Pivoting and CTE

[lfigueroa]

I would just like to point out that in all these CTE discussions, in which players report trying it and seeing immediate improvements, there has been one missing observation (unless I missed it somewhere along the line).

The improvement might be coming from the pivoting advocated by the proponents of CTE. Not because it has diddly-do-da to do with CTE or aiming, but because it is standardizing the players approach to the table (PSR) and helping get the cue away from the players body and improving their set up by freeing up the grip arm. Then again, it could just be me, but I wanted to throw that out there.

Lou Figueroa

 

[ShootingArts]

the one thing I don't like about CTE or BHE

I would just like to point out that in all these CTE discussions, in which players report trying it and seeing immediate improvements, there has been one missing observation (unless I missed it somewhere along the line).

The improvement might be coming from the pivoting advocated by the proponents of CTE. Not because it has diddly-do-da to do with CTE or aiming, but because it is standardizing the players approach to the table (PSR) and helping get the cue away from the players body and improving their set up by freeing up the grip arm. Then again, it could just be me, but I wanted to throw that out there.

Lou Figueroa

Lou,

CTE and similar systems and BHE all have the same flaw. I like to come down on the right line with my entire stance in position. Then if I move the cue all around I have undone that perfect set-up I had to begin with. I use parallel english coming down on the line of the shot including english and I don't do a bunch of shifting or twisting when I am down on the shot. If, as some CTE advocates claim, you can't see the shot line until the final pivot how in the world can you come down on the shot line?

Hu

 

[Luxury]

Is there any way we can find a few sets of twins who have never seen a pool table and have one learn CTE and the other learn by ghost ball/feel/memory and see what happens? I think that would be pretty cool.

 

[sfleinen]

Twins are not a very good control group

Is there any way we can find a few sets of twins who have never seen a pool table and have one learn CTE and the other learn by ghost ball/feel/memory and see what happens? I think that would be pretty cool.

Luxury:

A great idea when viewed topically, but the inherent problem with it is that not even twins themselves are similar enough to warrant using them as a "control." Living under the same roof, giving the exact same parental treatment (devoid of any parental "favoritism"), two twins can show -- at a very young age, much less as they grow/mature -- they are VERY DIFFERENT, personality-wise, intelligence-wise, gender preference, etc. The only aspect they would have in common is their physical appearance, genetics, etc. As you know in playing pool, the player's physique has nothing to do with playing ability, creativity, execution, etc.

I even know of two twins that, due to food preference growing up, actually grew to different sizes (one was a vegetarian, the other was a meat eater -- the meat eater is the taller/bulkier of the two).

-Sean

 

[Roger Long]

Lou,

CTE and similar systems and BHE all have the same flaw. I like to come down on the right line with my entire stance in position. Then if I move the cue all around I have undone that perfect set-up I had to begin with. I use parallel english coming down on the line of the shot including english and I don't do a bunch of shifting or twisting when I am down on the shot. If, as some CTE advocates claim, you can't see the shot line until the final pivot how in the world can you come down on the shot line?

Hu

Hu,

I think Lou has unlocked one of the real "secrets" to CTE. Without the pivot, it is only one more method of viewing the shot, but with the pivot, it helps bring the cue onto that "right line" you mentioned. I think Lou is also correct in that the pivot helps to put some clearance between the grip hand and the body. However, many people, like yourself, do not need CTE or BHE in order to play well. :thumbup:

Roger

 

[SpiderWebComm]

The pivot is required geometrically to get to the aim line. However, Lou is correct in many ways. The pivot helps someone focus on the psr by forcing the correct pre-pivot alignment.

 

[A.J. DeAngelo]

Luxury:

A great idea when viewed topically, but the inherent problem with it is that not even twins themselves are similar enough to warrant using them as a "control." Living under the same roof, giving the exact same parental treatment (devoid of any parental "favoritism"), two twins can show -- at a very young age, much less as they grow/mature -- they are VERY DIFFERENT, personality-wise, intelligence-wise, gender preference, etc. The only aspect they would have in common is their physical appearance, genetics, etc. As you know in playing pool, the player's physique has nothing to do with playing ability, creativity, execution, etc.

I even know of two twins that, due to food preference growing up, actually grew to different sizes (one was a vegetarian, the other was a meat eater -- the meat eater is the taller/bulkier of the two).

-Sean

Good observations, Dr. Mengele.

 

[JB Cases]

I would just like to point out that in all these CTE discussions, in which players report trying it and seeing immediate improvements, there has been one missing observation (unless I missed it somewhere along the line).

The improvement might be coming from the pivoting advocated by the proponents of CTE. Not because it has diddly-do-da to do with CTE or aiming, but because it is standardizing the players approach to the table (PSR) and helping get the cue away from the players body and improving their set up by freeing up the grip arm. Then again, it could just be me, but I wanted to throw that out there.

Lou Figueroa

Actually that observation has been made many times. If all CTE or any other method does is to make a player do teh same thing every time and that same thing results in pocketing more balls consistently then it's a great thing in my opinion.

I will definitely 100% agree that using CTE has forced me to be much more consistent in my approach, stance and delivery. And if it's not CTE that is helping me to find that aiming line but instead is just making me be consistent in getting there then I am still happy and still playing better.

However that said, the thing you keep glossing over is the when the players report improvements they also often report that they are now able to make shots which were very inconsistent to impossible for them previously.

You know those extreme backward cuts that Efren makes so easily? The shots up the rail from a steep angle? Those middle of the table shots on the scratch angle? - I know from my own experience which shots I hate to be faced with.

With CTE (and other systems) I face those shots with confidence instead of trepidation and my pocketing percentages have gone up.

So I like to chalk up the improvement to both things - A. the system helps me get to the proper aiming line and B. because I feel confident and relaxed about the shot I can focus on my stroke and delivery.

 

[sfleinen]

Good observations, Dr. Mengele.

Josef Mengele?? Are you serious? I'm a bit confused as to the comparison, but I'll walk the high road and take it to mean you perhaps meant it as a compliment, albeit with a very dark bend in the humor.

 

[cookie man]

I would just like to point out that in all these CTE discussions, in which players report trying it and seeing immediate improvements, there has been one missing observation (unless I missed it somewhere along the line).

The improvement might be coming from the pivoting advocated by the proponents of CTE. Not because it has diddly-do-da to do with CTE or aiming, but because it is standardizing the players approach to the table (PSR) and helping get the cue away from the players body and improving their set up by freeing up the grip arm. Then again, it could just be me, but I wanted to throw that out there.

Lou Figueroa

If you hip-pivot the arm stays the same distance away from the body. If you arm pivot then you hit your body. Try again LOU.

 

[cookie man]

Sean, Roger, Lou, does any non CTE user do anything resembling a pivot for any of their shots?

 

[sfleinen]

Sean, Roger, Lou, does any non CTE user do anything resembling a pivot for any of their shots?

cookie man:

I don't know why you're including me on this, as I only commented on the "twins as a control" thing pointed out by Luxury (i.e. really had nothing to do with CTE itself). And, I've been quiet on this whole CTE/aiming-thread topic not only because that "distraction called work -- the day job" has been keeping me inundated, but also because I'd come to the realization that none of this bickering, debate, and misplaced "passion" amounts to any kind of diddly squat in the real world.

The real question is, does method so-and-so help you? Does it interest you? If so, great -- pursue it. If not, or if you disagree with it, state your opinion, and be done with it. None of this back-and-forth is going to be world-changing in any way -- you're not going to convince the person on the other end. I wish folks would stop with the "my Kool Aid is better tasting than your Kool Aid" behavior.

Oh, you had a question? Let me answer it. I'm a ghostballer, a hundred ball runner in 14.1 straight pool, and a player with snooker fundamentals. No, once I get down on the shot, my fundamentals lock-in, and the stroke doesn't waver or "pivot" at all. My arm/stroke rides on straight traintracks once I'm down on a shot. You seem to ask the question as if to imply, however gently, that a "pivot" is somehow "mandatory" to be a "proper" player. If I'm not misunderstanding you, and that is what you mean, I offer to you to watch other [more demanding than pool, precision-wise] pocket-based cue sports such as snooker or Russian Pyramid. Then, you tell me if you see *ANY* of these players use a pivot-based aiming system. Watch some Ronnie O'Sullivan or Evgeny Stalev. An exercise for the reader.

Respectfully,
-Sean

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou,

CTE and similar systems and BHE all have the same flaw. I like to come down on the right line with my entire stance in position. Then if I move the cue all around I have undone that perfect set-up I had to begin with. I use parallel english coming down on the line of the shot including english and I don't do a bunch of shifting or twisting when I am down on the shot. If, as some CTE advocates claim, you can't see the shot line until the final pivot how in the world can you come down on the shot line?

Hu

I totally understand, Hu. All the movement for the sake of the aiming system makes no sense, if your objective is yo create an accurate, on-line, consistent and repeatable stroke. I don't do it the way you do, but my whole PSR is designed to get me on the right line in a consistent manner. I start adding pivots and all that and I would be a dead duck.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Is there any way we can find a few sets of twins who have never seen a pool table and have one learn CTE and the other learn by ghost ball/feel/memory and see what happens? I think that would be pretty cool.

You would seem to have access to quite the set of twins already, judging from your avatar

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Hu,

I think Lou has unlocked one of the real "secrets" to CTE. Without the pivot, it is only one more method of viewing the shot, but with the pivot, it helps bring the cue onto that "right line" you mentioned. I think Lou is also correct in that the pivot helps to put some clearance between the grip hand and the body. However, many people, like yourself, do not need CTE or BHE in order to play well. :thumbup:

Roger

OK, so is it the secret to CTE or is it more just the secret to good pool?

Lou Figueroa
chicken
egg
omelet

 

[lfigueroa]

The pivot is required geometrically to get to the aim line. However, Lou is correct in many ways. The pivot helps someone focus on the psr by forcing the correct pre-pivot alignment.

But, but... if we can accept that all pool players are different and not created equal, does it not make sense that the pivot, while it could help some, might hinder others?

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Actually that observation has been made many times. If all CTE or any other method does is to make a player do teh same thing every time and that same thing results in pocketing more balls consistently then it's a great thing in my opinion.

I will definitely 100% agree that using CTE has forced me to be much more consistent in my approach, stance and delivery. And if it's not CTE that is helping me to find that aiming line but instead is just making me be consistent in getting there then I am still happy and still playing better.

However that said, the thing you keep glossing over is the when the players report improvements they also often report that they are now able to make shots which were very inconsistent to impossible for them previously.

You know those extreme backward cuts that Efren makes so easily? The shots up the rail from a steep angle? Those middle of the table shots on the scratch angle? - I know from my own experience which shots I hate to be faced with.

With CTE (and other systems) I face those shots with confidence instead of trepidation and my pocketing percentages have gone up.

So I like to chalk up the improvement to both things - A. the system helps me get to the proper aiming line and B. because I feel confident and relaxed about the shot I can focus on my stroke and delivery.

Like I said, I might have missed it -- I don't typically wade through all the CTE ca-ca

But if we are in agreement that doing things the same way, every shot, is the bottom line issue, and can accept that a pivot, while good for some, might be bad for others, then maybe (probably) CTE can actually hinder a player's progress. Even allowing that it might help someone face certain shots with confidence, if it is hindering their stroke from being all it can be, then basically CTE ultimately becomes a handicap.

It does a player no good if he can cut a shot backwards, but can't run any balls. And if CTE, what with the pivoting, is causing some misalignment in the player's body mechanics, it is then a bad thing.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

If you hip-pivot the arm stays the same distance away from the body. If you arm pivot then you hit your body. Try again LOU.

Air pivot, arm pivot, bridge pivot, hip pivot, butt pivot, knee pivot, big toe pivot -- it's immaterial to the point I was really making. Each and everything you do with one part of your body effects something, or many other things, that your body ends up doing when it comes to executing a pool stroke. Other than the issue of consistency in your setup, chances are that unless you just happen to be the guy for whom all this pivoting puts you on exactly the right line and creates your ultimate perfect setup (what are the odds of that?) it's going to cripple your game.

Lou Figueroa

 

[8pack]

I totally understand, Hu. All the movement for the sake of the aiming system makes no sense, if your objective is yo create an accurate, on-line, consistent and repeatable stroke. I don't do it the way you do, but my whole PSR is designed to get me on the right line in a consistent manner. I start adding pivots and all that and I would be a dead duck.

Lou Figueroa

I would disagree with you.From what i have read on this forum you seem to be a pretty good player.I think your selling the system short and yourself .
I really believe a good player like yourself could really work this into your
game. You dont have to change your game but you will find a different way at looking at certain shot's .

 

[lfigueroa]

Sean, Roger, Lou, does any non CTE user do anything resembling a pivot for any of their shots?

Actually, if you saw me shoot, I do do something resembling a pivot. But I do it in a very specific fashion that has nothing to do with CTE or aiming. It is just my way of getting myself to create my bestest setup in terms of: bridging; creating a level cue; putting my grip in a particular space relative to my body; and to help me create a particular warm up and final stroke tempo.

Thanks for asking

Lou Figueroa
has had half a dozen
80 ball runs this week
damnit