This Aiming System Crap is Killing Me


You post has some merit, may I ask you if you use any "system", or do you just bang away, and pray?

Prayer is always the best way. Before each tourney this is how I Pray:

" Please God don't let me effk up so bad that I look like a fool."

In his divine wisdom He has not yet met my request but I continue
praying with the hope that some day He will help me out just to
shut me up.

Secretly though, I use The ,"Holy ghost Ball," aiming system. It's acronym
is HGBA&P. ( Holy Ghost Ball Aim & Pray) The dvd sells for $69.99 at all
Christian Library sites. 10 percent discount for Forum members.
 
JB, you go so far as to say people are knocking that don't believe as you do. I have not posted one thing on any of the many threads about aiming systems except this one. Craw, simply started a thread asking if people disagreed with it. I gave my opinion, thats all. You then go so far as to say people should go some where else, or was it change the channel if you dare disagree with you. Maybe Craw should have posted in the header let the people talk/give their opinion without being knocked by those that feel no one should have a different opinion than their's. If you are learning thats great,but i also had away of learning just as most likely 100% of all the great players have learned. I also wasn't saying there is no systems,i was speaking about your aiming system. Also, you don't have to take my word for being a exoldschoolpro, i play about the 7 under my old speed,but i would be more than willing to play you some sets and don't have a clue what your speed is. I would guess very high by the way you say you can pocket balls from everywhere with ease. I will have to rely on doing everything by feel! Lets see which system holds up for $500.00 a set!
 
Actually they could be setting up the same way every time. It is entirely possible that a person can see the perfect aiming line for every cut shot to the right and not see it for every cut shot to the left. It's possible that a person can see the balls clear and sharp at six feet and those same balls are fuzzy and unclear at three feet.

No matter what the player must AIM somehow. They must pick a line and get down on it whether that line is right or wrong.

As for the idea that a person who makes ten straight in shots in a row shouldn't have any problem with aiming.....I disagree with that entirely.

There once was a guy who would win a lot of money betting you that he wouldn't miss 5 spot shots out of a hundred. Then when you lost that bet he'd bet you more money that he wound't miss 5 out of a thousand. He could shoot spot shots all day. But move the object ball anywhere else and his make percentage goes in the toilet. He wasn't known as a good player but he could nail those spot shots.

I am 100% confident that I can train a raw beginner to make straight in shots and satisfy your 10 for 10 proposition. I won't allow them to learn cut shots just the straight ins. As a hypothetical if I did that and they were able to do your 10 for 10 straight ins what do you think that their percentages would then be on cut shots?

By the way - there is a system for straight in shots (A couple of them actually) that is the dead nuts.

:-)

What kind consistency are we talking about here? I'm not talking about spending 1-3 hours shooting straight ins until they make 10 in a row or even 30 minutes, I mean within a couple of tries. And just to make sure we're on the same page, by long shots I mean OB in the centre of the table, CB 3-5 inches from the end rail (so comfortable cueing). My point is simply perfect stroke and alignement makes the aiming process considerably easier.

Under normal circumstances a player on his way to achieving this would have learned to aim at some point. Otherwise what have they been practicing?

But to answer your hypothetical I would suspect a player who has never attempted a cut shot but can make 10 out of 10 straight ins, would probably manage 2-4 out of 10 half ball hits (maybe more or less depending on the distance). A raw beginner with no playing experience will manage 0-2 I think.

I can completely understand the spot shot guy. I'm guessing he doesn't aim where you or I do for spot shots, because he is probably compensating for a poor delivery or alignement (but can do both consistently the same way).
 
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JB, you go so far as to say people are knocking that don't believe as you do. I have not posted one thing on any of the many threads about aiming systems except this one. Craw, simply started a thread asking if people disagreed with it. I gave my opinion, thats all. You then go so far as to say people should go some where else, or was it change the channel if you dare disagree with you. Maybe Craw should have posted in the header let the people talk/give their opinion without being knocked by those that feel no one should have a different opinion than their's. If you are learning thats great,but i also had away of learning just as most likely 100% of all the great players have learned. I also wasn't saying there is no systems,i was speaking about your aiming system. Also, you don't have to take my word for being a exoldschoolpro, i play about the 7 under my old speed,but i would be more than willing to play you some sets and don't have a clue what your speed is. I would guess very high by the way you say you can pocket balls from everywhere with ease. I will have to rely on doing everything by feel! Lets see which system holds up for $500.00 a set!

Sorry I don't make anonymous games. If you want to post your real name so I can judge your speed for myself then we can make a fari game and then we can see which "system" holds up better.

The "knocking" comes from people who want to tell other people that they are foolish for wanting to try something new. I would NEVER tell you not to try something to help your game out UNLESS I had tried it and found it to be useless. Even then I would qualify my opinion by stating that the new method might work great for you.

You are going to sit there and tell me that YOUR WAY of learning the game is the way 100% of professional class players learned? Seriously?

That's about the same as Hal saying 100% of professional players use HIS systems.

I can tell you that I have talked aiming with several professionals and in fact they don't all aim the same the way.

Until I know your name you are just anonymous and your content about what you do or have done is meaningless. I can make up a screen name and talk about how it was in the majors all day.

I will play you some just as soon as you produce some credible I.D.
 
What kind consistency are we talking about here? I'm not talking about spending 1-3 hours shooting straight ins until they make 10 in a row or even 30 minutes, I mean within a couple of tries. And just to make sure we're on the same page, by long shots I mean OB in the centre of the table, CB 3-5 inches from the end rail (so comfortable cueing). My point is simply perfect stroke and alignement makes the aiming process considerably easier.

Under normal circumstances a player on his way to achieving this would have learned to aim at some point. Otherwise what have they been practicing?

But to answer your hypothetical I would suspect a player who has never attempted a cut shot but can make 10 out of 10 straight ins, would probably manage 2-4 out of 10 half ball hits (maybe more or less depending on the distance). A raw beginner with no playing experience will manage 0-2 I think.

I can completely understand the spot shot guy. I'm guessing he doesn't aim where you or I do for spot shots, because he is probably compensating for a poor delivery or alignement (but can do both consistently the same way).

Well then I agree with you that a player who has learned to aim and can deliver consistently through proper fundamentals doesn't really need to change to any thing other than what they are using. We aren't talking about that player here.

We are talking about the player who has trouble on certain shots, is inconsistent but has decent fundamentals. The guy who gets down on the shot with the feeling that he is perfect and still misses.

It's been proven adequately I think that a cue stick deflects variably depending on how it's oriented in relation to the shot. Thus before the introduction of truly radially consistent cues it was certainly true that players could miss shots that they were otherwise perfectly lined up on due to the variable deflection of their cue. But most people did not know this. Some did. Jimmy Reid marked his cue so that it was in the same direction each time he addressed the ball.

So I firmly believe that the same thing applies to aiming in general. You can take a person who has perfect fundamentals, straight stroke, great stance, perfect follow through, etc... and that person can still miss balls because they aren't aligning themselves properly from shot to shot. Why NOT? Maybe they can't always imagine the ghost ball just right - they think that they do. Maybe they see the balls one way when facing a shot to the right and the other way for a shot to the left.

And yes, they can overcome a lot of this through repetition. The idea would be that IF they see shots to left differently that after shooting a couple hundred balls they would have figured out the adjustment. And I bet most people do it this way as it's the only way they have.

This is where some systems come in. Not only CTE, but Joe Tucker's numbers, Contact Point Lines, Light Reflection etc.... For some people these things work to help them find the right line no matter if the shot is to the right or to the left.

I know a guy - we will call him Goofy George - who specializes in going to bars and poolrooms and playing with the worst styles you can imagine. He has a whole traveling chest of things he can do to make you think he couldn't drop a ball and hit the floor much less make a ball in the hole. George has the art down so well that players fight each other for the right to spot him balls, games, odds on the money etc. He has a secret though, he has a method to aim that allows him to line up perfect every time. So when he wants to make a shot he can step into it dead perfect and if he wants to miss he simply steps in slightly off. The whole time he keeps up this "act" and by doing so he "lucks" balls in, he misses widely and leaves his opponent tough, he misses hangers and makes that long tough cut - all the while his opponent is *****ing about how lucky he is.

Goofy George is proof positive that you don't have to be dead perfect on your set up and your pre-shot routine as long as you can get down and fire on the right aiming line.

Does Goofy George win heads-up matches with great players. Sometimes yes and sometimes no. When he plays those players he plays straight up without all the theatrics and of course he faces the same pressures as any other player getting heat put on him. If he is on the stall and manages to trap a good player then he wins easily. If he is playing a decent amateur or below then they usually have no chance.

Now I don't really approve of Goofy George's hustling tactics. He told me that playing pool for money is like robbing people without a gun. But what I learned from him is that if you have a reliable way to aim THEN everything else falls into place and you don't have to look like a textbook perfect player at the table.
 
I don't understand. You are saying that it's impossible for a person to have great fundamentals but also be unable to line up correctly on the aiming line each time?

Basically yes. Almost. I have never seen an average amateur player with great highly consistent fundamentals. Word consistent is the key here. Many look great and appear to be 'perfect' and in fact shoot many shots 'perfect'. However, in reality they're not good enough to become great players because they too often screw up something on final cue delivery, and this shows up especially in critical moments at tournaments, etc. I just think that most missed shots come due to poor and inconsistent execution, rather than bad angle judgment.

Of course, you can misjudge the angle too, but I don't think this type of error is nearly as frequent. Just my opinion.
 
In theory, a pre-shot routine goes like this:
- visualize the aiming line
- get in line with the shot
- get into your stance (whatever that is)
- do warm up strokes and check if your aim is correct
- optional you could make very slight adjustments, but if you are not in the correct line, you should stand up and start over
- if everything feels right, shoot
- win

I'd guess that a player with good mechanics will see if he is in line with the shot or not. And if he is not, he will start over again, until he is in line. If that doesn't happen on the second try, there is probably something wrong with his mechanics.
If you play like this all the time, you will develop a good sense of where the correct line is. I don't know. I'm not an expert instructor, just a student.
 
I can only speak for my personal game:

When I figured out how to see shots and knew I was right that had a huge effect on my stance, alignment, correct delivery position and stroke. A person who does not know likely will have nervousness or apprenhension in the stroke and be prone to either hitting the shot like a blacksmith or missing the shot altogether. For me the aim piece of the puzzle is extremely important due to those reasons. When you know youre right with what you do and youre not guessing your confidence is higher and the other important things become your focus.

aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com

336robin:thumbup:
 
In theory, a pre-shot routine goes like this:
- visualize the aiming line

What is the proper way to do this? What if you didn't have to imagine (visualize) but instead could measure the line?

- get in line with the shot

How exactly do you get in line? What gets in line?
- get into your stance (whatever that is)

After you "get in line"?

- do warm up strokes and check if your aim is correct

So you are checking your aim when you are already down on the shot?

- optional you could make very slight adjustments, but if you are not in the correct line, you should stand up and start over

So if the player does not KNOW that they are right they should keep guessing until the feel it's right?

- if everything feels right, shoot

What if it it feels right but it's wrong?


I'd guess that a player with good mechanics will see if he is in line with the shot or not. And if he is not, he will start over again, until he is in line. If that doesn't happen on the second try, there is probably something wrong with his mechanics.
If you play like this all the time, you will develop a good sense of where the correct line is. I don't know. I'm not an expert instructor, just a student.

Sounds good in theory and I am sure that this approach has resulted in a lot of table time trying it out. I know I put in a lot of time on it trying to get good doing just what you said.

Now, like tonight I use my little aiming system to find the aiming line which I know is right and with it I make freaking fantastic shots because my fundamentals are there AND I am on the right aiming line.
 
PM sent JB. I'm not a keyboard warrior and will do what i say i will do. No,i'm not saying every top player aims the same way,but i am saying that all of them hit many many balls to learn their way of aiming. I don't know if i'm posting on the right thread. I thought this was a thread craw started. Whats that word? Oh yea,highjacking. I think its very telling that someone else starts a thread that you don't agree with,but yet you have to respond to every person who made a post! Did you respond in a nice way to those who disagree with you on your threads? Take it easy,its only a game!
 
Sorry I don't make anonymous games. If you want to post your real name so I can judge your speed for myself then we can make a fari game and then we can see which "system" holds up better.

The "knocking" comes from people who want to tell other people that they are foolish for wanting to try something new. I would NEVER tell you not to try something to help your game out UNLESS I had tried it and found it to be useless. Even then I would qualify my opinion by stating that the new method might work great for you.

You are going to sit there and tell me that YOUR WAY of learning the game is the way 100% of professional class players learned? Seriously?

That's about the same as Hal saying 100% of professional players use HIS systems.

I can tell you that I have talked aiming with several professionals and in fact they don't all aim the same the way.

Until I know your name you are just anonymous and your content about what you do or have done is meaningless. I can make up a screen name and talk about how it was in the majors all day.

I will play you some just as soon as you produce some credible I.D.

First. I never said to not try ANYTHING.

Second, by saying that "they don't all aim the same way." proves my point that one "system" is just plain far-fetched. NO one thing works for everyone.
 
First. I never said to not try ANYTHING.

Second, by saying that "they don't all aim the same way." proves my point that one "system" is just plain far-fetched. NO one thing works for everyone.

I wasn't talking to you.

And NO ONE who uses aiming systems has said that it's one size fits all. However you did start this thread with the specific intention of KNOCKING systems.
 
PM sent JB. I'm not a keyboard warrior and will do what i say i will do. No,i'm not saying every top player aims the same way,but i am saying that all of them hit many many balls to learn their way of aiming. I don't know if i'm posting on the right thread. I thought this was a thread craw started. Whats that word? Oh yea,highjacking. I think its very telling that someone else starts a thread that you don't agree with,but yet you have to respond to every person who made a post! Did you respond in a nice way to those who disagree with you on your threads? Take it easy,its only a game!

Very telling? I am part of the CONVERSATION that Craw started. This is a DISCUSSION board. And the TOPIC happens to be one that I am involved in right now.

And yes I responded in a nice way. You'll know when it's not nice.

OF COURSE all top players have hit many balls to learn how to play, which includes aiming.

Do you honestly think that ANYONE is saying that learning an aiming system or any other technique will cause some B player to become a pro over night?

When you learn ANYTHING you still have to PRACTICE with it and get REAL COMFORTABLE with it.

I got your PM and if your story is true then you and me have action all day every day whenever we are in the same place even with no weight.

Sorry if it bothers you that there are people in the world who DON'T agree with Crawfish's point of view that he expressed in the opening post. I missed the forum rules that forbids people with a counterpoint to post.
 
I personally think most these systems are a little to complicated and create confusion for far to many. I think while a method may work for anyone, it may also only work for that individual and no one else. I suspect that there are many many factors that must be put together for a ball to fall into a hole and aiming is just a part of it. I don't think that anyone can be completely right concerning this issue unless they are being condescending, pig headed, and have a problem with the whole legend in their own mind thing. Like others have said this is a discussion forum and there can be no discussion when some people try to over shadow all others by making the most noise not stating the clear facts, come on guy's this is what Government is doing, it is called bait and switch!!!!!:)

Oh and before you ask John this is not entirely about you, your still my hero!!!:D

JIMO
 
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What is the proper way to do this? What if you didn't have to imagine (visualize) but instead could measure the line?

There are many ways, the best would be if you simply knew where the line is. What is there to measure? Even the ghostball doesn't know about collision induced throw. And when playing with english, the aiming line changes again.

How exactly do you get in line? What gets in line?

Depending on your stance, you might put your right foot (as a right hander) on the line, or your right arm, or something else. Like Cameron said, you should stand back far enough (outside the shadow), and walk into the shot. But the most important part would be the head.

After you "get in line"?

Sort of... Getting in line and into stance is one process.

So you are checking your aim when you are already down on the shot?

Yes.

So if the player does not KNOW that they are right they should keep guessing until the feel it's right?

In theory the player could repeat the steps forever and never get in line. Here I can only speak from my experience. When I'm not there on the second attempt, there is usually a flaw in my mechanics that wants to be eliminated. If this happens in the middle of a match, I have to make the best of it.
But "guessing" is hardly the correct term here, as with most shots in a pool game it is easy to see where to hit the ball. The error usually comes with a lack in concentration.


What if it it feels right but it's wrong?

I can count on one hand the number of times that happened this year. Sometimes when I have to play a tough shot, one that doesn't come up very often, I am not always sure if I am seeing the correct line. In that case, it can't feel right.

Sounds good in theory and I am sure that this approach has resulted in a lot of table time trying it out. I know I put in a lot of time on it trying to get good doing just what you said.

Now, like tonight I use my little aiming system to find the aiming line which I know is right and with it I make freaking fantastic shots because my fundamentals are there AND I am on the right aiming line.

The aiming part is the easiest of all and the whole process becomes second nature, so you can let your subconscious mind do the work. I can play pretty fast with it.
 
I wasn't talking to you.

And NO ONE who uses aiming systems has said that it's one size fits all. However you did start this thread with the specific intention of KNOCKING systems.

I sure as hell did. You're right. Because no system works the same for other people. Vision, tension, muscle strength and memory, ah hell... I don't need to explain this again. Bottom line is, people talk about their system like if you could master it, you'd be some pool guru. Sure. If you could master the behind the back, look away, and practiced it enough, it's gonna be great and would work just as well. It depends on what you master. Whatever works.

Example: If I could master using my Johnson as a cue and practiced with it ten hours a day, I'd probably get pretty proficient in pocketing balls too over the years.

By the way, I might just do that.

There are plenty of habits and methods out there. Don't try to find one solution guys. View them all and work out the best for you. Yourself. What is workable for some, is not another man's answer. Or it might be.

We've all acquired habits and muscle memory over the years (or months for you newbies). Use the best ones and try to get rid of the stupid shit. Simple. There is no formula or magic potion. Sure, certain things will help. So use what works....for you. What you want to happen is your muscle memory to work well for you when the heat is on. That's when it counts.
 
aim

i think the first thing new poolplayers need to is learn how to hold a pool cue and make a bridge with there hands/fingers properly away from the cue ball...
like golf, theres a lot to hitting the ball good.
_
Rob.M
 
I personally think most these systems are a little to complicated and create confusion for far to many. I think while a method may work for anyone, it may also only work for that individual and no one else. I suspect that there are many many factors that must be put together for a ball to fall into a hole and aiming is just a part of it. I don't think that anyone can be completely right concerning this issue unless they are being condescending, pig headed, and have a problem with the whole legend in their own mind thing. Like others have said this is a discussion forum and there can be no discussion when some people try to over shadow all others by making the most noise not stating the clear facts, come on guy's this is what Government is doing, it is called bait and switch!!!!!:)

Oh and before you ask John this is not entirely about you, your still my hero!!!:D

JIMO

What are the clear facts? The government?????

The only FACT is that everyone should be free to TRY whatever method of shooting pool that they want to without other people telling them that they are morons for considering it.

Half of the posts in these aiming system threads are people telling the people who want to talk about how to use the system that they are morons for believing that it could work and that they should just get to the table and hit a million more balls.

They want to post graphs and diagrams and talk physics to tell people why it can't work and then above all else tell them that the only way it can work is subconscious adjustment.

Well Craig, if I am subconsciously adjusting to make WAY MORE balls and tougher shots then for me it's the greatest system in pool. That's a fact.

If I want to get on here and knock anything then I hope people would disagree with me if they think I am wrong. Oh, wait, they do that all the time when I start knocking and I defend my point if I can.

As to the "bait and switch" reference......huh?????? As far as not being about me, fine but when you directly address things I wrote I can't help but think you are responding to me.
 
most people can muster enough concentration to drive to the poolroom without getting in a wreck. some can't even do that! to play pool on a better than average scale you have to put in way more concentration than driving to the room.for the higher level your thoughts have to get tight and eliminate mistakes.at the highest level your brain has to turn into a vegitable with only one thought."put ball in hole".you can train yourself to have a robot game but that can only carry you so far. if their are hidden doubt's swimming around in your head when it comes to crunch time,you will shot it right into the rail.

bill
 
What are the clear facts? The government?????

The only FACT is that everyone should be free to TRY whatever method of shooting pool that they want to without other people telling them that they are morons for considering it.

Half of the posts in these aiming system threads are people telling the people who want to talk about how to use the system that they are morons for believing that it could work and that they should just get to the table and hit a million more balls.

They want to post graphs and diagrams and talk physics to tell people why it can't work and then above all else tell them that the only way it can work is subconscious adjustment.

Well Craig, if I am subconsciously adjusting to make WAY MORE balls and tougher shots then for me it's the greatest system in pool. That's a fact.

If I want to get on here and knock anything then I hope people would disagree with me if they think I am wrong. Oh, wait, they do that all the time when I start knocking and I defend my point if I can.

As to the "bait and switch" reference......huh?????? As far as not being about me, fine but when you directly address things I wrote I can't help but think you are responding to me.



What are the clear facts?

These are very simple just because some one makes the most noise doesn't mean that they are Right, sometimes those who have the least say make the most impact and the most sense.

While I am certain you may not believe it defending point is fine, but defending your point when it was never challenged is Paranoia.

Good Night John
 
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