know that it physically works, you just know that it somehow works (which is basically an admission that it could be all mental for all you know). Those two statements completely oppose each other.

The second of those statements, quoted just above, basically echoes what I and many others have been saying. Yes, it does work for some, just not for any physical reasons, and in so many words you just admitted yourself that that in fact might just be the case.

You said it's a benefit only to 'weaker players' and I provided you quotes from two VERY STRONG players who extoll the benefits to them.

When arguing with someone, it is essential to first make sure you comprehend what you read. I never said it benefits only weaker players. I said "For the record, I DO think there are some benefits to the CTE systems, particularly for weaker players (which means that it can also benefit other levels of players), but the benefits are just things like a placebo effect, or it gets you in the general area of aim and you subconsciously adjust from there, or probably the biggest factor, it forces you to bear down and concentrate more which in turns makes your experience based, or intuition based, aiming more accurate (even if you are making those aiming adjustments subconciously, they ARE occuring)." The reason weaker players are more likely to benefit is because they have less of an experience and "feel" archive to draw from, so a starting aiming point that gets then in the vicinity might be better than their own limited ability, and a weaker player is also more likely to be lacking in focus and concentration, although it can happen at all levels.

The fact is that CTE does IN FACT work for any shot on the table that is going directly into a pocket.

Having more focus and confidence, two things that CTE does for some but not all people, will in fact help on every shot on a pool table. No argument here.

Using CTE as the ONLY method to approach the shot, doing exactly the steps as instructed ANY SHOT on the table can be made. No adjustments, no fiddling, no fidgeting, no second guessing.

This has been disproven many times, in many ways. It simply is impossible. It is just like the people who argue that when hitting a staight in draw shot, the (equal weight) cue ball goes forward past where the object ball was for several inches before coming back. It just isn't true and cannot happen that way.

A placebo does not confer more ability. Sorry doesn't work that way. You don't suddenly jump from a C to an A player's shotmaking ability by virtue of a placebo.

Happens all the time to many players, probably including you. When you are feeling confident one day, you may shoot lights out. The next day your confidence is low, and you shoot like garbage. And the placebo effect really just gives confidence, and we all know confidence has a big impact on our game.

That would be like telling a third class runner that you gave him a pill that would make him faster and he goes out and tries to beat the world champion. Doesn't work that way. Results speak for themselves.

If he believed it might help, then it absolutely could boost his performance. That is exactly how the placebo effect works, based on belief. The results do speak for themselves, and this has been proven many, many, thousands of times in various experiments that the placebo effect is real and the results speak for themselves.

Everyone who learns CTE the RIGHT WAY has the same experience. All of us. We know full well what our ability is and where our weaknesses lie when it comes to pocketing balls. So we are fully aware of how to judge when that ability increases.

Nobody is claiming that it doesn't help certain people. We believe you. It's just that the system does not work physically, and your results are all from placebo, increased focus and confidence, better visualization for you personally because you have a starting reference point to adjust by feel from, etc. The system does not work physically. I know it isn't easy to admit that it is all mental and not physical, but its the truth.

It just frustrates the hell out of those of you who won't even try it that some of us are getting WAY MORE ENJOYMENT out of playing pool now that we can make more shots.

It probably won't benefit those that know the truth about the system, just like someone who doesn't believe in hypnotism and doesn't have a suggestable type personality, can't be hypnotized. And there is no need for us to start driving west from San Francisco in an attempt to get to New York City, because, to those with reason and logic, it is beyond obvious that it is impossible.

You show me a shot - I use CTE to make it. It's up to you to prove that I didn't use what I consciously said I did if it's your intention to prove that I couldn't have possibly made the ball using the steps I said I used.

It's been proven in this very forum many times.

I don't really understand why you or Dave Alicatore or Pat Johnson doesn't get on a table and prove it.

There you go again arguing that you won't believe that someone can't drive west out of San Francisco to get to New York City until you see someone attempt it. It can be easily proven without getting into your car and driving out into the ocean.

I am sure that once they start making more shots then they won't much care about being able to do the math and graphs to explain why it works.

You may be right. And all we care about is that they aren't lied to about why it works, if it helps them at all.

 

[JB Cases]

Eh JB, so easily offended over what?

Buckets of money: IF it works and the first 20-30 cutomers are sold on it... they're gonna tell 50 more, and so on. That's inevitable if their shotmaking "quintuples overnight after playing around with it for an hour" or merely improves "200%" (exaggerations happen on both sides, yes?). I can easily see it becoming the best selling pool DVD of all time IF it really completely changes your game. Maybe the bestselling pool DVD of all time won't mean 'buckets of money', so, let's amend my statement to just say 'profitable'. I guess it was my turn to be nitpicked.

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I don't see any reason for stan to not go through with this. It doesn't have to be some 20,000 dollar professionally produced masterpiece. Your estimate was what, 200 or 300 copies x 40 bucks a pop? That's a nice take, and it could sell 5-10 times that if it's really that good. That's not me making a bold statement, just me taking other people's bold statements to their logical conclusion.

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I don't see any reason it can't be diagrammed or video'd, especially if it's exact and nobody needs to guess or estimate anything. Estimations and subconscious things are hard to show on video. Concrete steps that are based on certainties are not.

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I don't see any reason to blow tons of money, pay dues, drive 20 hours or kiss anyone's ass to learn it. Supposedly those who know it want to share it. Apparently I'm too thick and closeminded for it but there must be others you can reach. So share it. Make the video that stan won't (for whatever reason). You already have a camera and table and the knowledge. Find a couple of volunteers and get 'er done.
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PS: It bugs me that I'm being talked down to as if I'm an ass for expressing my opinions on CTE. I've gone out of my way to learn and it given it more hours than it probably deserves. And I've repeatedly thanked you for your efforts to teach and made sure to note that I don't think badly of you or dave or stan as human beings.

I like to discuss pool-related things. That's EXACTLY what the forum is for. So IF IT'S OKAY WITH YOU, I'm going to keep making comments, forming opinions, and asking questions because I flat out can't drive a thousand miles to learn it. I don't have the time, or the money... and I have no reassurance that it wouldn't be a waste even if I did.

How about instead of the burden being on me to "put up or shut up"... you stop spending an hour a day replying to us CTE knockers, and use those freed-up hours to make the video that will shut us all up?

I don't need to shut you up. But with all the time you spend looking for assurances you could have learned it by now.

Even Cocobolo Cowboy took the time to go out and find the information on OTHER BOARDS and learned CTE on his own.

You can knock all day I don't care.

Discuss away. Form your opinions about something you don't get. That's fine - the one thing people never run out of is opinions.

Please stop with the "their gonnas and yada yada" you have no clue what it takes to produce any sort of video that's worthwhile. NONE. ZERO.

And beyond that you have ZERO CLUE about business and especially none about the billiard business if you think that making ANY VIDEO about aiming is going to be a huge money maker.

Stan wasn't making this video to make a ton of money. His motivation was to clear his name and Hal's and Dave's in order to PROVE to people like you what he already knows.

I will make a video showing what I know and I will do WHEN I am ready to do it. Don't tell me how to spend my time.

I have the knowledge you seek. Your attitude only serves to make me share it in private with those who really want to learn it. You obviously don't want to learn it.

I wonder how far I'd get in the ShaoLin temple if I went in there and told them all their martial arts techniques were bogus but I really do want to learn them?

When I do make a video it won't be for you Matt. Your passive-aggressive stance on this has completely turned me off. Maybe you will finally "get it" once I make the video but somehow I doubt it. I am fairly sure that if you can play at all then you'd get it if someone who knows showed you in person. But maybe not even then. Too bad if true because this is the greatest way to aim that's every been discovered. (just threw that in the mess with you)

No, when I make a video it will be for all the people who managed to be nice about this. The ones who don't waste millions of words insulting the people who just want to help others play better pool.

You see Matt, words like snake-oil salesman, fraud, zealot, etc.... those hurt.

Landon Shuffet is a bright young man with a bright future in pool. Do you honestly think that his father would allow his son to use any technique which is no good? Do you think that his father would risk his entire reputation teaching this to others if it had no merit.

I love the way that you and others just GLOSS OVER the fact that TWO of America's best players come right out and praise PRO1.

Do you think that Stan Shuffet would risk his reputation teaching this to professional world class players?

Yeah I get it that you and others think that this is something that is only good for gullible people. So are you saying that Stevie Moore is gullible?

Did he trick himself subconsciously into using Pro1 and endorsing it?

 

[JB Cases]

Not physically it doesn't, and that has been proven repeatedly. It does provide some help in a mental sense for some people.

Please link to the proof that it doesn't work. I have seen no physical demonstration of such.

Then you are one of the people that it helps out mentally, but if you or anyone else strictly followed the system physically, with no "feel" adjustments, then you would actually miss most of your shots, even many of the ones that everyone would consider easy and a given.

What system are you talking about? CTE? Describe to me the system that you are talking about. Please break down the steps so that I can see that you and I are on the same page.

Because I don't think that we are. I KNOW what I am doing and I know how it works. I think that you THINK you know.

So go ahead and tell us all what CTE is and how to implement it according to the directions. Since you know that you can disprove it I think that it naturally follows that you know what it is you're trying to disprove.

That it doesn't work physically is a undisputed fact, and that you have to make "feel" adjustments to get it to work, is also fact. To argue otherwise is like trying to argue that you can leave San Francisco driving west and get to New York City.

Um actually we are disputing it right now. Many people feel that it works physically without "feel" adjustments. So that fact is very much in dispute.

You can drive west from San Francisco to get to New York you just have to be driving the right vehicle for all substrates.

That will never happen because it is not true. People have already been discussing it for 15+ years on the internet and nobody yet can show how it can possibly work physically. On the other hand, it has been proven beyond all doubt, many times, in many different ways, that it cannot possibly work physically.

Really? Then the proof of such ought to be easy to reference. Where is it? Show me please the place where CTE is laid out exactly as to how it is to be implemented ALONGSIDE the proof that it does not work.

I know how it doesn't work, which is physically, and that is easily proven. Ghost ball has nothing to do with it.

Proof?

So first you argue that it physically works and that someone will make a video explaining how it works physically, but then you now say that you don't even know that it physically works, you just know that it somehow works (which is basically an admission that it could be all mental for all you know). Those two statements completely oppose each other.

I said I don't know HOW it works physically. In other words I can't explain it as neatly as ghost ball.

I know that it works because I can force myself to be entirely conscious and cognizant of my physical actions while using the CTE technique. And while using the ghostball technique and all other techniques. I am not some zombie that goes into a ball making trance just because I am using CTE.

I also know that nuclear fission works but I can't explain how it works. Someone who jumps out a window knows that gravity works without being able to explain it.

The second of those statements, quoted just above, basically echoes what I and many others have been saying. Yes, it does work for some, just not for any physical reasons, and in so many words you just admitted yourself that that in fact might just be the case.

I have admitted no such thing. First of all if it works at all then there is a PHYSICAL reason because there is no way to trick yourself into always finding the ONLY LINE which exists for each shot to make the shot. It's fairly easy to show that just being close is not enough. As you surely know distance narrows the margin of error considerably. So if ANY method consistently puts the user on the right line then there is a PHYSICAL reason for it because the user cannot suddenly invent feelings he has never known.

I used to be a competitive diver and I can tell you right now that there is no visualization technique in the world which will get me to do a three and half backwards. There is no placebo effect that will suddenly give me a skill that I don't have. There might be one that gives me confidence to do what I already know how to do but I guarantee you there is no placebo that makes you suddenly be able to make shots that you never could otherwise.

So if Hal Houle comes to me and says do this and this and this and I follow his instructions and am suddenly able to cut super thin balls, run balls up the rail, make balls mid-table with ease and more consistency then it clear that I MUST be on the RIGHT and CORRECT line to make those balls. Thus the system has physically placed me there.

When arguing with someone, it is essential to first make sure you comprehend what you read. I never said it benefits only weaker players. I said "For the record, I DO think there are some benefits to the CTE systems, particularly for weaker players (which means that it can also benefit other levels of players), but the benefits are just things like a placebo effect, or it gets you in the general area of aim and you subconsciously adjust from there, or probably the biggest factor, it forces you to bear down and concentrate more which in turns makes your experience based, or intuition based, aiming more accurate (even if you are making those aiming adjustments subconciously, they ARE occuring)." The reason weaker players are more likely to benefit is because they have less of an experience and "feel" archive to draw from, so a starting aiming point that gets then in the vicinity might be better than their own limited ability, and a weaker player is also more likely to be lacking in focus and concentration, although it can happen at all levels.

Yes I knew that you would pick on "only" which is why I used it. Because I certainly believe that you were hedging by using "particularly". Again though I think that we are not on the same page.

You have just made the point above that the player beneifts from getting in the vicinity (there is no vicinity, it is a narrow space where you can hit the object ball and make it.) - what do you think is responsible for getting players to the right line if not the system? Thus they have a PHYSICAL set of instruction which results in them putting their bridge hand down on the ONLY line from which they can make the ball.

Subconscious adjustment is your way of explaining away the fact that it works and you can't figure it out either.

Having more focus and confidence, two things that CTE does for some but not all people, will in fact help on every shot on a pool table. No argument here.

But what are they focusing on? Help me out here? I have a laser cutter that I have to focus every time I run a job. If they are focusing on something then what it is? How is it possible for all of these weak players with no library of incredible shots to draw from, to somehow magically find the right line over and over when they couldn't do it with whatever technique they were using before learning CTE?

This has been disproven many times, in many ways. It simply is impossible. It is just like the people who argue that when hitting a staight in draw shot, the (equal weight) cue ball goes forward past where the object ball was for several inches before coming back. It just isn't true and cannot happen that way.

Where is the proof? You have said that it's been disproven then show us where that is?

Happens all the time to many players, probably including you. When you are feeling confident one day, you may shoot lights out. The next day your confidence is low, and you shoot like garbage. And the placebo effect really just gives confidence, and we all know confidence has a big impact on our game.

Sure, but for you to say that CTE is all one big placebo is nonsense. Maybe getting to the right line and making so many incredible shots and feeling no fear anymore is what's giving the confidence. My wife has more confidence after I taught her to aim. No placebo needed. I taught her physically what to do and she does that repeatedly and now knows how to line up and shoot the ball in a straight line. No magic there.

If he believed it might help, then it absolutely could boost his performance. That is exactly how the placebo effect works, based on belief. The results do speak for themselves, and this has been proven many, many, thousands of times in various experiments that the placebo effect is real and the results speak for themselves.

So easy to just blanket everyone with the word placebo and subconscious isn't it? Now we are all pocket psychologists aren't we?

Nobody is claiming that it doesn't help certain people. We believe you. It's just that the system does not work physically, and your results are all from placebo, increased focus and confidence, better visualization for you personally because you have a starting reference point to adjust by feel from, etc. The system does not work physically. I know it isn't easy to admit that it is all mental and not physical, but its the truth.

It's your truth. You don't even know what CTE is or you would be able to explain it in detail on this very forum.

Once explained in detail as to what it is and how to implement it then you could proceed to show how it can't work.

But you can do neither.

You are not bound by any promise to Hal Houle not to publish the details.

So put it out there, show everyone that you know exactly what it is that you are claiming does not work except in the realm of the subconscious.

I have asked you at least three times to provide links to your incontrovertible proof that you say exists. Where is it?

It probably won't benefit those that know the truth about the system, just like someone who doesn't believe in hypnotism and doesn't have a suggestable type personality, can't be hypnotized. And there is no need for us to start driving west from San Francisco in an attempt to get to New York City, because, to those with reason and logic, it is beyond obvious that it is impossible.

What is the "truth"? I mean I have what I think is the truth. Where is yours?

It's been proven in this very forum many times.

Links?

There you go again arguing that you won't believe that someone can't drive west out of San Francisco to get to New York City until you see someone attempt it. It can be easily proven without getting into your car and driving out into the ocean.

We are talking about something you say is easily disproven. So do it.

You may be right. And all we care about is that they aren't lied to about why it works, if it helps them at all.

How can you be lied to if you don't even know what the system is? So far you have shown zero understanding of exactly what CTE is and the steps to implement it are.

There are many many of us who know what CTE is and we don't feel lied to at all.

 

[Poolplaya9]

How you go about disproving CTE? You say that you can thoroughly and systematically prove it doesn't work then why not do it now? Surely you have access to a video camera.

You don't have to video someone driving into the Pacific to prove that heading west out of San Francisco by car will not get you to New York City. Besides, if someone did video tape it, all you CTE users would just use your standard excuses, "well it didn' work because you don't know all the secrets," and "but I'm not going to tell you the secrets because it is too hard to explain," or because "I had to learn it on my own so I'm going to make you figure it out on your own too--this is top secret stuff, we don't just give it away (even though you do often give it away, but only to the gullible in private, NEVER in public in full)." The excuses you guys use to avoid telling about the system in detail in order to show how (you claim) it physically works are as predictable as a broken record.

It only takes a little thought and common sense to know it doesn't work. Dirtier or cleaner balls, nappier or slicker cloth, the speed of the shot, and the use of english on the cue ball, will all cause different squirt, throw, and swerve, and your system does not account for any of these, just to name a few factors that have influence on the slightly differening directions (which are often easily more than enough to easily miss pockets, even when fairly close) the object ball can travel on any given hit. The only way your system works is because of the human aim adjustments that are made based on "feel" and experience. That's just common sense. If you want more scientific and mathematical proof, just read a couple of the previous threads on the subject. There are explanations and diagrams galore that show how it is utterly impossible for it to work physically.

Dave Alciatore has stated that he has spent many hours on the phone with Hal and Dave has not or cannot disprove CTE.

That is not what he has said, I think you are twisting his words. He has proven that it cannot physically work. You guys just always say "there is more to it, more secrets," but then you never give them and have every excuse in the book why you can't. He simply says "I can't specifically prove the 'secret' wrong to you until to you until you tell me what the 'secret' is that you want me to disprove."

It is like you are claiming you can jump off the top of the Empire State building (with no parachute, no padding, and nothing to slow your fall) and land on the ground without getting hurt. Dave has proven that it is not possible, that you will get hurt for sure, but you keep claiming, "no, you don't understand, there are secrets to how we land that keeps us from getting hurt," but then you won't tell the secret and offer no proof of your claim. So he simply says, "well I can't specifically prove to you how your 'secret' landing will make no difference, and how you are still going to be injured anyway, if you won't or can't tell me what the 'secret' to the landing you are claiming is so I can give you the proof on it." Everything has already been proven beyond all doubt, CTE cannot, does not, and will not ever physically work.

The WHY is because when I did it by rote or by feel PRE-Hal then my mind would go, ok that's about right, just s hair to the left, ok gonna put some right spin on it so scooch a little to the right, ok ok wait for it , wait wait, now pull the trigger - - - - and sometimes I would guess right and sometimes I would guess wrong.

Then post-Hal I started doing the same thing every time and no more guessing and what happened - well now I am making the shots cleaner, making more of them, and making harder ones more consistently.

Has it ever occured to you that you are now just letting the most amazing computer in the world (your brain) do it's thing unencumbered and without second guessing or overthinking things, and that the use of the "system" is really just freeing your mind to make it's own calculations based on experience and feel? When a major league pitcher goes to throw a pitch, do you think he says to himself, "well, it seems that there is about a 4.7 mph cross wind from right to left at about a 30 degree head wind angle to the direction I am throwing the ball, and taking into consideration the coefficient of friction from the air itself, and my plan to throw this pitch at about 81 mph, I will aim at a point that is 11 feet 5 and 3/16ths of an inch above and 2 feet 7 and 31/64ths of an inch to the right of home plate and my pitch should drop in and just cross the front left corner of the plate for a strike"? Just how effective do you think that pitcher would be? Of course nobody does that, they just look where they want the ball to go and throw it and the brain and arm does the rest, just like in pool. No wonder you improved with the system. Your brain is free to just do its thing and make subconscious adjustments now without all that conscious thought getting in the way.

Lots of people have explained how it physically works. You just discount all of them.

They have all explained how it physically works, and the way every last one of them has explained it just flat doesn't work to pocket balls all the time, most of the time, or even the majority of the time on standard game type shots. Fact. For most shots under the system, human adjustments had to have been made by experience and feel for the ball to get pocketed.

Come and play me some and you will be saying "good shot" a lot while I put down a can of snake oil on your butt

You may or may not beat me, I have no idea. But if you do shoot straighter than me, and were using a CTE system, you will have won because you are better at adjusting your aim by feel than I am, or you have a better feel for adjusting your aim combined with a better stroke. It won't be because of your system. And in fact, anyone that can pocket two balls could roll over Efren Reyes if he were able to somehow force himself to only use a CTE bases system with no human "feel" adjustments allowed, which includes no subconscious ones. The system, if strictly followed with no adjustments, makes you miss more typical shots that would come up in a game than ones you would make.

I don't know why it's so hard to understand that SOMEONE somewhere could have figured out something WITHOUT putting pen to paper.

Happens all the time, and not hard to believe at all. It cannot however, happen with things that are impossible, but only with things that were possible but that were figured out first through experience rather than paper. Humans aren't going to start flying by flapping their arms, and likewise, CTE is physically impossible.

 

[Thunderball]

As produced by google search when "center to edge aiming billiards system" and found on billiardsforum.com

Hal Houle Point and Pivot System
The Hal Houle Point and Pivot system is a billiard aiming system that uses the geometry, layout, and design of a pool table, as well as some common assumptions to help you determine the appropriate spot on the object ball to strike with the cue ball. This method may not be for everyone, as it takes an analytical mind to wrap your head around some of the theories.

Hal Houle Point and Pivot System
To begin, lets examine some of the assumptions that are made about the pool table, the cue stick, the cue ball, and the object ball:

You must know where your pivot point is. (Cue)
All proper billiard tables have a 2:1 ratio, meaning that they are exactly twice as long as they are wide.
The corners of the table are always 90 degree angles.
A 45 degree angle is formed when a cue is placed from the side pocket to the corner pocket.
A 30 degree angle is formed when a cue is placed from the side pocket to the middle diamond on the same end rail.
A 15 degree angle is formed when a cue is placed from the side pocket to the first diamond on the same end rail.
When you add up these 3 angles, they total 90 degrees, which is the same angle formed by the table corners.
The cue ball relation to object ball relation shot angle is always either 15 degrees, 30 degrees, or 45 degrees.
There are only three angles for any type shot, on any table, no matter where the balls are placed. (I know this sounds absurd, but reserve this judgment until you read more.)
The Hal Houle Point and Pivot system uses these assumptions to deduce the proper angle you should take when shooting, but before we can complete the equation, there are a few more points to keep in mind here:

There are exactly two edges on the cue ball to aim with, and they are always located in exactly the same place on the cue ball.
There are exactly three spots on the object ball to set your aim toward, and they are always in exactly the same place on the object ball.
These two assumptions can lead us to calculate that two points on the cue ball multiplied by three points on the object ball totals six, which coincidentally is the same number of pockets on the table. From this we can reason that depending upon how the cue ball and object ball lie on the table in relation to each other, you can either pocket the object ball directly into a pocket or calculate a bank shot and sink it in any one of the remaining 5 pockets. The exact opposite is also true.

The balls may lie on the table in such a way that blocks certain shots, making a bank your only option. The Hal Houle point and pivot system takes this in to consideration. In fact, it provides that you will never have to look at any pocket or cushion while lining up the edge on the cue ball to the exact point on the object ball that needs to be struck. How can this be you ask? Well, you have only the three angles and so your only requirement at this point is to recognize whether your shot is a 15, 30, or 45 degree angle shot. This can be determined quickly and easily by aiming the edge of the cue ball to one of the three spots on the object ball. It will be obvious which object ball spot is correct, and there should be no doubt. You can be confident that any time one of the two edges on the cue ball is aimed toward any one of the three spots on the object ball, the object ball will surely be driven to a pocket.

Finding the Hal Houle Spots
At this point you are probably asking where these points are located, and how the heck you can find them. Good question.

On the cue ball you will find the spots on the left edge, and on the right edge. Which one you use will depend on whether you are cutting the object ball to the left or to the right.

On the object ball the three spots are the two quarters, and the center. Each of these spots face straight toward the edges of the cue ball, not facing toward the pocket.

Here is where it gets tricky so read this five or ten times so that you completely understand what is being said. When cutting to the left for 15 degrees, aim the cue ball's left edge at the object ball's left quarter. When cutting to the left for 30 degrees, aim the cue ball's left edge at the object ball's center. When you cut to the left for 45 degrees, aim the cue ball's left edge at the object ball's right quarter. When you cut to the right for 15 degrees, you aim the cue ball right edge at the object ball's right quarter. When you cut to the right for 30 degrees, you aim the cue ball's right edge at the object ball's center spot. When you cut to the right for 45 degrees, you aim the cue ball's right edge to the object ball's left quarter. Alright, now read this paragraph again.

When you aim the usual way, you will generally be coming close to these angles, but will usually be slightly off. Sometimes you'll be off enough for you to miss the shot. With this technique, you should be able to pocket any ball without looking at the pocket, or actually seeing it at all.

Just want to be clear that this is the system being debated? I suggest anyone interested google it as I did. Many a debate much like this one with firm and non believers.

 

[JB Cases]

This is not CTE. This is the "quarters" system Hal taught me years ago. It works too.

 

[Poolplaya9]

Please link to the proof that it doesn't work. I have seen no physical demonstration of such.

And I haven't seen someone in a traditional car try to drive only west out of San Francisco to get to New York City, but I can prove that it can't be done. As mentioned before, common sense and just thinking about the variables proves that it can't work, and there are more detailed scientific and mathematical explanations and diagrams that prove it in many other aiming threads. Did you do a search?

What system are you talking about? CTE? Describe to me the system that you are talking about.

ANY aiming system that uses fractions of the cue ball or object ball as reference points, which includes any system that uses the edges or centers of the balls as reference points, will be grossly inaccurate without human compensation, and in fact, with typical game type shots, will result in more misses than pocketed balls. If intellect alone doesn't allow you to see this, check the previous aiming threads for much proof that is spelled out in all the detail you want.

Um actually we are disputing it right now.

With absolutely no disrespect or insult intended, I probably should have said it is an undisputed fact among those with the requisite intellect or common sense.

Many people feel that it works physically without "feel" adjustments. So that fact is very much in dispute.

And many people still believe the earth is flat, and all kinds of other nonsense.
http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/

You can drive west from San Francisco to get to New York you just have to be driving the right vehicle for all substrates.

You know what I was talking about, and in fact, in this very same post, I specifically said a car.

Really? Then the proof of such ought to be easy to reference. Where is it? Show me please the place where CTE is laid out exactly as to how it is to be implemented ALONGSIDE the proof that it does not work.

I've already given it to you within the last couple of posts, and also told you where to find it in more detail. Have you done a search yet? Something tell me you are going to continue to claim the earth is flat regardless of how much proof somebody spoon feeds you.

I said I don't know HOW it works physically.

You said, "I don't KNOW 100% YET how CTE works from a math/geometry standpoint..." If you don't know how it works from a math/geomety (physical) standpoint, then you don't know IF it works from a math/geometry (physical) standpoint. You then say "but I know that it works from a practical standpoint." That is all you know, that it works (for you), but you have no idea how and assume it must be physical, because you can't imagine and don't want to admit that it is mental.

I know that it works because I can force myself to be entirely conscious and cognizant of my physical actions while using the CTE technique.

No you can't. First off nobody can completely override their subconscious. That is why it is called SUBconscious. You aren't even conscious of it. You can't override what you do not realize you are doing. Second off, the system does not and cannot physically work without adjustments, so if you are getting it to work, it has to be and can only be because you are making adjustments that you are either intentionally doing, or are not consciously aware of. I will take your word that you are not aware of it.

First of all if it works at all then there is a PHYSICAL reason because there is no way to trick yourself into always finding the ONLY LINE which exists for each shot to make the shot.

You don't think your brain is capable of calculating the correct angle and contact point? I sure do. Your system does not reliably come up with either one, as has been proven numerous times in many of these threads, and common sense alone should tell you that if you really think about it.

It's fairly easy to show that just being close is not enough.

That is exactly what I am saying. Your system just gets you in the general vicinity of the pocket on the majority of the shots, which again, is easy to prove and has been done many times in other threads. If you are pocketing balls consistently with this system, you are making aiming adjustments, whether or not you know it, or want to admit it.

As you surely know distance narrows the margin of error considerably. So if ANY method consistently puts the user on the right line then there is a PHYSICAL reason for it because the user cannot suddenly invent feelings he has never known.

You mean as long as you have been playing pool, and at your skill level, you still don't know the correct place to hit the object ball to pocket it? Hogwash. You miss sometimes because your stroke was bad, you overrode what your brain knew to do, you didn't stay focused, etc. It isn't because you didn't know what to do. And your system apparently helps you with some of these things, but it does not and cannot give you the perfect aim line for every shot, or even for most shots.

There is no placebo effect that will suddenly give me a skill that I don't have. There might be one that gives me confidence to do what I already know how to do but I guarantee you there is no placebo that makes you suddenly be able to make shots that you never could otherwise.

Unless you really suck, and I know you don't, there is no shot on the table that you don't know how to do and haven't done many times. You may not be able to do it consistently, but you know how to do it.

So if Hal Houle comes to me and says do this and this and this and I follow his instructions and am suddenly able to cut super thin balls, run balls up the rail, make balls mid-table with ease and more consistency then it clear that I MUST be on the RIGHT and CORRECT line to make those balls.

Confidence, a clear mind, and good focus and concentration do wonders for your consistency on shots that you already knew how to do but struggled with for the mentioned reasons. As already mentioned, it could be that having the starting reference point is even helping you to visualize and adjust the aim for the shot better, but the system without adjustment is not giving you the correct line every time, and not even most of the time.

Yes I knew that you would pick on "only" which is why I used it. Because I certainly believe that you were hedging by using "particularly".

Why would you try to argue something different than what I specifically stated? I think you just read what you wanted to see and don't want to admit it now that I pointed it out.

You have just made the point above that the player beneifts from getting in the vicinity (there is no vicinity, it is a narrow space where you can hit the object ball and make it.) - what do you think is responsible for getting players to the right line if not the system?

The player's brain is responsible. It is capable of much, much greater feats and calculations than that. Again, think baseball pitcher for a feat similar to aiming a shot in pool, and that still isn't anything compared to what the brain is capable of calculating.

Thus they have a PHYSICAL set of instruction which results in them putting their bridge hand down on the ONLY line from which they can make the ball.

With adjustments your bridge hand can be off one way or the other, and that is exactly what is happening. The bridge hand is not always in the exact perfect placement. You subconsciously make minor adjustments.

Subconscious adjustment is your way of explaining away the fact that it works and you can't figure it out either.

There is no intelligent disputing of the fact that the system physically does not work. The mind makes adjustments in your aim. Now why are some people more consistent with the system than without it? That is up for some dispute, but primarily because each person is different. With some it is more placebo effect and the resulting confidence, with some it is more the increased focus and bearing down, and with some it is having the clearer conscious mind, and perhaps with others there are even other factors in varying amounts in each individual.

But what are they focusing on? Help me out here? I have a laser cutter that I have to focus every time I run a job. If they are focusing on something then what it is? How is it possible for all of these weak players with no library of incredible shots to draw from, to somehow magically find the right line over and over when they couldn't do it with whatever technique they were using before learning CTE?

First off, you don't need to have ever played pool to be able to judge angles. Angles are angles no matter where they are. Second, it takes literally ten seconds to teach someone how to see the line of a shot. Draw a line from where you want the ball to go, and where it comes out of the middle of the object ball of the side that you can see, that is the point that contact needs to be made. The mind will quickly learn to adjust for throw, learn that you don't aim the center of the cue ball at teh contact point, etc. Aside from stroke, the initial problems are primarily focusing, and not overriding what your mind knows already knows to do. Third, I do not for one second believe a banger can be turned into a decent shot maker just by taking the couple of hours to learn the system.

In fact, if this system really worked, you could do this experiment. Take someone with known superior hand eye coordination and motor skills, like a world champion tennis player or golfer, but one who has never hit a ball on a pool table in their life, ever. Set up some absolutely straight in shots, and nothing but perfectly straight in shots, and let them shoot those perfectly straight in shots until they are making them consistently enough that you know their stroke is straight. Now teach them your system. Based on your claim, they should immediately be pocketing balls from everywhere and hardly ever missing. I can assure you that is not going to happen. They are going to be banging them into the rails left and right just like every other beginner, except now you can't blame it on their stroke like you usually would. Because of their superior hand eye coordination and motor skills their learning curve will surely be quicker than your average beginning player, but it will take them some time to be able to consistently make various cut shots because it will take some time to learn the real angles and contact points and to be able to subconsciously adjust from the unreliable system. Your argument predicts that they would be a shot making machine from the very first cut shot and never look back. Not going to happen, because the system doesn't work.

Where is the proof? You have said that it's been disproven then show us where that is?

Did you do a search yet? If so, what threads did you look in? I'm not going to spoon feed someone that is playing games.

Sure, but for you to say that CTE is all one big placebo is nonsense.

There you go again. I didn't say that. I said that it is one factor for some people. Not all the time for everybody.

Maybe getting to the right line and making so many incredible shots and feeling no fear anymore is what's giving the confidence. My wife has more confidence after I taught her to aim. No placebo needed. I taught her physically what to do and she does that repeatedly and now knows how to line up and shoot the ball in a straight line. No magic there.

So show us a video of her being a ball pocketing machine with this can't miss system. I'm sure it didn't happen, but regardless, this new confidence she exhibits can indeed be a placebo effect. That is exactly what the placebo effect would do here, give confidence, and we know that confidence counts for a lot.

So easy to just blanket everyone with the word placebo and subconscious isn't it? Now we are all pocket psychologists aren't we?

Well the system doesn't physically work, and if we are to believe that it helps anybody at all, ever, then it has to be at a mental level, and there are perfectly reasonable explanations that of mental effects that I have already pointed out. Exactly what it does for each individual and in what amounts is up for interpretation with each and every case.

 

[Poolplaya9]

Continued from previous post...

I have asked you at least three times to provide links to your incontrovertible proof that you say exists. Where is it?

I have told you more than three times to check the other threads, it's all there, in probably at least a third of them if not over half, so it won't take you long to find it.

How can you be lied to if you don't even know what the system is?

I know what the system is, and I know that it cannot physically work, and I know that the proponents of the systems claim that they do physically work, and I know that some of them are smart enough to know better, and therefore I know that while some are just slow and misinformed, some are flat out lying.

With all due respect, I'm probably about done with this because I know that you are one of those people that if you want to believe something is a certain way, no amount of proof is ever going to change your mind. All the proof anyone of intellect will ever need is in this thread and in a good portion of the other aiming threads in much greater detail to include simple diagrams and long explanations.

If you want to believe that the sky is green with purple and black polka dots, then that is what it is going to be to you, and no amount of photos of the sky, astronomy experts, experts on light, anyone telling you to just look up and see for yourself, explaining the color spectrum, explaining how colors are perceived by the eye, explaining how like refracts and disperses in the atmosphere and causes different colors, etc, is ever going to change your mind. You will always see what you want to see, but the facts are all out there and easy to find if you change your mind.

 

[JB Cases]

You don't have to video someone driving into the Pacific to prove that heading west out of San Francisco by car will not get you to New York City. Besides, if someone did video tape it, all you CTE users would just use your standard excuses, "well it didn' work because you don't know all the secrets," and "but I'm not going to tell you the secrets because it is too hard to explain," or because "I had to learn it on my own so I'm going to make you figure it out on your own too--this is top secret stuff, we don't just give it away (even though you do often give it away, but only to the gullible in private, NEVER in public in full)." The excuses you guys use to avoid telling about the system in detail in order to show how (you claim) it physically works are as predictable as a broken record.

Then I guess we are at the proverbial impasse. You already have it figured out what the defense will be when you can't show that you even know how to do CTE.

I just can't figure out how you can say something doesn't work when you don't know how to do it.

I mean if you could just explain the steps involved in CTE on here in detail and then explain where it breaks down we'd get a lot further.

It only takes a little thought and common sense to know it doesn't work. Dirtier or cleaner balls, nappier or slicker cloth, the speed of the shot, and the use of english on the cue ball, will all cause different squirt, throw, and swerve, and your system does not account for any of these, just to name a few factors that have influence on the slightly differening directions (which are often easily more than enough to easily miss pockets, even when fairly close) the object ball can travel on any given hit. The only way your system works is because of the human aim adjustments that are made based on "feel" and experience. That's just common sense. If you want more scientific and mathematical proof, just read a couple of the previous threads on the subject. There are explanations and diagrams galore that show how it is utterly impossible for it to work physically.

Where are they? I have seen diagrams that purport to show that CTE doesn't work but those people have not shown that they even understand what CTE is.

I have read the threads. I disagree with the people who post diagrams claiming it doesn't work based on their diagrams because those people have not shown that they even know what CTE is.

That is not what he has said, I think you are twisting his words. He has proven that it cannot physically work. You guys just always say "there is more to it, more secrets," but then you never give them and have every excuse in the book why you can't. He simply says "I can't specifically prove the 'secret' wrong to you until to you until you tell me what the 'secret' is that you want me to disprove."

Us guys? So you don't know what CTE is? Yet you are certain that it has been disproven? Sounds to me like you have just chosen a side to "believe" in rather than learning it for yourself.

It is like you are claiming you can jump off the top of the Empire State building (with no parachute, no padding, and nothing to slow your fall) and land on the ground without getting hurt. Dave has proven that it is not possible, that you will get hurt for sure, but you keep claiming, "no, you don't understand, there are secrets to how we land that keeps us from getting hurt," but then you won't tell the secret and offer no proof of your claim.

Where is Dave's physical proof that CTE does not work? I haven't seen it demonstrated on the pool table? I mean he has every other shot on the table on video so why not CTE? Where is the video where he says THIS IS CTE and shows us exactly what CTE is? Then he can go on to show us where it doesn't work. Point me to that video. So far all I have seen is paper diagrams claiming it can't work coupled with some theories about subconscious adjustment.

So he simply says, "well I can't specifically prove to you how your 'secret' landing will make no difference, and how you are still going to be injured anyway, if you won't or can't tell me what the 'secret' to the landing you are claiming is so I can give you the proof on it." Everything has already been proven beyond all doubt, CTE cannot, does not, and will not ever physically work.

If it were beyond all doubt then we would not be here would we? Apparently there are plenty of people in the world capable of picking up the phone and getting instructions on where to aim and then experiencing a great rise in their ability to pocket balls. That Hal Houle is one powerful mystic that he can make people better players simply by telling them to aim differently with a system that you say "cannot, does not, and will not ever physically work." That's some heavy duty hypnotic suggestion. By the way, I didn't get my CTE from Hal.

Has it ever occured to you that you are now just letting the most amazing computer in the world (your brain) do it's thing unencumbered and without second guessing or overthinking things, and that the use of the "system" is really just freeing your mind to make it's own calculations based on experience and feel?

Yes of course it has. It's a bit contradictory to say "using the system" and "freeing your mind" in the same sentence though in the context of trying to prove that a conscious act of aiming results in spectacular unconscious performance. It not exactly the same as visualizing your self surrounded by fluffy bunnies to clam your nerves and allow your subconscious to get into a solid rhythm. What it is to me is a concrete set of instructions that I follow which puts me on the correct line to make the ball, then not having to worry about whether or not I am on the right line I can and do focus on my stroke and tip placement.

When a major league pitcher goes to throw a pitch, do you think he says to himself, "well, it seems that there is about a 4.7 mph cross wind from right to left at about a 30 degree head wind angle to the direction I am throwing the ball, and taking into consideration the coefficient of friction from the air itself, and my plan to throw this pitch at about 81 mph, I will aim at a point that is 11 feet 5 and 3/16ths of an inch above and 2 feet 7 and 31/64ths of an inch to the right of home plate and my pitch should drop in and just cross the front left corner of the plate for a strike"?

No but I am certain that in baseball there are certain techniques and "systems" for aligning one's body to home plate in order to insure that you are in the space which allows you to throw consistently. I'd bet anything that there are a lot of pitchers who use all sorts of "systems" to help them be consistent.

Just how effective do you think that pitcher would be? Of course nobody does that, they just look where they want the ball to go and throw it and the brain and arm does the rest, just like in pool. No wonder you improved with the system. Your brain is free to just do its thing and make subconscious adjustments now without all that conscious thought getting in the way.

You mean conscious thought like sight down this line, put your cue here, pivot and shoot? Have you ever thought that it's conscious will teaches the brain what to do so that after a while you can see the right line automatically? For someone that struggles to aim and is always missing balls that they "felt" were dead on having a system which brings them to the right line every time trains their mind and body what that feels like. Now when they get down on a ball and it feels right it probably is.

They have all explained how it physically works, and the way every last one of them has explained it just flat doesn't work to pocket balls all the time, most of the time, or even the majority of the time on standard game type shots. Fact. For most shots under the system, human adjustments had to have been made by experience and feel for the ball to get pocketed.

Who has? What flat out doesn't work? Show me where anything that a CTE user has said while trying to explain how CTE works flat out doesn't work? Under what system? You haven't even shown yet that you even know how to do CTE so you wouldn't have any clue how to do anything "under the system" anyway.

You may or may not beat me, I have no idea. But if you do shoot straighter than me, and were using a CTE system, you will have won because you are better at adjusting your aim by feel than I am, or you have a better feel for adjusting your aim combined with a better stroke. It won't be because of your system.

I will have won because I pocketed more money balls than you and the reason I can pocket more money balls is that I have a repeatable and accurate system that takes all the guesswork out of aiming. My only limitation now is my vision and personal perception.

And in fact, anyone that can pocket two balls could roll over Efren Reyes if he were able to somehow force himself to only use a CTE bases system with no human "feel" adjustments allowed, which includes no subconscious ones. The system, if strictly followed with no adjustments, makes you miss more typical shots that would come up in a game than ones you would make.

What system makes you miss balls? CTE? Do you know how to do CTE? If so then please detail it here for all of us. I can't follow how you can make a claim that something doesn't work when you do not know how to implement it. You make all sorts of claims about something you yourself cannot explain. You see I have the system, I know how it works, I can choose to explain it in as much detail as I want to. You obviously do not have it and have no clue ow to explain it.

Happens all the time, and not hard to believe at all. It cannot however, happen with things that are impossible, but only with things that were possible but that were figured out first through experience rather than paper. Humans aren't going to start flying by flapping their arms, and likewise, CTE is physically impossible.

Well if CTE is physically impossible then show us all that this is true. On one side we have many proponents on this board who use CTE and say that it's the nuts and that it works. On the other side we have people like you who claim that it cannot work yet you offer zero physical proof to back up your claim.

We aren't talking theory here. Dave Segal and others have put up videos of themselves shooting balls in and telling us that they use CTE. You have instructors who stand up and say that CTE works. You have pro players who say CTE works.

On one hand you claim that CTE has merit because it puts the player in the vicinity of the right line to make the shot then on the other hand you say that if CTE is strictly followed it absolutely cannot work. I will say this - if CTE works so powerfully as a subconscious stimulant to take the player from "the vicinity" to the exact line and thus makes people better because of that then it's the most powerful form of positive self-delusion in the history of the world.

I will be happy to delude myself into making more balls when I play, winning more and getting that "high you can't buy" feeling that comes from being successful at pool for the rest of my life. If you're right then that right there is proof enough that CTE works and works better than anything else.

I think that you're wrong. I think that CTE gets to you to the exact spot to make the balls when applied correctly, just like ghost ball does.

I will figure out a way to prove it. Since I am pretty sure that you nor anyone else can disprove it on the pool table.

If you can then take my $500.

 

[JB Cases]

Continued from previous post...






I have told you more than three times to check the other threads, it's all there, in probably at least a third of them if not over half, so it won't take you long to find it.



I know what the system is, and I know that it cannot physically work, and I know that the proponents of the systems claim that they do physically work, and I know that some of them are smart enough to know better, and therefore I know that while some are just slow and misinformed, some are flat out lying.

With all due respect, I'm probably about done with this because I know that you are one of those people that if you want to believe something is a certain way, no amount of proof is ever going to change your mind. All the proof anyone of intellect will ever need is in this thread and in a good portion of the other aiming threads in much greater detail to include simple diagrams and long explanations.

If you want to believe that the sky is green with purple and black polka dots, then that is what it is going to be to you, and no amount of photos of the sky, astronomy experts, experts on light, anyone telling you to just look up and see for yourself, explaining the color spectrum, explaining how colors are perceived by the eye, explaining how like refracts and disperses in the atmosphere and causes different colors, etc, is ever going to change your mind. You will always see what you want to see, but the facts are all out there and easy to find if you change your mind.

No, I walk out and look at the sky for myself.

Jsut like with CTE - a few weeks ago I decided to learn it. I already know from personal experience that the other system and technique for applying english that Hal taught me that aiming systems (at least the ones I know) work, and that back hand english works.

I decided to figure it out and with a little help from a few folks I have it. Is it ingrained yet? Nope but it coming day by day.

I didn't participate in the theoretical discussion of CAN IT WORK? I simply tried it on the table and found that it does work.

If I want to I can explain in minute detail why I think that it works and I might be right or I might not. Not being geometrically apt and sucking at math I would basically be grasping at terms to explain it. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't work.

I know that you feel I am dumber than you. It's clear in how you talk to me and all other people who use CTE. It's clear that we are not "persons of intellect". So I bid you adieu, machst gut and lass dich freuen im Leben. Even stupid people can learn German you see.

I am sure that in other discussions you can find people who are on your level intellectually and who believe as you believe.

I would make the suggestion to you, although I know it's not my place as your inferior, to learn all about that which you seek to disprove. Typically one should be well versed in the subject matter in order to disprove it.

When you can tell us what CTE is then we will listen to your proof that it doesn't work.

 

[JB Cases]

PS, regarding the sky's colors, in the Air Force I was a weather observer repsonsible for putting up extrememly accurate data on what the weather was doing at my location.

 

[JB Cases]

So show us a video of her being a ball pocketing machine with this can't miss system. I'm sure it didn't happen, but regardless, this new confidence she exhibits can indeed be a placebo effect. That is exactly what the placebo effect would do here, give confidence, and we know that confidence counts for a lot.

The "system" I taught her is Ghost Ball because it is the easiest to explain to a beginner.

You however reacted exactly as I though you would in assuming that I meant CTE. The new confidence comes ONLY from KNOWING where to aim when she had no clue before.

No placebo replaces real world knowledge and real experience. The placebo effect is in place when people FEEL something that is not there. For example if you give one person LSD and give the other person a sugar pill and tell them to write down or tape record what they "see" you will get vastly different results. Now the guy who took the placebo may very well imagine that he is feeling something and he may report that he is "tripping" but the actual report will be quite different than the person who is really tripping.

Now the body has natural painkillers called endorphins and the body can be tricked into releasing the endorphins with a placebo. It has also been proven that people can will themselves into a trance state wherein they are releasing these endorphins in order to withstand the pain of religious ceremonies. They had no clue that this was the physiological reaction of their bodies, to them it's mystical.

In this case my wife cannot feel her way to being a better player. She IS a better player than she WAS by virtue of the fact that she now has a c method to aim with that is easy for beginners to understand despite it's inherent flaws.

However if I had shown a video of her before and after states and said that I taught her a super secret system to make any shot you would have been all over it saying it's impossible and that no such system exists. However ghost ball is supposedly geometrically sound and that which allows any player who does it right to make any shot.

 

[ThePoliteSniper]

It not a religion. It's a series of steps.

Step 1. - Sight the center of the cueball to the edge of the object ball which is farthest AWAY from the pocket you want the object ball to go into.

Step 2. - Align your cue to the edge of the cue ball and put you bridge hand down.

Step 3 - Pivot your cue back to center and your bridge hand is ON THE RIGHT LINE to make the ball.

Simple right? Well this is all I am doing on every shot.

I'm going to ask this for the last time, because it has been ignored in the other 70 pages long thread.

I understand step 1.

Step 2: Align your cue to the edge of the cb... aiming at what? The edge of the ob? The center of the ob?

Step 3: It doesn't matter what your answer is on step 2. This will only work, if your bridge hand is at a certain distance from the cueball.

 

[lfigueroa]

I think it's hilarious that you want to call us all fools Lou when we report that that our shotmaking has vastly improved by learning another method.

I didn't call anyone a "fool." And, I don't doubt your shot making improves when you focus in on the balls better, for whatever reason.

Lou Figueroa