Pivoting and CTE

I didn't spin anything, John. I used your very own words :-)

Lou Figueroa

No actually you didn't use my words. You didn't quote me and then ask if we agreed on what I said. You wrote your own interpretation (spin) of what I said and asked me if I agreed with that.

To which the answer was no and is still no.
 
I was trying to use the Rube Goldberg analogy to describe *any* pool player getting into shooting position and hoping that all the limbs and joints -- from the feet up to their two little peepers -- all somehow perfectly align themselves, each time they drape themselves all over a pool table and try and be accurate in pocketing balls and maneuvering the cue ball with a piece of wood with a leather tip.

When you think about it, it's pretty amazing any of us make a ball :-)

Lou Figueroa

Um ok............

I STILL disagree with you that anything that the player does BEFORE they get down on the ball affects their stroke. With the EXCEPTION of getting into a position that physically inhibits their stroke.

However if I accept your explanation above of comparing the use of a "Rube Goldberg" contraption to the act of shooting pool itself then it's even more of a reason to want to use a consistent and repeatable system to shoot pool. That way the player has something dependable to focus on with every shot they take. A system put them in the same alignment, same space, same routine every shot.

We agree on this right?
 
Um ok............

I STILL disagree with you that anything that the player does BEFORE they get down on the ball affects their stroke. With the EXCEPTION of getting into a position that physically inhibits their stroke.

However if I accept your explanation above of comparing the use of a "Rube Goldberg" contraption to the act of shooting pool itself then it's even more of a reason to want to use a consistent and repeatable system to shoot pool. That way the player has something dependable to focus on with every shot they take. A system put them in the same alignment, same space, same routine every shot.

We agree on this right?

Want me to take this one Lou ??? (heh,heh)...:rotflmao1:
 
Want me to take this one Lou ??? (heh,heh)...:rotflmao1:

Go ahead. Prove to me that something you do BEFORE you get down on the ball affects how you hit the ball - ASSUMING that when you do get down you can stroke the cue freely.

Neither you nor Lou or anyone can prove any different.

IF when you get down on the shot you can stroke freely through the cueball THEN if you are on the right aiming line and IF you stroke straight you will make the ball.

It doesn't matter if you did the "gypsy rose lee" before you got down on the ball.

If you can prove otherwise then go ahead and do it.
 
... Prove to me that something you do BEFORE you get down on the ball affects how you hit the ball ...

Those match rules under which each competitor must drink a beer every game seem to have quite an effect on some people. :)
 
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Those match rules under which each competitor must drink a beer every game seem to have quite an effect on some people. :)

Sure - for some people it makes them play better. Keith McReady wouldn't be able to make a ball without the Budweiser system :-)
 
No actually you didn't use my words. You didn't quote me and then ask if we agreed on what I said. You wrote your own interpretation (spin) of what I said and asked me if I agreed with that.

To which the answer was no and is still no.


lol. I did use your words and I did quote you.

Loosen up the aluminum foil cap a bit, John. You're so wrapped around the axle on all this you can't even keep anything you said straight anymore.

Lou Figueroa
 
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lol. I did use your your words and I did quote you.

Loosen up the aluminum foil cap a bit, John. You're so wrapped around the axle on all this you can't even keep anything you said straight anymore.

Lou Figueroa

I know exactly what I said and it's not what you said I said. Not only can I keep it straight I can go back and reference it.
 
I know exactly what I said and it's not what you said I said. Not only can I keep it straight I can go back and reference it.


Be my guest. Here, let me help point you in the right direction: post #25 in this thread.

Lou Figueroa
 
Be my guest. Here, let me help point you in the right direction: post #25 in this thread.

Lou Figueroa

Once again you misinterpreted my statement and asked me if I agreed with your rewrite. The answer is no I do not agree with your interpretation of my statement.
 
I am also a ghost ball/contact point aimer, but I would very much like to have someone show me CTE. There is nothing about the game I don't want to learn, but I am necessarily agnostic about CTE at this point because I haven't been able to make it work based on what I have read. Proponents say that it is simple, especially if someone shows you the technique; unfortunately, I don't live near Spidey or any of the other CTE experts. Perhaps it would be worthwhile for us to create a "CTE Users Map" so that those of us who want to learn the system could find a nearby CTE user who would be willing to teach it. If nothing else, I will make a strong effort to corner a CTE user at the next DCC. Spidey, if you are going to be there, perhaps we could meet up?

I should also say that my major concern about CTE relates to what sfleinen said:

The problem is, for those that don't have the ability to see/envision the shot the way some of us do, simply don't understand how INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT it is to "turn it off" ("it" being the ghost ball, contact point, etc.).

I did a short, very non-scientific experiment in my basement a couple of weeks ago along these lines. I basically tried to see how screwed up (off line, off aim, strange pivots, etc.) I could make my body while I was down on a shot, and then try to make the ball anyway. For instance, on a simple 20 degree cut shot with the OB about 2' from the pocket and the CB about 2' from the OB, I would intentionally get down on a line pointing an inch or two from where I would ordinarily be, my feet and body skewed against the desired line, then I would apply various small arm and hip pivots as well as extreme spin of some sort. In the end, I was at times lined up to miss the ball completely, and I would have if I had taken a stroke along that line of aim. But I would instead just one-stroke the shot with the single thought being "pocket that ball". What I found is that, despite making these multiple, random pre-shot adjustments that should have had a very negative effect on the outcome of the shot, I continued to pocket almost all simple cut shots, as well as about 50% of the slightly more difficult cut shots I attempted. Clearly, my body was making automatic corrections, swerving stroke, etc., for the strange variances I was introducing into my aim and setup. It was a matter of my mind's eye and feel overcoming the massive problems I had introduced into my setup and aim.

I'm sure I could eventually train myself to ignore/turn off this "autopilot", but I don't know that I would want to. As I have mentioned before, aiming/pocketing balls seems to me to be the easiest part of the whole game - the part that beginners seem to become proficient at before anything else. Most of the costly mistakes I make are not due to missing balls, but due to other mistakes, so I'm not sure how far I'd be willing to go to improve ball pocketing. Not to compare myself to a professional at any sport, but I liken it to asking a pro golfer "would you mess with your swing to get another 10 yards off the tee?" A short hitter like Zach Johnson might say yes, but a bomber like Bubba Watson is going to give an emphatic "NO". I'm not a bomber at pocketing balls, but my major struggles are in other areas.

Regardless of whether I decide to use CTE as my primary aiming method, however, I am still very serious about learning it. Hopefully I can find someone to show it to me before long.

Aaron
 
Perhaps it would be worthwhile for us to create a "CTE Users Map" so that those of us who want to learn the system could find a nearby CTE user who would be willing to teach it.

I love this idea! I, too, would be willing to try this system, or any other, if I could get it shown to me. Sadly I don't get to travel very much, and certainly wouldn't be able to get the time to go to DCC or any other of the cool pool gatherings...
 
I love this idea! I, too, would be willing to try this system, or any other, if I could get it shown to me. Sadly I don't get to travel very much, and certainly wouldn't be able to get the time to go to DCC or any other of the cool pool gatherings...

See my thread titled "CTE Training Locations". Hopefully it will work, and people like us can find someone to show us the system.

Aaron
 
Why is there so much discussion about this system that would be taught by an 80 year old man over the phone?

Lots of us learned this system this way. It isn't that difficult to learn. But, IMO it isn't the answer for anything but maybe 60% of the shots that come up in any one game.

And, like any system.. even ghost ball... once you need to hit the cueball left or right of center to get spin on the cue ball, you have to adjust your aim point.

CTE is just the beginning of the learning process. There is still way more to learn to this game than just pocketing a ball consistently.

IMO No one will become a world beater learning CTE, but they can become a better ball maker.

CTE and Ghostball aiming always need a consistent stroke. No stroke.. nothing can help you...


CTE is SIMMMMMMMPLE. Offset and pivot. If someone can't understand that...back to kindergarten. The reason why the technique doc is long, is because I cover EVERYTHING in SUPER detail (overkill, imo). The reason why I chose to be so verbose is that when Hal's gone, that doc is probably the most accurate written record of the system.

Executive Summary.... very good idea. I know you were joking, but I'll do it. Thanks, Lou. I can simplify within one page with accurate info.

Dave
 
I am also a ghost ball/contact point aimer, but I would very much like to have someone show me CTE. There is nothing about the game I don't want to learn, but I am necessarily agnostic about CTE at this point because I haven't been able to make it work based on what I have read. Proponents say that it is simple, especially if someone shows you the technique; unfortunately, I don't live near Spidey or any of the other CTE experts. Perhaps it would be worthwhile for us to create a "CTE Users Map" so that those of us who want to learn the system could find a nearby CTE user who would be willing to teach it. If nothing else, I will make a strong effort to corner a CTE user at the next DCC. Spidey, if you are going to be there, perhaps we could meet up?

I should also say that my major concern about CTE relates to what sfleinen said:



I did a short, very non-scientific experiment in my basement a couple of weeks ago along these lines. I basically tried to see how screwed up (off line, off aim, strange pivots, etc.) I could make my body while I was down on a shot, and then try to make the ball anyway. For instance, on a simple 20 degree cut shot with the OB about 2' from the pocket and the CB about 2' from the OB, I would intentionally get down on a line pointing an inch or two from where I would ordinarily be, my feet and body skewed against the desired line, then I would apply various small arm and hip pivots as well as extreme spin of some sort. In the end, I was at times lined up to miss the ball completely, and I would have if I had taken a stroke along that line of aim. But I would instead just one-stroke the shot with the single thought being "pocket that ball". What I found is that, despite making these multiple, random pre-shot adjustments that should have had a very negative effect on the outcome of the shot, I continued to pocket almost all simple cut shots, as well as about 50% of the slightly more difficult cut shots I attempted. Clearly, my body was making automatic corrections, swerving stroke, etc., for the strange variances I was introducing into my aim and setup. It was a matter of my mind's eye and feel overcoming the massive problems I had introduced into my setup and aim.

I'm sure I could eventually train myself to ignore/turn off this "autopilot", but I don't know that I would want to. As I have mentioned before, aiming/pocketing balls seems to me to be the easiest part of the whole game - the part that beginners seem to become proficient at before anything else. Most of the costly mistakes I make are not due to missing balls, but due to other mistakes, so I'm not sure how far I'd be willing to go to improve ball pocketing. Not to compare myself to a professional at any sport, but I liken it to asking a pro golfer "would you mess with your swing to get another 10 yards off the tee?" A short hitter like Zach Johnson might say yes, but a bomber like Bubba Watson is going to give an emphatic "NO". I'm not a bomber at pocketing balls, but my major struggles are in other areas.

Regardless of whether I decide to use CTE as my primary aiming method, however, I am still very serious about learning it. Hopefully I can find someone to show it to me before long.

Aaron

THe sad part is as a cte-pro-one user you can't see me twisting pivoting or doing anything to contort my body. I appear to go down on the shot just like any normal player. Don't be so hung up on the pivot and the effect on your shooting arm.
 
Why is there so much discussion about this system that would be taught by an 80 year old man over the phone?

Lots of us learned this system this way. It isn't that difficult to learn. But, IMO it isn't the answer for anything but maybe 60% of the shots that come up in any one game.

And, like any system.. even ghost ball... once you need to hit the cueball left or right of center to get spin on the cue ball, you have to adjust your aim point.

CTE is just the beginning of the learning process. There is still way more to learn to this game than just pocketing a ball consistently.

IMO No one will become a world beater learning CTE, but they can become a better ball maker.

CTE and Ghostball aiming always need a consistent stroke. No stroke.. nothing can help you...

60 % really ,I am a cte user and I can tell you that I use it on 95% of shots
 
CTE can be used on 100% of shots that go directly to a pocket without anything blocking the cue ball.

And when you make shots like THIS ONE in a ring game as I did last night night

CueTable Help



And subsequently run out where running out pays double, then everyone claps and hates you at the same time.

Thank you CTE.
 
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